Roast Time To Earn Your Stripes/Profile And Stop Penny Pinching

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Carringbush2010

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Colllingwood:

The highest profile sporting organization in the league, probably the whole nation. International fame in the southern hemisphere and probably known of in the northern hemisphere.

This club has built a reputation as an on field powerhouse, at least in its first 7 decades. So much so that well renowned Wall Street Journal scribe Sam Walker wrote up the 4 peat team known as the machine as one of the greatest teams of all time of all sports.


That's some heady recognition.

This club over its lifetime has carried a fear and reverence from outside its walls like no other. Well deserved over the first half of it's journey.

That reputation has since started to wane, on face value over the last 3 decades that fear and reverence has slowly eroded. No longer is the Collingwood team feared by opponents and their fans, even to the point of ridicule and pity.

There is growing evidence of that pity among the fans of opposition clubs, the joke about being smiled upon if you face Collingwood in the Grand Final by the footy gods is no joke - it's a reality.

Now it seems its profile comes from what was once a feared competitor to a club that has no deserved right to have that profile, it's purely on the back of what was once a successful football club that has somehow managed to retain its fans and media attention through forever false hope and success rarely realized.

Pretty much this club has retained that gigantic profile through the resilience of its fan base through 6 decades of drought with just enough water to keep that fan base alive.

The old saying 'the straw the broke the camels back' comes to mind, in the recent months after another embarrassing finals exit seems to reflect that. The fan base has finally broken under the unrelenting pressure of false hope and ultimately rare success.

That's how it seems to me, just have a look at these boards, the dissent is overwhelming. Rare is the fan with blind optimism, we've finally had enough and it looks on face value the club recognizes that.

The 'luck' argument continually surfaces among the minority who have that blind hope, the forever hopers that the ounce of luck we need will finally be realized to the promised land. I don't argue that, we have been by far THE unluckiest club in this league over the course of its history.

Just as equally one could argue the club has fallen victim to its own self inflicted harm.

And that's where I think the fan base has finally thrown the toys out of the cot, there's good argument we'd have flags if not for those self inflictions. I'm not going down a rabbit hole about the finer details of those.

If you're going to argue against that then you are the minority who has that blind hope.

Even the club itself has not so much blatantly publicly admitted, but seemingly alluded to, an admission that it realizes the fan base is pretty p155ed off. Me included. And it's mainly because of the things the club has control of yet fails, continuously, like it's a given, - not luck.

The Walsh and Ed departures seems an admission to me.

I imagine I wouldn't be alone in wanting to walking down to the Holden centre walk into the board room and vent to release that pressure valve. I really want to physically line those f*****s up and give em a good swift size 10 in the rear with vehement force to let my frustrations be known. The rocket up the ass the club needs to operate at optimum as much as possible.

I'm not known as a man with a short wick, but enough is enough Collingwood, I'm seriously p155ed off with you.

I get the feeling the club are no longer willing to ride on its own coat tails, I feel the club wants to re earn it's stripes and profile.

It wants to be feared and revered again like no other as it has previously, it doesn't want to slip into irrelevance. The club is at a cross road, continue down the path to eventual and complete irrelevance or re be a a football club, not a corporate citizen, not a goody two shoes community citizen.

You can be those things as well BUT be a football club, first and foremost, that's the priority, that's your job. Do your f*n job!

Time to earn your stripes and profile Collingwood. Re realize and put in place the practices that made Collingwood Collingwood in the first place. Don't let us down - again.
 

Carringbush2010

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Great post,
I prefer not to deal with history as what happened in the 4 peat is not relevant to 2020 and soon 2021.
And that is what has kept the fan base, the hope of 'now'. How many 'nows' have you been through Marty only to be disappointed? History is meant to be used and learnt from but our club never does, never learns, just beats its chest and says 'we're Collingwood and you're not' and rests on its laurels.

I get the feeling that is going to end, the attitude of 'look at our history' while the competition passes us by. The club can't hide from the member and fan anger anymore.

It has a choice, step up or continue on the path of 'what we used to be' and ultimately irrelevance.

It's time.
 

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Trickster

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You make a lot of good points Carringbush and I share your frustration with our plight.

I do think though that we as supporters yearn for the successful periods we had previously so we compare back to yesteryear more so than the club itself. I don't think the club trades on our history to ensure continued support, it's just blessed with a large supporter base which it has continued to harness with sporadic success of recent times providing enough of a kick.

Given now there are 18 clubs, its a lot harder to be dominant as it was when the VFL was in place. Since the AFLs inception, theres been 13 premiers over the 31 years, Hawthorn having won the most with 5. Prior to the AFL, there were only 8 premiers over the same 31 year period with Hawthorn winning 8, Carlton 7 and Richmond 5.

Obviously more clubs and equalisation measures have made it harder to have those eras though free agency has diluted this more recently and allowed successful clubs to get better players for nothing which has helped Hawthorn and Richmond land players other teams before them may not have and effectively ensure they've stayed around the mark longer.

So why do we not win more flags or have sustained success? This is something that I think about a lot and being incredibly unlucky is one element, moreso VFL though probably less so in the AFL era excl 2018 of course. So what I'm thinking now is that its having players who you'd consider a legend or hall of fame status playing at the same time is essential. So you look at our 2010 team and you'd have Pendles, Swan and to a lesser extent Shaw and maybe Sidebottom in that bracket. Most had great seasons but not the sustained form you'd like at that level.

You look at Geelong and you can probably reel off 7 or 8 players. Bartel, Ablett, Chapman, Scarlett, Johnson etc. The same with Hawks. Hodge, Buddy, Cyril, Roughy, Lewis etc. And Richmond as well. Riewoldt, Cotchin, Martin, Lynch etc. And you need everything else to fall in place too.

I've said before our game plan has stacked up agst Richmond (2/1/1 since 18 prelim), so we haven't been too far away. Hopefully we retain our current squad and see some of these youngsters have an immediate impact and we can stay around the mark and challenge.
 

Carringbush2010

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You make a lot of good points Carringbush and I share your frustration with our plight.

I do think though that we as supporters yearn for the successful periods we had previously so we compare back to yesteryear more so than the club itself. I don't think the club trades on our history to ensure continued support, it's just blessed with a large supporter base which it has continued to harness with sporadic success of recent times providing enough of a kick.

Given now there are 18 clubs, its a lot harder to be dominant as it was when the VFL was in place. Since the AFLs inception, theres been 13 premiers over the 31 years, Hawthorn having won the most with 5. Prior to the AFL, there were only 8 premiers over the same 31 year period with Hawthorn winning 8, Carlton 7 and Richmond 5.

Obviously more clubs and equalisation measures have made it harder to have those eras though free agency has diluted this more recently and allowed successful clubs to get better players for nothing which has helped Hawthorn and Richmond land players other teams before them may not have and effectively ensure they've stayed around the mark longer.

So why do we not win more flags or have sustained success? This is something that I think about a lot and being incredibly unlucky is one element, moreso VFL though probably less so in the AFL era excl 2018 of course. So what I'm thinking now is that its having players who you'd consider a legend or hall of fame status playing at the same time is essential. So you look at our 2010 team and you'd have Pendles, Swan and to a lesser extent Shaw and maybe Sidebottom in that bracket. Most had great seasons but not the sustained form you'd like at that level.

You look at Geelong and you can probably reel off 7 or 8 players. Bartel, Ablett, Chapman, Scarlett, Johnson etc. The same with Hawks. Hodge, Buddy, Cyril, Roughy, Lewis etc. And Richmond as well. Riewoldt, Cotchin, Martin, Lynch etc. And you need everything else to fall in place too.

I've said before our game plan has stacked up agst Richmond (2/1/1 since 18 prelim), so we haven't been too far away. Hopefully we retain our current squad and see some of these youngsters have an immediate impact and we can stay around the mark and challenge.
You mention 18 clubs and the changing landscape making it harder to achieve success, fair enough. Yet in the same post you mention the dynastic teams in that 18 club era, they have dynasties, why is that?

If you look at Richmond, right now, you'd be hard pressed to argue they're a better team than our 2011 team. Good luck arguing that one, yet they are in a dynasty, why? Because they do everything in every department to the best of their ability, the way they play the game is key, they are not personnel reliant. That's why.

You can argue til the cows come home the why we aren't that, fact of the matter is we are not operating at optimum mainly due to the fact that as a club we have self inflicted harm that you could argue has cost us flags. This is something that CAN be fixed.

You also mention that us fans are more lamenting than the club on 'what was and why it isn't now'. Fair enough, regardless the Collingwood football club DOES have that Hollywood type fame, whether or not by design it doesn't matter.

If you have the name you have to live up to it, earn it, I'm more than certain the club would more than willingly match the 'profile'. If the club actually did match the fame we'd have 35 flags in the cabinet by now.

Own it, earn it, be ruthless, be the Collingwood of old, we have all the resources to do so.

Time to earn your stripes and profile Collingwood, even if you didn't want it. Fact is you have the profile, match it.
 

Trickster

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If you look at Richmond, right now, you'd be hard pressed to argue they're a better team than our 2011 team. Good luck arguing that one, yet they are in a dynasty, why?
I've given you a reason. Their best players are better than our 2011 better players. Swan and Pendles aside (who was not at his peak yet), who in our 2011 team would you say is the equal of (or better than) Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lynch. Their middle tier and lesser lights would also be better and they replaced their AA defender with a 21 yo who could be better again.

And don't forget MMs impact in dividing the team all year, the gambling incidents, our 2010 leading goalkicker barely kicking a goal in the second half of the season along with injuries and form impacting us at the wrong end of the season. I mentioned this to you in an earlier post, we scraped through agst WCE and Hawt and couldn't beat Geelong all season. Now this is where luck plays a part because if we faced Sydney of 2012, despite all that i think we win. Or if Buckley starts playing in 2010 for us not 1994.

Any chance to back up in 2012 was impacted by the above plus 4 knee recos. Miracle we got to a prelim really. Again luck played a part for Richmond in all that coming together.

As to why they have dynasties, don't under-under-estimate free agency. Lake fixed up Hawthorn's only weakness in 2013 while Lynch made Richmond stronger. They gave up nothing to get them while we gave up a lot to get Tarrant / Krakouer on the back of trading for Jolly / Ball the year before (along with concessions for GC and GWS). So Richmond were still replenishing whereas we weren't. Let go of 2011, it has no relevance to now.
 

Carringbush2010

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I've given you a reason. Their best players are better than our 2011 better players.
Big big call, and speculative at best. I'll say again why the tigas are in a dynasty, the main reason is because of the way they play, NOT personnel. Our 2010 - 2011 team that mind you has the 2nd highest %age EVER (only behind the machine) was not totally personnel reliant either.

It was culture and game plan, in saying that without getting off thread topic, there is no known universe that this current premier team could match that team from 10 years ago. Not in a gazillion years.

Point of the thread: The club is not operating the best it could, if it was, through out its history, we'd have way more flags, way more. Bookmark that!
 

manicpie

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More rubbish, move on everyone!


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Seems like a really good post to me, who are you to rubbish it and not even give your reasons as to why it's supposed to be rubbish. All you have done is confirm the OP said. We need people like you to move on, you're nothing but an anchor and it's time for the club to stop riding on the apron strings of stupid supporters like you and face the reality that we are becoming irrelevant
 

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CB - your passion is admirable.

You said “ put in place the practices that made Collingwood Collingwood in the first place”

What are these practices that we need to recapture?
 

Darkyprotector

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Since the AFL started 17 teams have played in a g/f
Sums it up
We have shocking luck
Reid
Johno
Dawes knuckle
Browns knee
Swans freak injury
Fraser's PCL

All key parts
All injured but required on list taking spots and reducing our ability to get the recruitment we're after
The sharenburg fiasco
Langdon s knee

All these injured players kept to long on list
The draft were we got broomhead Kennedy Ramsay
Malthouse destroyed the club for 4 years after he left
Far too much influence and his style left a stigma that could not be overcome
Shaw
O'Brien
Thomas
Dids
If he had loved his boy's so much he would have stuck by his word

That was our dynasty chance
Now
2023 2024 2025

Magden Keane quaynour
Maynard Moore crisp
McRae seir daicos
Daicos McMahon Kelly
Henry tohill Finnigan
Grundy. Adams McInnes
De goey rantall t brown Murphy

I expect tohill and Keane to flourish
Murphy to by then be established

Sidey,pendels,Cox,Mayne, Elliott, all retired
 

manicpie

Club Legend
Jul 19, 2019
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Since the AFL started 17 teams have played in a g/f
Sums it up
We have shocking luck
Reid
Johno
Dawes knuckle
Browns knee
Swans freak injury
Fraser's PCL

All key parts
All injured but required on list taking spots and reducing our ability to get the recruitment we're after
The sharenburg fiasco
Langdon s knee

All these injured players kept to long on list
The draft were we got broomhead Kennedy Ramsay
Malthouse destroyed the club for 4 years after he left
Far too much influence and his style left a stigma that could not be overcome
Shaw
O'Brien
Thomas
Dids
If he had loved his boy's so much he would have stuck by his word

That was our dynasty chance
Now
2023 2024 2025

Magden Keane quaynour
Maynard Moore crisp
McRae seir daicos
Daicos McMahon Kelly
Henry tohill Finnigan
Grundy. Adams McInnes
De goey rantall t brown Murphy

I expect tohill and Keane to flourish
Murphy to by then be established

Sidey,pendels,Cox,Mayne, Elliott, all retired
Magden will be 35 by 2025 and who is Finnigan, hopefully the side will have a few more stars by 2025 because that team is sh*t
 

Toecrusher

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Exactly. We have clearly lacked a KPF for years so what do we do? Target players like Beams, Wells and Mayne
I think the club was focusing on getting role players to snag a premiership, rather than key position players to build a future around.

Short term thinking at best, but it did give the opportunity to extend the coaches contacts....
 

Trickster

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Big big call, and speculative at best. I'll say again why the tigas are in a dynasty, the main reason is because of the way they play, NOT personnel. Our 2010 - 2011 team that mind you has the 2nd highest %age EVER (only behind the machine) was not totally personnel reliant either.

It was culture and game plan, in saying that without getting off thread topic, there is no known universe that this current premier team could match that team from 10 years ago. Not in a gazillion years.

Point of the thread: The club is not operating the best it could, if it was, through out its history, we'd have way more flags, way more. Bookmark that!
You've mentioned, second highest percentage a bit and while that's right, I'm sure if you look at the breakdown of it over the first 18 rounds versus the last few rounds plus finals, we were clearly not as dominant at the backend of the year (even excl the Geel final H&A game as that's an anomaly). So if the finals were played in May or June in that form, we would have been ok, but by the end of the season we were just very good, not unbeatable. Interested if you want to provide the breakdown on that?

Also, if you line up Richmond's players to our 2011 list, player vs player they'd have more win their positions. And another point to the legends / hall of famers I made earlier, they have players who play to their best or above on GF day whereas the majority of ours didn't. Even Swan's 3 GFs you'd say were below his best.

You also make a point about operating at its best throughout history, that's nigh on impossible. Not even sure what means, how you'd achieve it or how you'd measure it? It seems you're hanging our GF win / loss record on the current admin / era when in reality most of it is via VFL. We're in the process off change now so lets see how that goes. Will that mean, we'll operate at our optimal capacity or be successful, who knows, one can only hope?

And if you go back to operating how we did via VFL, I'd argue for the first half of the century, we were right up there, then failed to change with the times (not paying players what they were worth resulting in Tuddy / Thompson striking, slow to pay for recruits when others had (Eakins our first), messing up Quinlan, and even only ever looking at Collingwood players as coaches. So it probably took to Leigh Matthews era to really try and respect but leave the Collingwood history behind which had become a noose by that point.

As for free agents, yes we made the wrong calls on Mayne and Wells (though at the time we recruiting for depth and skill), we were going for Lynch and just missed out (most likely due to Prestia being an influence as well) and Cameron chose Geelong where he was from (if we could afford him) which is an area that Geelong do well in as they have a unique selling point away from the Melbourne fishbowl. Free agency is not a level playing field. Premiership teams can land the big fish, Geelong can too based on location while clubs like Carlton can land players like Williams by massively over paying. We're in the market for them, but we're not always going to land each and every one for various reasons.
 

Carringbush2010

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CB - your passion is admirable.

You said “ put in place the practices that made Collingwood Collingwood in the first place”

What are these practices that we need to recapture?
It's about disciplined and inclusive culture, whenever there is a dominant team or even dynastic, it's clear the whole organization are in sync for the end game. For example the machine team, McHale ensured every player was paid equally. So there was no 'I'm a better player I deserve more than x player' - that meant every player put team first before pay day.

That may seem militant or regimental but the results are clear, Collingwood in the first half of it's life was obviously very disciplined in how it approached the competition.

I don't know exactly what the practices are, whatever it is, the club can do more to be disciplined IMO.
 

Carringbush2010

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You've mentioned, second highest percentage a bit and while that's right, I'm sure if you look at the breakdown of it over the first 18 rounds versus the last few rounds plus finals, we were clearly not as dominant at the backend of the year (even excl the Geel final H&A game as that's an anomaly). So if the finals were played in May or June in that form, we would have been ok, but by the end of the season we were just very good, not unbeatable. Interested if you want to provide the breakdown on that?

Also, if you line up Richmond's players to our 2011 list, player vs player they'd have more win their positions. And another point to the legends / hall of famers I made earlier, they have players who play to their best or above on GF day whereas the majority of ours didn't. Even Swan's 3 GFs you'd say were below his best.

You also make a point about operating at its best throughout history, that's nigh on impossible. Not even sure what means, how you'd achieve it or how you'd measure it? It seems you're hanging our GF win / loss record on the current admin / era when in reality most of it is via VFL. We're in the process off change now so lets see how that goes. Will that mean, we'll operate at our optimal capacity or be successful, who knows, one can only hope?

And if you go back to operating how we did via VFL, I'd argue for the first half of the century, we were right up there, then failed to change with the times (not paying players what they were worth resulting in Tuddy / Thompson striking, slow to pay for recruits when others had (Eakins our first), messing up Quinlan, and even only ever looking at Collingwood players as coaches. So it probably took to Leigh Matthews era to really try and respect but leave the Collingwood history behind which had become a noose by that point.

As for free agents, yes we made the wrong calls on Mayne and Wells (though at the time we recruiting for depth and skill), we were going for Lynch and just missed out (most likely due to Prestia being an influence as well) and Cameron chose Geelong where he was from (if we could afford him) which is an area that Geelong do well in as they have a unique selling point away from the Melbourne fishbowl. Free agency is not a level playing field. Premiership teams can land the big fish, Geelong can too based on location while clubs like Carlton can land players like Williams by massively over paying. We're in the market for them, but we're not always going to land each and every one for various reasons.
Again, you're going into finer details trying argue that the current premier is a better team. Agree to disagree, however it's not thread relevant unless you want to dissect it and go into finer details.

It's not really what the point of the thread is about. My point is that for eons it seems on face value at least, that the club has not operated to potential and it seems on face value that parts of the organization are happy with bringing $ in the door, be a good community / corporate citizen and as long as the members and fans are not angry then carry on, don't worry about flags. Flags are a secondary focus.

I would hope that is not the case, but it's the impression I get.

If you look at the premier, on face value, from the outside looking in, the impression I get is that the whole organization from the prez to the boot studder has an intent to succeed on field. At least that's the primary focus or so it seems.

I get that 'operating at optimum' will not guarantee success, so what? What is so wrong with wanting the club from top to bottom be transparent in their focus on the end game? Can't see it hurting, can you?

We have the largest profile in the comp but it doesn't match the performance, we've displayed the performance of a bottom feeder club for a long long time.

At least attempt to look like the intent is flags.
 

JB1975

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When teams win flags, we sing the virtues of their entire organization.

Every drafting decision and trade looks like a masterstroke.

All doubts about coaches, who should all have been sacked last season, are now forgotten.

Everyone is smiling, from the board to the bootstudder; they're all winners, so it is obvious that they're the best at what they do and that all of them are on the same page.

That's how we appeared in 2010 and most of 2011. It was a fine time. It ended. I hope it happens again.

------------------------------------------------------

We're okay. A bit middling, but not a rabble. Our immediate prospects aren't great but we're making some changes which gives us a chance at a better future.

------------------------------------------------------

As for Richmond, I can't speak to their off-field management, but they're a better team than we were in 2010-2011.

We were very good in 2011, but fading, and we lost to Geelong x3 times. Hardly the stuff of greatness.
 

Carringbush2010

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We're okay. A bit middling, but not a rabble
A bit middling? Ok, regardless, the profile of the club hardly screams 'middling'

Whether or not you or I or the club or anyone else do or do not want the profile, the club has that profile. That has come from the early dominance of the competition, now the club does not dominate, for the sake of the point I'll concede that we've been middling for 6 decades.

Either either we do not match the high profile that the club has.

Whether or not the club wants that (one would argue yes) then its time to earn it. How that is achieved I don't know, that is the job of the club.

The club has an opportunity now to really show transparent intent to make winning flags the primary focus or continue on what looks like 'nothing to see here' and slowly erode to irrelevance.
 

JB1975

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The club has an opportunity now to really show transparent intent to make winning flags the primary focus or continue on what looks like 'nothing to see here' and slowly erode to irrelevance.
I'll be honest, I'm not too sure what your point is.

On the one hand you remind us that Collingwood is a big club, despite falling short of its own lofty standards for the past 6 decades, and on the other hand you're suggesting that we're in danger of sliding into irrelevance.

And I'm flummoxed about how a club shows 'transparent intent' to win a flag. All clubs are driven by that.

In the case of Collingwood, what are we doing or not doing which suggests we're not as determined as other clubs to succeed?
 

Carringbush2010

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I'll be honest, I'm not too sure what your point is.

On the one hand you remind us that Collingwood is a big club, despite falling short of its own lofty standards for the past 6 decades, and on the other hand you're suggesting that we're in danger of sliding into irrelevance.

And I'm flummoxed about how a club shows 'transparent intent' to win a flag. All clubs are driven by that.

In the case of Collingwood, what are we doing or not doing which suggests we're not as determined as other clubs to succeed?
Your last question, yes on face value, it looks like flags for the 1s is not priority. That's the impression I get, where as if you look at the premier, again on face value it looks like the intent is clear.

What I mean by irrelevant is not immediate but if we continue with no success for more extended periods the club WILL slip into irrelevance.

You say 'all clubs are driven by that'. Well to me it looks like our club has more vested interest of obtaining market through other teams and sports (netball), that's fine. But it comes across as the primary focus, not winning flags.

But you can't convince me that the club has given itself every chance to win a flag for the mens team, the club has not been run at optimum or at least it seems that way.

Whatever it is we're not doing it right and the premier is and has been for a few seasons now, I believe the club has the ability to improve in the culture and discipline through all departments. What flag clubs do.
 

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