List Mgmt. Time to demand Reid and Co. to be sacked.

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Crow Envy

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Realistically, the stuff you mention really isn't that big.

Keath was about right. Betts was probably one year too long and Sloane will be - but that happens with your key veterans.

Jenkins was the right contract and the right length - the issue, really, was keeping him at all. Jenkins isn't cooked physically, he just isn't a person teams want anymore.

Every side has small things like this. His wins far outweigh it.
Of course they aren’t that big when your position is to defend the club at all costs, they all seem minor.
 

Thetrader15

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Why Davis LOL? you don't think he will be let go or no big deal paying out a contract?

I've noticed in your defence of Reid you are loose with the truth.

For Keath we received pick 45 and their 2020 pick, which is likely to be about 30, but we gave back our 2020 third rounder which will likely be about 40. So for a bloke they gave a 4 year deal on reasonable money we walked away with a third rounder and a slight pick upgrade, that's poor.

Gibbs you are hearing? Where from? Even if it is this year, we are paying him $$ and we could have reshuffled contracts and freed up cap for next year by bringing $$ into this year.

Jenkins was sh*t and you like to blame Noble for this one which is bulldust.

No mention of Betts? Sloane on 5 years? Greenwood?

Reid's performance is definitely worthy of scrutiny, some good deals but a heap of poor decisions.

Also pick 30 for Hately is one big LOL
Davis's deal of 2 years on min wage is fine - if list spots are being reduced, then he will see out the contract. Unfortunately Justin Reid didn't forecast Covid-19 and potential list size drops. mark that down as a fail if you wish.

Keath - yes, you're right > Keath, 40 for 30, 45. Still a second round pick which as the value. So he is offered a huge deal from the dogs, what would you propose, we match a 4 year deal for a 28yo who has played 30 games?

I'm not 'blaming' the Jenkins deal on Noble, I'm saying it wasn't like Reid was doing a Trigg and just signing these guys up without approval from above, and there was no issue with his playing ability or longevity. It's the off field stuff that didn't work. When was he signed again, 2016?

Betts - the deal was a year too long, but no mention from you of getting him as a FA on AFL ave wage...????
Greenwood - again, a fringe player who is 28 and offered a 4 year deal - that's worse than offering Gibbs a 4 year deal, but he was a much better player.

No mention of signing up Milera, Jones, Himmelberg, ROB on a 2 year deal when Sauce was still the #1 ruck...
 

Thetrader15

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Of course they aren’t that big when your position is to defend the club at all costs, they all seem minor.
No list manager is going to get every deal 100% correct, especially when your football department screws up your team culture and then you go into rebuild moments half way through the deals you signed after being told we are in the window.

Who do you see as the best list manager? Port??? I'll point out just as many bad contracts they have there.

Reid's position should be under review, like all positions. However, he is nowhere close to being shown the door.
 

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ABAB

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If that's the case (and I don't doubt it at all) they would have been the highest paid defender and forward on our list respectively.

Wow those trade's look bad for opposing teams. Just goes to show how important it is to develop your own KP players. Going after them in trade is risky business!
Confirmed by Gawn when he had joke about the money both Lever and May got when they were both out injured and they should pay for all their trips. I can understand the money they gave May given he had already been establish but not Lever.
 

Vhaluus

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No list manager is going to get every deal 100% correct, especially when your football department screws up your team culture and then you go into rebuild moments half way through the deals you signed after being told we are in the window.

Who do you see as the best list manager? Port??? I'll point out just as many bad contracts they have there.

Reid's position should be under review, like all positions. However, he is nowhere close to being shown the door.
How many bad contracts do Richmond have over that time period? How about Geelong?
 

adelaidecrows

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Confirmed by Gawn when he had joke about the money both Lever and May got when they were both out injured and they should pay for all their trips. I can understand the money they gave May given he had already been establish but not Lever.
Absolutely. Lever is just your average intercept marking player. He isn't a star but just a good soldier. Terrible decision by all except Adelaide who let him go. Smart.

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CrowsB4hoes

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Didn't we employ a US draft expert to help with the live trading. Also have that guy (whose name escapes me) who is our analytics guy and seems a bit of a nerd, in a good way.
 

adelaidecrows

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Of course they aren’t that big when your position is to defend the club at all costs, they all seem minor.
Made a grandfinal just 3 seasons ago. When you are winning and building clubs will always look after those players. It's easy to criticize from the cheap seats looking at the benefit of hindsight but for all we knew after 2017 was we were going to press for a couple of extra seasons. Salary cap management is always going to haunt any rebuild because they come on quick.

If anything our list management has actually proven to be pretty good. After all the players we lost our list has enormous upside. May not be finals bound next year but damn our list and a bucket load of draft picks in the top 30 including potentially 3 top 10 picks. We will have the most exciting list in the comp. The salary cap will ease off after this year too. So the club moving forward is excellently set up and our list management excellence has really cushioned the blow of a needed rebuild. So calling for people sacking is just living under old misconceptions that aren't actual reality.

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Danger_zone

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Vhaluus

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Binuk Kodituwakku - Head of Analytics (going by his LinkedIn profile).
"Keane and Kodituwakku specialise in player analytics and help remove bias in their clubs' list management decisions "

Well he's done a ******* sh*t job of that.

(I'm being sarcastic, if he's anything like most people who work in analytics he puts together all the evidence only to be promptly ignored by his bosses)
 

Crow Envy

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Davis's deal of 2 years on min wage is fine - if list spots are being reduced, then he will see out the contract. Unfortunately Justin Reid didn't forecast Covid-19 and potential list size drops. mark that down as a fail if you wish.

Keath - yes, you're right > Keath, 40 for 30, 45. Still a second round pick which as the value. So he is offered a huge deal from the dogs, what would you propose, we match a 4 year deal for a 28yo who has played 30 games?

I'm not 'blaming' the Jenkins deal on Noble, I'm saying it wasn't like Reid was doing a Trigg and just signing these guys up without approval from above, and there was no issue with his playing ability or longevity. It's the off field stuff that didn't work. When was he signed again, 2016?

Betts - the deal was a year too long, but no mention from you of getting him as a FA on AFL ave wage...????
Greenwood - again, a fringe player who is 28 and offered a 4 year deal - that's worse than offering Gibbs a 4 year deal, but he was a much better player.

No mention of signing up Milera, Jones, Himmelberg, ROB on a 2 year deal when Sauce was still the #1 ruck...
Ben Davis was drafted in 2016, meaning 2019 was his third year, we gave him another 2 years without having seen him play a game. Since then he's played 2. Whether its minimum wage or not, its still salary cap and a list spot taken up.

Keath, now you're just playing games with the value we received for him. Could we have re-signed him earlier for 3? Why did we draft him late, spend time developing him only to let him walk for peanuts? As for the contract, do you know if there are triggers for the 4th year?

Jenkins playing sucked last year, he still had 2 more years!!! He was another one that we could have re-signed earlier on a less a contract.

Reid had nothing to do with picking up Betts.

Greenwood is on record stating he wanted 3 years earlier in the year, we didn't present him a contract. His 4 years at Gold Coast comes with a trigger. Similar to Keath, when you draft them late, develop them and don't expect to have them older, whats the point in the first place?

You really want me to acknowledge standard player re-signings? Are you that desperate to pat him on the back?

Also I have not said he should be sacked, I've said he deserves scrutiny and I have given you plenty of valid examples why.
 

Thetrader15

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Ben Davis was drafted in 2016, meaning 2019 was his third year, we gave him another 2 years without having seen him play a game. Since then he's played 2. Whether its minimum wage or not, its still salary cap and a list spot taken up.

Keath, now you're just playing games with the value we received for him. Could we have re-signed him earlier for 3? Why did we draft him late, spend time developing him only to let him walk for peanuts? As for the contract, do you know if there are triggers for the 4th year?

Jenkins playing sucked last year, he still had 2 more years!!! He was another one that we could have re-signed earlier on a less a contract.

Reid had nothing to do with picking up Betts.

Greenwood is on record stating he wanted 3 years earlier in the year, we didn't present him a contract. His 4 years at Gold Coast comes with a trigger. Similar to Keath, when you draft them late, develop them and don't expect to have them older, whats the point in the first place?

You really want me to acknowledge standard player re-signings? Are you that desperate to pat him on the back?

Also I have not said he should be sacked, I've said he deserves scrutiny and I have given you plenty of valid examples why.
Greenwood and Keath (probably Jenkins too) are great examples of a club going for mature age recruits when they feel they are in contention in the next 3-4 years. Keath and Greenwood also cost nothing as rookies picks, so if you are talking value, they have given us value, they cost us peanuts and we walked away with cashews.

If those two blokes were available to pick up now with our current list, then I'd be against picking them up.

On Jenkins, check his stats and let's check the facts - pretty similar to his 2017 season.
2019 averages
11 games
9 kicks
3 HB
5 marks
2 goals
1.5 points
6 HO
1.6 tackles

2017
21 games
9 kicks
4 HB
5 marks
2.1 goals
1.5 points
5 HO
2.5 tackles
 

Thetrader15

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How many bad contracts do Richmond have over that time period? How about Geelong?
Richmond - Rance, Ellis (what did they end up getting for him?), let Butler go for peanuts, Dustin Martin on $1.3m per year and contracted until he is 33, let's see how that plays out.

Geelong have been quite good IIRC as they don't offer long contracts, but still manage to get players to stay...why is that????
Steven Motlop was a RFA and did 3/5 of nothing, gave away a first for Lachie Henderson, Varcoe for Mitch Clark.
 

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Mego Red

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Reid probably shouldn't have given Davis a two year extension, even at minimum wage. It's not like anyone else wanted him.

We as a club probably shouldn't have re-signed Jenkins, though we did it for less than he was being offered by Brisbane and he was really delivering for a premiership quality team at the time. Still, he's a flog and we should have seen it as clearly as we did Lever and McGovern.

I think the Gibbs deal ultimately hasn't hurt us that much, but that's largely due to the drafting, not the skill in the trade. Admittedly, getting the first pick in the 2nd round of the superdraft was a bonus.

The Betts deal is fine. Good even - he was a great ambassador for the club and him having a final year at Carlton is annoying but fine.

Obviously, the real masterstroke of Reid has been the value he's gotten for players who were leaving, and the value he's gotten in pickswaps. That's been very good.
 

Thetrader15

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"Keane and Kodituwakku specialise in player analytics and help remove bias in their clubs' list management decisions "

Well he's done a ******* sh*t job of that.

(I'm being sarcastic, if he's anything like most people who work in analytics he puts together all the evidence only to be promptly ignored by his bosses)
So, what do you think of Dustin Martin's 7 year deal fro $1.3m which will end when he is 33?
 

Thetrader15

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Reid probably shouldn't have given Davis a two year extension, even at minimum wage. It's not like anyone else wanted him.

We as a club probably shouldn't have re-signed Jenkins, though we did it for less than he was being offered by Brisbane and he was really delivering for a premiership quality team at the time. Still, he's a flog and we should have seen it as clearly as we did Lever and McGovern.

I think the Gibbs deal ultimately hasn't hurt us that much, but that's largely due to the drafting, not the skill in the trade. Admittedly, getting the first pick in the 2nd round of the superdraft was a bonus.

The Betts deal is fine. Good even - he was a great ambassador for the club and him having a final year at Carlton is annoying but fine.

Obviously, the real masterstroke of Reid has been the value he's gotten for players who were leaving, and the value he's gotten in pickswaps. That's been very good.
I'd add I personally wouldn't have signed Kelly or MacKay last year before Nicks was appointed. I thought that could wait, but assume we had that many other players to move on that forced our hand a bit here. Also agree on Davis, who I don't think will make it.
 

Vhaluus

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Reid probably shouldn't have given Davis a two year extension, even at minimum wage. It's not like anyone else wanted him.

We as a club probably shouldn't have re-signed Jenkins, though we did it for less than he was being offered by Brisbane and he was really delivering for a premiership quality team at the time. Still, he's a flog and we should have seen it as clearly as we did Lever and McGovern.

I think the Gibbs deal ultimately hasn't hurt us that much, but that's largely due to the drafting, not the skill in the trade. Admittedly, getting the first pick in the 2nd round of the superdraft was a bonus.

The Betts deal is fine. Good even - he was a great ambassador for the club and him having a final year at Carlton is annoying but fine.

Obviously, the real masterstroke of Reid has been the value he's gotten for players who were leaving, and the value he's gotten in pickswaps. That's been very good.
...I actually find myself agreeing with this post
 

Vhaluus

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So, what do you think of Dustin Martin's 7 year deal fro $1.3m which will end when he is 33?
That if they didn't do it the likely lose their flag window immediately with how reliant on him they are.

Still it's a big risk, no question.

I think the big question mark that might sway if it was a good deal or not is the weighting.

I assume its back weighted which could really come to cause the Tigers issues in the future and means they might lose a future gun because they can't pay him.
 

Scorpus

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At lot of clubs have star players signed up to very long deals.

Dustin Martin - signed until 33 and mentioned here already

Patrick Dangerfield - signed to 2024, where he will be 34

Stephen Coniglio - signed until 2026, where he'll be 32-33

Rory Sloane - signed with us until he's 33

Lance Franklin - still signed for 2 more years, taking him to 35

Charlie Dixon (dubious use of star) - signed until he's 32-33

Signing guys like Betts and Sloane to these deals is not unusual. The issue is giving huge contracts to guys like Josh Jenkins or Bryce Gibbs
 

Danger_zone

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"Keane and Kodituwakku specialise in player analytics and help remove bias in their clubs' list management decisions "

Well he's done a ******* sh*t job of that.

(I'm being sarcastic, if he's anything like most people who work in analytics he puts together all the evidence only to be promptly ignored by his bosses)
They only take it into account if the 'data' helps support their (bias) decision making.
 

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How many bad contracts do Richmond have over that time period? How about Geelong?
You probley picked the wrse towo clubs to use as an example,
7 year deal for Tom Lynch with a heavly back load contract, Last year reported to be 1.5million, he will be 32 in his last year
Dustan Martian 7 year deal 33 when he finishes, Richmond also Lock away Trent Cotchim 4 years, (32 last year 2022), and there more
Dangerfield recieve a 5 year deal will be 34 in his last year 2024, Cat have also perviouly signed long term deals for Selwood 5 year deal (33 in his last year 2021), Tom Hawkins 5 year deal ( 32 in his last year 2020) and Mark Blicavs 5 ear deal (31 in his last year 2022) Mitch Ducan 4 year deal (32 in his last year 2023).
 

King Elvis

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At lot of clubs have star players signed up to very long deals.

Dustin Martin - signed until 33 and mentioned here already

Patrick Dangerfield - signed to 2024, where he will be 34

Stephen Coniglio - signed until 2026, where he'll be 32-33

Rory Sloane - signed with us until he's 33

Lance Franklin - still signed for 2 more years, taking him to 35

Charlie Dixon (dubious use of star) - signed until he's 32-33

Signing guys like Betts and Sloane to these deals is not unusual. The issue is giving huge contracts to guys like Josh Jenkins or Bryce Gibbs
I love Sloane, and the length of contract for him I can accept as a risk taken for cultural reasons - but I wouldn't compare him to Dangerfield or Martin to justify the length of the contract.
 

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