Roast Time to drop the pointless aggression from games

[Fadge]

I'm somewhere between "never played in my life" and Leigh Matthews. If you don't think my posts warrant your attention, feel free to use the ignore function.

I wouldn't even know where the ignore button is.

That function is for people like you who can't handle alternate views in life.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I wouldn't even know where the ignore button is.

That function is for people like you who can't handle alternate views in life.

I wouldn't have thought the Big Footy main board would be the place for someone like that.

I don't know, maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe if we backtracked it might help create a more constructive discussion. Where is the value in not stamping out the pre game 'show of strength' pushing and shoving, often instigated by a team that put in an insipid performance the previous week? What is the benefit in letting players get away scot free with a cheap shot shove to the back of an opponent who's just made a clanger?

Maybe this sort of stuff gets some people's blood pumping, but I'm a bit more "cut the crap and get on with it, you knobs" when I see these theatrics, whether it's my team or someone else.

 

[Multicoloured Hippo]

I wouldn't have thought the Big Footy main board would be the place for someone like that.

I don't know, maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe if we backtracked it might help create a more constructive discussion. Where is the value in not stamping out the pre game 'show of strength' pushing and shoving, often instigated by a team that put in an insipid performance the previous week? What is the benefit in letting players get away scot free with a cheap shot shove to the back of an opponent who's just made a clanger?

Maybe this sort of stuff gets some people's blood pumping, but I'm a bit more "cut the crap and get on with it, you knobs" when I see these theatrics, whether it's my team or someone else.

It doesn't get my blood pumping either. It just is. It exists, it always will. Sometimes it's funny sometimes it's petulant but it is our game. Accept it or don't watch, simple.

 

[CheapCharlie]

It doesn't get my blood pumping either. It just is. It exists, it always will. Sometimes it's funny sometimes it's petulant but it is our game. Accept it or don't watch, simple.

It has already changed, from overtly aggressive punching/shoving/punching/grabbing/pulling, to pulling/pushing with a an eye that the camera is always watching. It will get to the stage that players stop when it is viewed by the wider public as the childish antics that they are.
Look back in the 70s and 80s at the type of cheap and nasty stuff that was going on. The type of stuff that would see charged with assualt these days. How many guys here , today , would defend the behavior's back then?
"Hey son, this is what a man does. He punches the other player from behind, adds his elbow to his jaw, comes in swinging, it's okay to knock a player unconscious son, its all part of this wonderful game".

 

[Grrr]

Written like someone who has never played the game at any level, ever.

Really. I remember football back in the 70's and 80', I played VFL in those times and it was pretty hard, but I never saw anyone ever get stuck into someone other than a few verbals because they got beaten on a one-on-one or dropped a mark. They let their football do the talking and there was plenty of opportunity to even up if you felt the need. Young players coming in and mouthing off or rubbing it in if a veteran makes a mistake amazes me. You've been there 5 minutes. I hate all this false bravado, school boy stuff. Nobody can even up now, that is the difference, in the old days do that at your peril.

 

[Multicoloured Hippo]

It has already changed, from overtly aggressive punching/shoving/punching/grabbing/pulling, to pulling/pushing with a an eye that the camera is always watching. It will get to the stage that players stop when it is viewed by the wider public as the childish antics that they are.
Look back in the 70s and 80s at the type of cheap and nasty stuff that was going on. The type of stuff that would see charged with assualt these days. How many guys here , today , would defend the behavior's back then?
"Hey son, this is what a man does. He punches the other player from behind, adds his elbow to his jaw, comes in swinging, it's okay to knock a player unconscious son, its all part of this wonderful game".

The thread is about niggle, not all in brawls. Pointless post. It's not going away, deal with it.

 

[JackFlash]

It's a body contact sport in name only in 2021, we all want body contact, but the AFL shy away from acknowledging it anymore. The Bump is dead, it's impossible to execute it without putting the head at risk and the AFL can't have their cake and eat it too. You can't just say " make sure you don't hit the head"? That cannot be done without any assurance, it's impossible, the Bump is dead! The natural aggression is what makes for the crowd excitment as two teams go battling it out for 2 hours, if that goes then where are we? What sort of a game do we have? The AFL has already banned the slam tackle, the sliding rule and the bump is history, does all body contact go next? It's already a vastly different game to what it was ten years ago, there is very little similarity to the wonderful game we had in the 70s, 80s and 90s! George Orwell once made the observation, (The Sporting Spirit ) "Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence; in other words it is war minus the shooting." This was true of Aussie Rules in the latter half of the 20th century to a certain extent, players were rigorously comeptitve, but the game has changed dramatically since 2000, it's a made for TV product and people don't want to spill their tea on the couch while watching a game!

 

[CheapCharlie]

The thread is about niggle, not all in brawls. Pointless post. It's not going away, deal with it.

The thread is about aggression, the clue is the title where it says "pointless aggression"

 

[Multicoloured Hippo]

The thread is about aggression, the clue is the title where it says "pointless aggression"

Posting brawls from 1970-2000 are irrelevant. Get a grip.

 

[CheapCharlie]

Posting brawls from 1970-2000 are irrelevant. Get a grip.

But isn't the past the very thing the old timers want to keep about the game?
Given that, Id say the brawls and thuggery of the past are prime evidence of the game they want to see'.

 

[Grrr]

But isn't the past the very thing the old timers want to keep about the game?
Given that, Id say the brawls and thuggery of the past are prime evidence of the game they want to see'.

Not me, I have no problem with brawls, sling tackles, high hits being taken out of the game. Us Neaderthals have softened and whilst it was 'spectacular' of sorts, it was horrific at the same time. But I still hate the idiotic aggression of when someone is set upon for making a mistake in the guise of getting inside their heads. That is when the Neaderthal does want some revenge as it is so faux tough.

 

[Fadge]

Not me, I have no problem with brawls, sling tackles, high hits being taken out of the game. Us Neaderthals have softened and whilst it was 'spectacular' of sorts, it was horrific at the same time. But I still hate the idiotic aggression of when someone is set upon for making a mistake in the guise of getting inside their heads. That is when the Neaderthal does want some revenge as it is so faux tough.

That's the way of these fellows...

'What, you're happy for aggression to remain in our game? So that means you're ok with this:'

<Insert clip of Barry Hall swinging an elbow at Brent Staker off the ball>

They are unbelievable.

 

[Grrr]

It doesn't get my blood pumping either. It just is. It exists, it always will. Sometimes it's funny sometimes it's petulant but it is our game. Accept it or don't watch, simple.

But it hasn't always existed. It has crept into the game in the last few years in particular. Of course there was always an element but it is a pathetic look these days. Try that in the old days and you opened yourself up as a target, not suggesting that is the right recourse, but that is why it didn't happen. There were always the Brereton types that ruffled feathers, but he left himself open for it and copped it and dished it out, but mostly footballers went about their work without all the pretend tough stuff.

 

[Grrr]

It's strange, i was wondering about the guys here defending aggression and bullying as being somehow a manly trait, how they must be in the physical world
Are they the same curled up balls of anger and resentment as they present on these threads?

Well I think you are being a bit zealous to link all that faux bullying that has crept into AFL, hardly your normal workplace, with general bullying and treatment of women etc. These blokes all get on well off the field, go home to their families not all curled up in anger, but it is a tough place where you have to be brave to set foot on an afl field. But I agree, all that gang bullying is crap.

 

[ant22]

The game is fine. It’s a warrior sport. If it upsets, don’t watch it.

Warriors don't niggle other players with tough guy antics. 20 or more years ago you tried that crap on and you would get belted. It's not tough and they only do it because they know there is no consequences. Put your head over the ball, going back with the flight of the ball and putting your body in harms way to win the ball is what warriors do. There is absolutely nothing tough about niggling.

 

[ferball]

I'm not, I'm just saying it definitely can't be helping.

The other point so many are missing is that we took the stupid niggle, the elbows in the guts off the play, the push and shove, if we took all that out of the game it would not change the game we are missing one bit, not at all!!
The AFL are already trying to stamp out players blatantly trying to hurt other players (Danger) but I personally think they missed a trick with not suspending the two players for throwing elbows to the players behind them.

All that stuff (elbows and pushes etc) when done right gives you a split second advantage over an opponent. Its all part of dominating space. Furthermore it tires them out over the course of a game. Removing that would change the game. It would make it subtly easier.

Its an aggressive contact sport where you have to win contests but also hold your ground and maintain control over space. FFS

 

[captain blood 17]

Warriors don't niggle other players with tough guy antics. 20 or more years ago you tried that crap on and you would get belted. It's not tough and they only do it because they know there is no consequences. Put your head over the ball, going back with the flight of the ball and putting your body in harms way to win the ball is what warriors do. There is absolutely nothing tough about niggling.

It's still a warrior sport. We are asking people to do extraordinary things out there on the field.

 

[Grrr]

All that stuff (elbows and pushes etc) when done right gives you a split second advantage over an opponent. Its all part of dominating space. Furthermore it tires them out over the course of a game. Removing that would change the game. It would make it subtly easier.

Its an aggressive contact sport where you have to win contests but also hold your ground and maintain control over space. FFS

It's not about that, Garry Hocking was the master of that stuff and he was great at it. I remember a few years ago Rance fumbled the ball over the line and was mobbed by about 4 swans players who all piled on top of him for what. They'd played about 4 games between them. It happens all the time. At least Mark Jackson made you laugh or shake your head when he did it.

 

[CheapCharlie]

Well I think you are being a bit zealous to link all that faux bullying that has crept into AFL, hardly your normal workplace, with general bullying and treatment of women etc. These blokes all get on well off the field, go home to their families not all curled up in anger, but it is a tough place where you have to be brave to set foot on an afl field. But I agree, all that gang bullying is crap.

I'm making a hyperbolous point that why defend violence, bullying, aggression on the field (and the AFL field is a wokplace) but for most people that behavior is not acceptable off the field in their everyday life and interactions.

 

[Fadge]

It's not about that, Garry Hocking was the master of that stuff and he was great at it. I remember a few years ago Rance fumbled the ball over the line and was mobbed by about 4 swans players who all piled on top of him for what. They'd played about 4 games between them. It happens all the time.

Right. So it was OK for Garry Hocking to do it, but not a couple of young upstarts when they want to do it to Alex Rance?

Come on. What's wrong with a big of youthful exuberance or arrogance on a football field?

Should we introduce a minimum number of games played/AFL achievements before you should be considered worthy of said 'aggression'?

Oh boy.

 

[ferball]

It's not about that, Garry Hocking was the master of that stuff and he was great at it. I remember a few years ago Rance fumbled the ball over the line and was mobbed by about 4 swans players who all piled on top of him for what. They'd played about 4 games between them. It happens all the time. At least Mark Jackson made you laugh or shake your head when he did it.

Fake tough guy s**t is pissweak sure. But alot of that stuff wasn't then. Same in Rugby League. Every time a player was tackled they'd be worked over. Mostly to the body (and I do get the need to protect people from concussion) but it doesn't happen anymore. Have a few mates who played first grade NRL or whatever it was in the 80s and they say its nothing like what it was. And footy obviously isn't either (and its not all a bad thing. Cheap shots and late hits are not real good at any point in history.)

It does change the character of the game and it takes away from the essential toughness and courage needed to play. It also makes the will to win a contest less important. IE The aggression to win a contest but also for the less aggressive players the resolve and inner strength not to be phased or psychologically intimidated by someone else's aggression. It makes the contest less primal, less about two (or more) people fighting to win the ball in play. Standing there on the line of the CC trading minor elbows to the midsection as the umps prepare for the ball up helps shape how the next contest pans out. Timing it so you get the good hit in as the ball is on the move and an extra metre or two on your opponent while absorbing their "pressure".

Removing that makes that contest less important, less primal and more mediated by stupid rules.

Even tho once upon a time that primal contest was, for lack of a better term, the fundamental unit of our game.

 

[ferball]

I wouldn't have thought the Big Footy main board would be the place for someone like that.

I don't know, maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe if we backtracked it might help create a more constructive discussion. Where is the value in not stamping out the pre game 'show of strength' pushing and shoving, often instigated by a team that put in an insipid performance the previous week? What is the benefit in letting players get away scot free with a cheap shot shove to the back of an opponent who's just made a clanger?

Maybe this sort of stuff gets some people's blood pumping, but I'm a bit more "cut the crap and get on with it, you knobs" when I see these theatrics, whether it's my team or someone else.

When I played footy i didn't usually do that sort of thing, but loved it when other people did to me cos it was good motivation.

It can be a benefit to both players. If you get pushed like that and are winning it shows the other guy is frustrated, it is usually a great sign, if they are winning its part of them maintaining physical dominance.

The rules of the game govern the play when the ball is live. A push in the back is an unfair play in the spirit of the game when we play with loose ground balls that are difficult to pick up. So that rule evolved to maintain the standard of the game as the players try to win the ball. It has nothing to do with what happens between players when the ball isn't live and being contested. Originally high contact was the same thing. Players were reported for striking but not penalised for random high contact outside the live play of the ball.

You are suggesting rules that were once used to determine limits to what you could do on field during play to maintain a fair contest for the ball should be applied outside that situation to govern players general behaviour. I dunno if that is a good thing.

 

[Grrr]

Right. So it was OK for Garry Hocking to do it, but not a couple of young upstarts when they want to do it to Alex Rance?

Come on. What's wrong with a big of youthful exuberance or arrogance on a football field?

Should we introduce a minimum number of games played/AFL achievements before you should be considered worthy of said 'aggression'?

Oh boy.

Not at all, it was totally different. Hocking went at the ball as hard as anyone and if you got in the way he would make then he hit you hard, usually fair but hard. He was a master at that. He made you earn it, like a lot of football those days. Nothing like in the example I gave where the ball slipped out of Rance's hands went over the boundary line, he was flat on his face and was piled on by about 4 Swans. It was pathetic. It was not in the game. It happens all the time. It is not tough, it is schoolboy stuff.
I'm glad they have taken the gladiator stuff out, protecting the head even accidentally like in Danger's situation, accidental but the head is paramount these days. It's the niggle, which irritates me.

 

[ferball]

Really. I remember football back in the 70's and 80', I played VFL in those times and it was pretty hard, but I never saw anyone ever get stuck into someone other than a few verbals because they got beaten on a one-on-one or dropped a mark. They let their football do the talking and there was plenty of opportunity to even up if you felt the need. Young players coming in and mouthing off or rubbing it in if a veteran makes a mistake amazes me. You've been there 5 minutes. I hate all this false bravado, school boy stuff. Nobody can even up now, that is the difference, in the old days do that at your peril.

Yeah that is a good point.

 

[ferball]

Another disconnect with how things evolve and change in life. Bullying and violence and manipulation are traits that some people might have once found endearing and acceptable, but such past virtues are now more commonly seen as vices. If you are resorting to violence , you lack the fitness, physical skills or mental ability to compete under the rules of the game and so you need the bullying or abuse factor to attempt and gain some petty edge back.

Standing up for yourself or your mates doesn't need physical violence or intimidation and the sports field is not the place to learn self defense. Standing up for yourself on the sports field is best done by a display of your skillset is it not?
Winning can be achieved with resorting to thug life behaviour, perhaps using skills that were trained for and earnt, rather than bullying?

Football is about winning and playing the game, perhaps enjoying it eh? For the majority these days it doesn't have to be about letting off steam as you say, or engaging in pointless physical posturing. If you need that, grab yourself a punching bag and workout, or join a boxing or martial arts group of some type.
Why would kids want to play a football game against a player who is there just for biff and violence? You want to come to play football, not to be assaulted.

You are confusing resilience and mental fortitude with violence and bullying

When you are on the end of that stuff you learn resilience, how to shake it off, how to deal with physical contact and not retliate but focus on your situation (ie don't hit back straight away and give away a stupid free.) How to be physically tough and hold your territory. Like the animal you are. In a controlled (ish) environment. Without giving away a free kick. (Or you don't if you are a dumb player.) That was always the case.

Also - do you understand how the rules of the game are applied? They don't apply to stuff that happens in time on, off the ball that isn't a reportable offence. That is just humans interacting. You want to change or improve that?

Set a better example.

Demonstrate a better way to be.

Don't just try and warp "legislation" (ie game rules) to make it go away.

Footy is about winning a physical contest for the ball in a full contact situation. It sounds to me like you're arguing to either remove that contact or place demands on people that are really unreasonable in terms of how they deal with that contact without providing any pathway to achieve that state of mind.

Also -

Standing up for yourself or your mates doesn't need physical violence or intimidation and the sports field is not the place to learn self defense. Standing up for yourself on the sports field is best done by a display of your skillset is it not?

No it isn't. Maybe on a non contact sports field. But on a full contact one its best done by standing up for yourself. By not being physically intimidated. For some people that means responding in kind for others it means not being phased by it. Its always more satisfying to respond to intimidation with skill and ideally scoring but following that up by getting in that specific opponents face then standing your ground, pushing back harder and maybe even adding a jumper punch or two reinforces your physicality and the fact that the other persons attempts at physical intimidation didn't work. Especially if they are bigger than you.

This is governed by hormonal processes that were developed over who knows how long and so long ago that our ancestors that it happened to weren't even primates yet. Maybe not even mammals. Do you seriously think 20 years of one random human culture among the many that are on the planet right now is gonna make that go away. These are pre conscious processes that happen in your psyche before you're even aware of them.

However if you are just talking about the fake tough guy stuff then sure, piss it off. AS another poster mentioned upthread alot of that s**t never happened in the old days cos people would get belted for it.