List Mgmt. Tim Kelly - Welcome to West Coast

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Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
3,402
6,280
AFL Club
Geelong
So what you are saying is he is inconsistent, provides support only and only did well when let loose.

Sorry but for what we paid for, we expect a game changer, game breaker. Not someone who provides “support”. Someone who actually is, as you say, prolific.

Mcginity kicked 5 goals once. Handful of games with a couple of goals hardly makes him worth 2 firstS, 2 seconds.

We overpaid, it’s why your board is happy.
Wow.

You have absolutely no idea the quality of player you're getting.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
3,402
6,280
AFL Club
Geelong
They wouldn't of traded Kelly had they had their way. Any club in the AFL would be taking Kelly over pick 14 and 3 picks likely to be 20 +.
Spot on.

Geelong fans aren't unhappy with the trade because we had no choice but to make it, and didn't get completely screwed.
That doesn't mistake the fact every single one of us would prefer Tim Kelly, pick 52 and a future third to picks 14, 24, 37 and West Coasts future 1st.
 

ghostbat12

Club Legend
Aug 17, 2009
1,463
1,177
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Stop being silly.

He played great for most of the year, and was really good in the finals I watched. Would nearly say he performed better than most of our mids over the full season and specifically finals.
I didn’t say he was crap. All I am saying he hasnt been a game breaker that we paid for. That doesn’t mean that I think he isn’t a good player.

To me, we paid overs given that’s not what any other club would give us under same circumstances.
 

ghostbat12

Club Legend
Aug 17, 2009
1,463
1,177
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Wow.

You have absolutely no idea the quality of player you're getting.
I guess we will have to improve him to justify the trade.

My main gripe is that leverage in these things play a big part. Simple as that. Geelong use it, Richmond use it etc. We have up extra picks for nothing.

That’s all.
 

JohnW

Club Legend
Oct 6, 2005
1,234
992
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
I didn’t say he was crap. All I am saying he hasnt been a game breaker that we paid for. That doesn’t mean that I think he isn’t a good player.

To me, we paid overs given that’s not what any other club would give us under same circumstances.
You can pay overs for a gun.

Arguable Carlton paid overs for Judd (in hindsight) but it was still a great trade for them
 

Eagleboy68

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 11, 2015
5,422
5,362
AFL Club
West Coast
So what you are saying is he is inconsistent, provides support only and only did well when let loose.

Sorry but for what we paid for, we expect a game changer, game breaker. Not someone who provides “support”. Someone who actually is, as you say, prolific.

Mcginity kicked 5 goals once. Handful of games with a couple of goals hardly makes him worth 2 firstS, 2 seconds.

We overpaid, it’s why your board is happy.
Mate we didn't over pay.

We got a match winner to add to our strong midfield. We have been needing someone like Kelly for 12+ years

We got a tier level player just below Judd and Ablett.

Geelong got lots of picks that may never produce someone like Kelly. Geelong got a reasonable deal for him but would still feel a tad hard done by.

The fact that he is happier now will dramatically improve his output again in matches.

I expect us to play off in the grand final because of his addition to our team.
 

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WCE_phil

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2009
8,989
7,380
perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Mate we didn't over pay.

We got a match winner to add to our strong midfield. We have been needing someone like Kelly for 12+ years

We got a tier level player just below Judd and Ablett.

Geelong got lots of picks that may never produce someone like Kelly. Geelong got a reasonable deal for him but would still feel a tad hard done by.

The fact that he is happier now will dramatically improve his output again in matches.

I expect us to play off in the grand final because of his addition to our team.
Personally don't think Kelly is on a level with Yeo or Shuey, he's a step below and more on a rung with gaff. Great player but not a top teams number 1 mid. He wasn't the number 1 mid at Geelong and it's highly unlikely he will be here.

However having him in the side not only provides his input but also allows Gaff to play his more natural game. Allowing gaff to play his more natural game combined with Kelly could very well be worth an extra player at the level of dangerfield/fyfe/martin.

It will be very interesting to see how we move forwards with Gaff on one wing and Sheed likely on the other when they are both one sided left foot players. Does Redden play the defensive midfield role / extra mid or does he play with with sheed being the extra mid and us going head to head.

For all the talk those 3 are the ones who have consistently for the last few years been the top mids. You can argue whether or not you want to tag on bont and cripps onto that. From there you go down to guys like Shuey, Yeo etc who's absolute best is as good as any of the above but it isn't quite as consistent. Shuey has been our best mid for years and has copped a tag almost every week, anytime he doesn't cop a tag he destroys the opposition.

I'd also like a bit of ******* vindication as well now that pretty much all the information has come out through player managers and from the horses mouth in Vozzo from both our supporters and the Geelong supporters that all of the information I had pressed for the last 12 months in regards to this trade was 100% correct in what geelong wanted, how they moved the goalposts, that they wanted our first last minute. fu** them.
 

Suma Magic

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 22, 2009
22,171
23,209
AFL Club
West Coast
This is a comparison of the two scenarios using a DVI which is much better aligned to actual pick values.

It works on the basis of what we would have given up if we'd accepted the 2018 deal.

It shows that we would have been slightly worse off if we'd accepted the 2018 deal.

View attachment 764157
This is a comparison of the two scenarios using a DVI which is much better aligned to actual pick values.

It works on the basis of what we would have given up if we'd accepted the 2018 deal.

It shows that we would have been slightly worse off if we'd accepted the 2018 deal.

View attachment 764157
Or to compare side by side:

2019 first cancel out.
Swans r2 cancel out.
33 and 35 cancel out
54 and 56 cancel out.

This leaves it as:

Giving up 28 and 31

or

Giving up 2020 first but getting back pick 50.

You’d prefer to give up 28 and 31 i guess, but the difference is marginal.
 

CM9000

BigFooty Optimist
Aug 19, 2016
2,303
4,911
Perth, WA
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Fremantle
You’ve lost it a bit there. Once you get to what I “probably think” you’ve completely lost the ability to see it objectively.
No, I said it to show why you're not seeing it "objectively". Given you were willing to accept "unders" (20, 22 and a future first) for Kelly last year, we're now getting to the point where you think he should cost more than Judd. That's what I'm getting at - you're being unreasonable to begin with. I rate him just as much, but don't act like you're doing us a favour by taking us out of the first round in two drafts.

There's an equal responsibility in this sort of situation to act in good faith, and Geelong didn't. Everything from your club indicates you were unwilling to trade him, you kept changing the price during the trade period until the last minute, and ultimately Kelly didn't come home last year. Geelong were constantly trying to block the trade, which is exactly why I say you had no intention of ever letting him go.

Show me the article where your club says it is empathetic to Kelly, without mentioning reasons as to why he shouldn't come here.
 

Ricky Vaughn

Premiership Player
Feb 9, 2015
3,402
6,280
AFL Club
Geelong
No, I said it to show why you're not seeing it "objectively". Given you were willing to accept "unders" (20, 22 and a future first) for Kelly last year, we're now getting to the point where you think he should cost more than Judd. That's what I'm getting at - you're being unreasonable to begin with. I rate him just as much, but don't act like you're doing us a favour by taking us out of the first round in two drafts.
We're not doing you any favours, you aren't doing us any favours. Pick 20, 22 and a future first rounder was his trade value at the end of 2018 (my opinion). Geelong were willing to accept that but West Coast weren't willing to part with that. Given his 2019 form and what the subsequent trade become, that initial valuation was unders. I've got no idea why you're bringing up Judd. I, nor does anyone, think he should cost more than Judd. pick 20, pick 22 and a late first isn't anywhere close to pick 3, pick 4 and pick 20.

There's an equal responsibility in this sort of situation to act in good faith, and Geelong didn't. Everything from your club indicates you were unwilling to trade him, you kept changing the price during the trade period until the last minute, and ultimately Kelly didn't come home last year. Geelong were constantly trying to block the trade, which is exactly why I say you had no intention of ever letting him go.
We're right back on the same page with the bolded. equal responsibility to act in good faith, equal responsibility to get the trade done, but absolutely 0 responsibility to accept less, or pay more, than what you value a player at. Although given you think we acted in bad faith, it's good to know you're on Geelong's side with the Jack Steven trade.
It's also been well established Geelong weren't unwilling to let him go. Extremely hesitant, yes, but unwilling? Both clubs have confirmed that wasn't the case. This "constant shifting the goal posts" narrative has come primarily from the West in an effort to save some embarrassment for not getting the trade done.

Show me the article where your club says it is empathetic to Kelly, without mentioning reasons as to why he shouldn't come here.
I won't be searching for articles. I don't find the public back and fourth to show any more or less empathy from either club. Given both clubs agree, and all the reporters agree there was an offer on the table West Coast could have accepted, I'm happy with that.
 

ghostbat12

Club Legend
Aug 17, 2009
1,463
1,177
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Mate we didn't over pay.

We got a match winner to add to our strong midfield. We have been needing someone like Kelly for 12+ years

We got a tier level player just below Judd and Ablett.

Geelong got lots of picks that may never produce someone like Kelly. Geelong got a reasonable deal for him but would still feel a tad hard done by.

The fact that he is happier now will dramatically improve his output again in matches.

I expect us to play off in the grand final because of his addition to our team.
I am not sure if you need to produce someone like kelly to say those picks are a success.

If they produce even a rataguolea and constanable, it’s a win. We gave them a lot of free swings.

Our issue with not making grand final had nothing to do with having or not having Kelly.

Lack of forward pressure and a backline that can’t defend 1 on 1 was well documented. We do need midfielders but that’s not the only issue sorry to say.
 

Miguel Sanchez

Say hello!
Aug 10, 2006
35,651
34,329
Shandong Gold Stadium
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Black Ducks, SAS, NYR, BEARS
Still a bitter few persist, latest is we're somehow in cahoots with TK's manager in an underhanded salary cap rort...:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

View attachment 764295
They’re still going in for the conspiracy theories I see.

Just can’t see why a player would be motivated to choose one club over a neighbouring club, unless that neighbouring club is more than an hour’s drive away of course.
 

Tugga27

Club Legend
Jun 19, 2017
1,926
2,725
AFL Club
West Coast
I didn’t say he was crap. All I am saying he hasnt been a game breaker that we paid for. That doesn’t mean that I think he isn’t a good player.

To me, we paid overs given that’s not what any other club would give us under same circumstances.
He has absolutely been a game breaker.

TBH, I don't know what else you expect him to do.
Played a really good finals series.
Runner up in the B&F, AA and 5th in the Brownlow.

Whether or not you think we overpaid or not, does have any bearing on Kelly's abilty.
 

Tugga27

Club Legend
Jun 19, 2017
1,926
2,725
AFL Club
West Coast
Personally don't think Kelly is on a level with Yeo or Shuey, he's a step below and more on a rung with gaff. Great player but not a top teams number 1 mid. He wasn't the number 1 mid at Geelong and it's highly unlikely he will be here.
In the 2 years I've watched Kelly play, he's absolutely on the same level as Shuey and Yeo.

You're comparing him to Danger who like it or not, is one of the all time great midfielders of the last decade.
 

eagles rule

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 8, 2007
10,342
5,187
WESTERN AUSTRALIA
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
LAKERS Now
He has absolutely been a game breaker.

TBH, I don't know what else you expect him to do.
Played a really good finals series.
Runner up in the B&F, AA and 5th in the Brownlow.

Whether or not you think we overpaid or not, does have any bearing on Kelly's abilty.
I think we overpaid slightly but I’m happy to get the deal done if it means we get Kelly into the Blue and Gold ..


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Eagleboy68

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 11, 2015
5,422
5,362
AFL Club
West Coast
I am not sure if you need to produce someone like kelly to say those picks are a success.

If they produce even a rataguolea and constanable, it’s a win. We gave them a lot of free swings.

Our issue with not making grand final had nothing to do with having or not having Kelly.

Lack of forward pressure and a backline that can’t defend 1 on 1 was well documented. We do need midfielders but that’s not the only issue sorry to say.
Well geeezzzz


Fold the club
 

Eagleboy68

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 11, 2015
5,422
5,362
AFL Club
West Coast
We're not doing you any favours, you aren't doing us any favours. Pick 20, 22 and a future first rounder was his trade value at the end of 2018 (my opinion). Geelong were willing to accept that but West Coast weren't willing to part with that. Given his 2019 form and what the subsequent trade become, that initial valuation was unders. I've got no idea why you're bringing up Judd. I, nor does anyone, think he should cost more than Judd. pick 20, pick 22 and a late first isn't anywhere close to pick 3, pick 4 and pick 20.



We're right back on the same page with the bolded. equal responsibility to act in good faith, equal responsibility to get the trade done, but absolutely 0 responsibility to accept less, or pay more, than what you value a player at. Although given you think we acted in bad faith, it's good to know you're on Geelong's side with the Jack Steven trade.
It's also been well established Geelong weren't unwilling to let him go. Extremely hesitant, yes, but unwilling? Both clubs have confirmed that wasn't the case. This "constant shifting the goal posts" narrative has come primarily from the West in an effort to save some embarrassment for not getting the trade done.



I won't be searching for articles. I don't find the public back and fourth to show any more or less empathy from either club. Given both clubs agree, and all the reporters agree there was an offer on the table West Coast could have accepted, I'm happy with that.
Sad to say you are showing more level headedness than some of our supporters.
 

Coasters7

Premiership Player
Nov 27, 2014
3,867
4,859
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Chelsea
I am not sure if you need to produce someone like kelly to say those picks are a success.

If they produce even a rataguolea and constanable, it’s a win. We gave them a lot of free swings.

Our issue with not making grand final had nothing to do with having or not having Kelly.

Lack of forward pressure and a backline that can’t defend 1 on 1 was well documented. We do need midfielders but that’s not the only issue sorry to say.
Valid points with it not being our only issue.. but the picks we gave up probably aren’t going to fix the forward pressure and 1v1 defending, at least not within the next 3-5 years. Forward pressure and backline defending won’t be as much of an issue when we’re potentially winning clearances and inside 50s by 10+ per game. We’re backing ourselves in, if we don’t get a flag it’s a fail, if we do it was the right call. I remember what happened last time we backed ourselves in...
 

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