List Mgmt. Tim Kelly - Welcome to West Coast

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
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Not wanting to get involved in the back and forth semantics here, but a simple clarification:

Tim Kelly is not currently, nor has he been (up to this stage) one of the top 10 players in the comp.

Maybe top 10 mids. Maybe. But he's probably in the 15-25 range if you were going in order including every other position (which is basically the 75% of the competition who can't get brownlow votes as umpires focus on production rather than impact).



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Top 5 in the Brownlow, Top 5 in the CA voting. Top 2 in the AFLMVP

I stand by calling him one of the best 10 players of 2019.
 

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new breed

Premium Platinum
Sep 8, 2009
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Top 5 in the Brownlow, Top 5 in the CA voting. Top 2 in the AFLMVP

I stand by calling him one of the best 10 players of 2019.
After his WAFL years he has overachieved at Geelong after two superb seasons , I think he can continue his sparkling form but even if he doesn't Kelly will help our midfield depth / versalility and swerveability . .....so here's hoping !!
 
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kranky al

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Top 5 in the Brownlow, Top 5 in the CA voting. Top 2 in the AFLMVP

I stand by calling him one of the best 10 players of 2019.
Fantastic player stoked to have him. Easy top 10 mid.

But if you were building 2 teams from scratch and each team was allowed to pick 15 players alternating from any of the clubs then had to draft the rest i reckon hed be picked in the 10-15 range.not the top ten.

Brownlow alfca etc rewards mids.
 

flamingEMBERS

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 8, 2011
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We certainly weren't being unreasonable on the price. Given he was one of the best 10 players in the comp last season, we were actually willing to accept unders to get the trade done, as evidenced by the trade that was actually completed this year.

The bolded is my main issue. Every single thing you wrote I could apply to West Coast with equal validity.
  • You didn't want him for the price, despie the fact he needed to get home
  • West Coast prioritised the interest (not need ) of the club over the wellbeing of Kelly (You could have just handed over the picks no questions asked)
  • West Coast treated him as though he were a piece of meat to make your club stronger
  • Your club didn't help Kelly at all with it's actions, valueing numbers in a draft over Tim Kelly
  • Your club did do the same thing as Geelong. Didn't (in their mind) overpay for Tim Kelly on compassionate grounds.
You are right, I haven't had to raise kids with autism, it would be tremendously challenging. Which is why the Geelong fans I speak to wish him nothing but the best. Nobody (except the handful of nuffies we all get) hold any ill will toward Kelly. I have more respect for Tim Kelly than probably every footballer currently on a list. Honesty, integrity, professionalism; he showed that more than almost any player in particularly trying circumstances.

It doesn't change my belief that you can either be upset with both clubs for not showing enough empathy, or neither.
If you choose just one as the bad guy (some Eagles fans have chosen Geelong, while some Cats fans have chosen the Eagles, funny that), you're either deliberately or unconsciously not looking at the situation objectively.
There's been a few players recently that once requested they want to go to Geelong have stated they would retire or sit out the year right? I'd say that's an instruction from the new club to the player.

WCE and Geelong played this very differently.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
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There's been a few players recently that once requested they want to go to Geelong have stated they would retire or sit out the year right? I'd say that's an instruction from the new club to the player.

WCE and Geelong played this very differently.
That only happened un the case of Ablett, which certainly wasn’t a directive from Geelong. Like Kelly, he had very legitimate reasons to get back home.

Nobody has threatened to sit out a year.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
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Fantastic player stoked to have him. Easy top 10 mid.

But if you were building 2 teams from scratch and each team was allowed to pick 15 players alternating from any of the clubs then had to draft the rest i reckon hed be picked in the 10-15 range.not the top ten.

Brownlow alfca etc rewards mids.
I agree. Just ranking him on what he did in 2019 though, I had him as Geelong’s best and top 10 overall.
 

flamingEMBERS

Norm Smith Medallist
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That only happened un the case of Ablett, which certainly wasn’t a directive from Geelong. Like Kelly, he had very legitimate reasons to get back home.

Nobody has threatened to sit out a year.
Playing it out in the media??? Not sure our head coach acted like a child on tv either or pumped the media up. We are a professional outfit your club is still quite petty
 

CM9000

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I think you missed what that poster was trying to say. It isn’t really our prerogative to give Geelong exactly what they want. That’s what negotiations are for. At the end of the day Geelong and Geelong only are the ones capable of releasing him. By your logic, Wells can theoretically come out and say we want Yeo, Shuey and NN for Kelly and if we walk away we ”treated him as a piece of meat”.

We offered up a fairly reasonable deal (especially considering this years deal was only effectively an extra second rounder), multiple times yet Geelong failed to come to the party.. multiple times. We had our price and stuck to it, we aren’t coming out and shelling every draft pick we had for the next 5 years just so he could get home. Like I said, that’s not really our problem. We did all we realistically could and Geelong, holding most of the cards, treated him like a commodity by not releasing him over 10 pick spots.

I think the fact Kelly’s come out 12 months later and specifically requested us again speaks volumes, plus us also selling the farm this year out of respect to Kelly and his family while Geelong still drove a hard bargain. I think the way both clubs handled it are poles apart, as evidenced by Geelongs continual playing out in the media while we just made sure the deal got done fair to all parties.
Excatly this, couldn't have said it better myself.

We certainly weren't being unreasonable on the price. Given he was one of the best 10 players in the comp last season, we were actually willing to accept unders to get the trade done, as evidenced by the trade that was actually completed this year.

The bolded is my main issue. Every single thing you wrote I could apply to West Coast with equal validity.
  • You didn't want him for the price, despie the fact he needed to get home
  • West Coast prioritised the interest (not need ) of the club over the wellbeing of Kelly (You could have just handed over the picks no questions asked)
  • West Coast treated him as though he were a piece of meat to make your club stronger
  • Your club didn't help Kelly at all with it's actions, valueing numbers in a draft over Tim Kelly
  • Your club did do the same thing as Geelong. Didn't (in their mind) overpay for Tim Kelly on compassionate grounds.
You are right, I haven't had to raise kids with autism, it would be tremendously challenging. Which is why the Geelong fans I speak to wish him nothing but the best. Nobody (except the handful of nuffies we all get) hold any ill will toward Kelly. I have more respect for Tim Kelly than probably every footballer currently on a list. Honesty, integrity, professionalism; he showed that more than almost any player in particularly trying circumstances.

It doesn't change my belief that you can either be upset with both clubs for not showing enough empathy, or neither.
If you choose just one as the bad guy (some Eagles fans have chosen Geelong, while some Cats fans have chosen the Eagles, funny that), you're either deliberately or unconsciously not looking at the situation objectively.
Why does it have to be so black and white? You might call me biased, but it is possible for Geelong to be seen as somewhat distasteful in this situation. There is a distinction between the one who trades, and the one who receives the player in question; the club trading the player is the one making the decision, it is their choice whether the player goes.

Geelong were the ones who made the choice on whether Kelly goes, and they decided not to allow it. We tried to come up with the price (which you changed numerous times during the trade period, it wasn't constant for the full 10 days), and we tried to offer his value. I mean, the difference was literally 10 pick places, so I'm not sure you can claim we tried to shorthand you.

It is Geelong's decision, and that is the main point. If we paid what you (I mean you, not your club) probably think is fair, then he'd cost more tha Chris Judd. Let's not act like you were ever inclined to trade him - just look at the comments from your club.
 
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Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
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It is Geelong's decision, and that is the main point. If we paid what you (I mean you, not your club) probably think is fair, then he'd cost more tha Chris Judd. Let's not act like you were ever inclined to trade him - just look at the comments from your club.
You’ve lost it a bit there. Once you get to what I “probably think” you’ve completely lost the ability to see it objectively.
 

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Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
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Playing it out in the media??? Not sure our head coach acted like a child on tv either or pumped the media up. We are a professional outfit your club is still quite petty
What are you on about? You said a few players have threatened to sit out a year, you were wrong.
Mentioning that our coach is an unlikable campaigner or the media isn’t new, or relevant.
 

shooshka

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Oct 7, 2011
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Top 5 in the Brownlow, Top 5 in the CA voting. Top 2 in the AFLMVP

I stand by calling him one of the best 10 players of 2019.
You are entitled to your opinion, and maybe I'm a bit precious on this, but we've had a number of cats supporters going on about Kelly like he is the second coming of Chris Judd.

I just think perspective is important. He has had 2 very good years, but the 'experts' who do their top 50/100 list in preseason next year will be unlikely to have him top 10. There are players (including guys like Rance who didn't play basically in 2019) who have the track record to be put in that company. TK may get there, but isn't yet.

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ghostbat12

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Aug 17, 2009
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Top 5 in the Brownlow, Top 5 in the CA voting. Top 2 in the AFLMVP

I stand by calling him one of the best 10 players of 2019.
His and geelong’s early season form allowed for that. When it got tight and he got tagged, he wasn’t “top 10” in comp.

That’s the worry now. He can be tagged out of the game completely.
 

ghostbat12

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This is the other common argument.
There was a trade package Geelong requested that would have got the deal done. West Coast refused to give up those draft picks.
That’s in line with all the reporting done at the time, and the word coming from both clubs.

it’s just so much easier to believe “Geelong wouldn’t have traded him anyway” (despite all the reports claiming the opposite).
If that’s true,
you don’t have to reflect on your own bias, you don’t have to question if your clubs decision not to trade cost you a flag
West Coast are the good guys
Geelong are the bad guys

I get why you’d choose that, it’s a completely understandable blissful ignorance to be in.

If you’d like to accept that there was a request from Geelong that West Coast could have paid in order for Kelly to be an Eagles player 12 months ago, you’ll see there was no lack of ”good faith” from either side, just 2 club who couldn’t agree on a players value.
After Kelly trade on trade radio, vozzo confirmed that last year, Geelong asked for our first this year as well.

So Geelong fans can go and suck it.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
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His and geelong’s early season form allowed for that. When it got tight and he got tagged, he wasn’t “top 10” in comp.

That’s the worry now. He can be tagged out of the game completely.
He wasn't shut out of games completely, the only poor game he had was GWS, in which he looked like he was running underwater.
Outside his first half against Collingwood, his Finals series was excellent also.

I think his inability to handle a tag has been overrated slightly.
 

ghostbat12

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He wasn't shut out of games completely, the only poor game he had was GWS, in which he looked like he was running underwater.
Outside his first half against Collingwood, his Finals series was excellent also.

I think his inability to handle a tag has been overrated slightly.
I wouldn’t say “excellent”. Played well against Richmond, who don’t tag.

Against eagles he was very patchy. Wouldn’t call his game “excellent”. He had good games but “excellent” is stretching it.

A lot of games against bottom 6 or 7 in that stretch too.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
3,402
6,280
AFL Club
Geelong
I wouldn’t say “excellent”. Played well against Richmond, who don’t tag.

Against eagles he was very patchy. Wouldn’t call his game “excellent”. He had good games but “excellent” is stretching it.

A lot of games against bottom 6 or 7 in that stretch too.
You may not like Kelly if you didn't rate his Finals series.
Excellent is understating his game against Richmond.
The support he gave Dangerfield in the second half against Collingwood was crucial to us getting back into that game. No doubt he was well beaten in the first half.
I really liked his game against West Coast too. Although given we win so few Finals these days, I might be overrating it a touch. He wasn't prolific, but he was incredibly damaging. Got forward, had 9 score involvements, kicked 2.

That gives me context on why you think you overpaid on Kelly, I think you'll be presently surprised.
 

ghostbat12

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You may not like Kelly if you didn't rate his Finals series.
Excellent is understating his game against Richmond.
The support he gave Dangerfield in the second half against Collingwood was crucial to us getting back into that game. No doubt he was well beaten in the first half.
I really liked his game against West Coast too. Although given we win so few Finals these days, I might be overrating it a touch. He wasn't prolific, but he was incredibly damaging. Got forward, had 9 score involvements, kicked 2.

That gives me context on why you think you overpaid on Kelly, I think you'll be presently surprised.
So what you are saying is he is inconsistent, provides support only and only did well when let loose.

Sorry but for what we paid for, we expect a game changer, game breaker. Not someone who provides “support”. Someone who actually is, as you say, prolific.

Mcginity kicked 5 goals once. Handful of games with a couple of goals hardly makes him worth 2 firstS, 2 seconds.

We overpaid, it’s why your board is happy.
 

JohnW

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Oct 6, 2005
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So what you are saying is he is inconsistent, provides support only and only did well when let loose.

Sorry but for what we paid for, we expect a game changer, game breaker. Not someone who provides “support”. Someone who actually is, as you say, prolific.

Mcginity kicked 5 goals once. Handful of games with a couple of goals hardly makes him worth 2 firstS, 2 seconds.

We overpaid, it’s why your board is happy.
Stop being silly.

He played great for most of the year, and was really good in the finals I watched. Would nearly say he performed better than most of our mids over the full season and specifically finals.
 

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