Roast Time To Earn Your Stripes/Profile And Stop Penny Pinching

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JB1975

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Your last question, yes on face value, it looks like flags for the 1s is not priority. That's the impression I get, where as if you look at the premier, again on face value it looks like the intent is clear.

What I mean by irrelevant is not immediate but if we continue with no success for more extended periods the club WILL slip into irrelevance.

You say 'all clubs are driven by that'. Well to me it looks like our club has more vested interest of obtaining market through other teams and sports (netball), that's fine. But it comes across as the primary focus, not winning flags.

But you can't convince me that the club has given itself every chance to win a flag for the mens team, the club has not been run at optimum or at least it seems that way.

Whatever it is we're not doing it right and the premier is and has been for a few seasons now, I believe the club has the ability to improve in the culture and discipline through all departments. What flag clubs do.
Your comments are driven by your 'impression', and the only concrete evidence you've attached to that is that we have a netball team.

I'm sure you've noticed, but maybe it should be pointed out that most clubs are busily pursuing the formation and success of sporting teams within their organisation, beyond the men's senior team.

Some would be able to argue that the formation of a broader sporting hub within the club also creates synergies which will benefit AFL performance.

I couldn't be bothered making that argument right now, but you've suggested that these other teams are a detriment, and I think that you should provide some sort of evidence for that.

The fact that Richmond has expanded into the AFLW without losing focus upon AFL success might be a problem for your argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

None of this is to suggest that the CFC is fine and dandy.

I believe in change for the sake of improvement. What I don't believe in is calling for change based upon an impression.
 

Carringbush2010

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Your comments are driven by your 'impression', and the only concrete evidence you've attached to that is that we have a netball team.

I'm sure you've noticed, but maybe it should be pointed out that most clubs are busily pursuing the formation and success of sporting teams within their organisation, beyond the men's senior team.

Some would be able to argue that the formation of a broader sporting hub within the club also creates synergies which will benefit AFL performance.

I couldn't be bothered making that argument right now, but you've suggested that these other teams are a detriment, and I think that you should provide some sort of evidence for that.

The fact that Richmond has expanded into the AFLW without losing focus upon AFL success might be a problem for your argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

None of this is to suggest that the CFC is fine and dandy.

I believe in change for the sake of improvement. What I don't believe in is calling for change based upon an impression.
I've never suggested that the addition of netball & womens teams are concrete evidence that it takes away from focus of the main prize. I've suggested it may be.

Just a side note on those additional programs, they are good for the club because it expands the market place.

Of course my 'impression' is speculative, that's all I've got to go on because I'm not inside the 4 walls of the club.

What I do know is that we have a huge profile but our on field performance does not suggest we should have that profile.

'Change' or 'no change' in how the club is run is not what I'm seeking, what I'm seeking is better on field performance to match the profile.

How the club goes about it is the job of the club, not me.

I have an 'impression' that the club is not being run to potential, if it were it's fair speculation we'd have much better on field success to this point. Much better.

So it's not change for change sake, it's a belief that the club is not but should be run better.
 

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JB1975

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I've never suggested that the addition of netball & womens teams are concrete evidence that it takes away from focus of the main prize. I've suggested it may be.

Just a side note on those additional programs, they are good for the club because it expands the market place.

Of course my 'impression' is speculative, that's all I've got to go on because I'm not inside the 4 walls of the club.

What I do know is that we have a huge profile but our on field performance does not suggest we should have that profile.

'Change' or 'no change' in how the club is run is not what I'm seeking, what I'm seeking is better on field performance to match the profile.

How the club goes about it is the job of the club, not me.

I have an 'impression' that the club is not being run to potential, if it were it's fair speculation we'd have much better on field success to this point. Much better.

So it's not change for change sake, it's a belief that the club is not but should be run better.
Fair enough, fair enough.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't help but think that if you to start a thread telling the club to pull its finger out and to keep its eye on the prize, then you might want to offer something more than your 'impression' as evidence that the club needs your advice.

You've started a roast thread and you haven't brought any heat.
 

Carringbush2010

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Fair enough, fair enough.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't help but think that if you to start a thread telling the club to pull its finger out and to keep its eye on the prize, then you might want to offer something more than your 'impression' as evidence that the club needs your advice.

You've started a roast thread and you haven't brought any heat.
Fair enough, I'm not going to start a toast thread am I.

Again, I can't offer 'evidence' because I don't work at the club. All I can do is see what I see and to me, and I certainly wouldn't be alone in the view, there is room for massive improvement in the running of the club.

  • Off field incidents
  • Injuries
  • Trading and drafting
These are just a few off the top of my head that we haven't excelled in, yet I'm willing to bet these things the club has some sort of control of.

Fix these up, to the best of the clubs abilities and more on field success may follow.

The thread title itself is heat enough.
 

HeadInTheSand

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I've given you a reason. Their best players are better than our 2011 better players. Swan and Pendles aside (who was not at his peak yet), who in our 2011 team would you say is the equal of (or better than) Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lynch. Their middle tier and lesser lights would also be better and they replaced their AA defender with a 21 yo who could be better again.
What a stupid paragraph.

Thomas in 2011 was every bit the equal of Martin.

Ben Reid was All-Australian CHB. Tarrant, Shaw, Davis and Maxwell were also all class in defence.

Swan and Pendlebury were miles better than Cotchin.

Cloke kicked 69 goals for the year. He was a monster, far more dangerous than Riewoldt.

2011 was a poor result for the Collingwood football club because of self-inflicted wounds, the likes of which Richmond do not do to themselves these days because they are well run.
 

HeadInTheSand

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That reputation has since started to wane, on face value over the last 3 decades that fear and reverence has slowly eroded. No longer is the Collingwood team feared by opponents and their fans, even to the point of ridicule and pity.
You can put a large part of the last ten years' decline squarely on the coach's head. His touchy-feely new age persona means he doesn't want the club to be hated.

He would prefer everyone gather round and sing kumbaya whilst sharing a mezze platter.
 

Trickster

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What a stupid paragraph.

Thomas in 2011 was every bit the equal of Martin.

Ben Reid was All-Australian CHB. Tarrant, Shaw, Davis and Maxwell were also all class in defence.

Swan and Pendlebury were miles better than Cotchin.

Cloke kicked 69 goals for the year. He was a monster, far more dangerous than Riewoldt.

2011 was a poor result for the Collingwood football club because of self-inflicted wounds, the likes of which Richmond do not do to themselves these days because they are well run.
Understand the context first. My response above was to the question why are Richmond players now part of a dynasty. And its because these players are consistently better than our players from that era and they have more players who are likely to be legends or hall of famers in their club than our players.

Some players you mentioned had elite seasons in 2011 and for 1 or 2 others (Swan and Pendles aside), whereas a higher number of Richmond players have been elite for a greater period.

But you're also right, the self-implosion came from MM who spat the dummy and then decided to go on footy show late in the year.
He would prefer everyone gather round and sing kumbaya whilst sharing a mezze platter.
And speaking of stupid...
 

Darkyprotector

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Magden will be 35 by 2025 and who is Finnigan, hopefully the side will have a few more stars by 2025 because that team is sh*t
The team posted 2023
By then seir 100 games
McInnes 50
Murphy 50
Daicos 100
T brown 50
McMahon 20
Kelly 50
Keane 50
Rantall 50
Tohill 30

Reality is we need to develop kpf
That's what we're doing
De goey
Moore
Maynard
Adams
Crisp
Daicosx2
Quaynour
Grundy
5 who will be all Australian
4 currently all Australian or ex

Add
McInnes
T brown
Rantall
McRae
Henry
Seir

So I'd suggest add a Merrett or otherwise (petracca) as a free agent
Add a Ben king
Add a himmelberg
Cameron west coast

And if Cox gets going it's not unlikely he won't still be playing as at least a secondary target

So I'm very bullish as by then
Geelong will drop off
Eagles darling nicnat Shuey Kennedy
Tigers reiwoldt cotchins houli Lambert lynch
Freo loose Walters and fyffe


See it being
Suns us port swans lions dogs

So
Quaynour Keane Murphy
Crisp Moore Maynard

McRae seir daicos
Grundy de goey Adams

Daicos McMahon Kelly

Petracca Cox Cameron

Merrett t brown McInnes Henry

Remember 2023
Free agent Merrett
Free agent petracca
Trade cameron
 

Carringbush2010

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You can put a large part of the last ten years' decline squarely on the coach's head. His touchy-feely new age persona means he doesn't want the club to be hated.

He would prefer everyone gather round and sing kumbaya whilst sharing a mezze platter.
Bit too much mayo there mate.

Not the most ruthless and regimental no, but universes away from the kumbaya type.
 

jonmacTrag

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Colllingwood:

The highest profile sporting organization in the league, probably the whole nation. International fame in the southern hemisphere and probably known of in the northern hemisphere.

This club has built a reputation as an on field powerhouse, at least in its first 7 decades. So much so that well renowned Wall Street Journal scribe Sam Walker wrote up the 4 peat team known as the machine as one of the greatest teams of all time of all sports.


That's some heady recognition.

This club over its lifetime has carried a fear and reverence from outside its walls like no other. Well deserved over the first half of it's journey.

That reputation has since started to wane, on face value over the last 3 decades that fear and reverence has slowly eroded. No longer is the Collingwood team feared by opponents and their fans, even to the point of ridicule and pity.

There is growing evidence of that pity among the fans of opposition clubs, the joke about being smiled upon if you face Collingwood in the Grand Final by the footy gods is no joke - it's a reality.

Now it seems its profile comes from what was once a feared competitor to a club that has no deserved right to have that profile, it's purely on the back of what was once a successful football club that has somehow managed to retain its fans and media attention through forever false hope and success rarely realized.

Pretty much this club has retained that gigantic profile through the resilience of its fan base through 6 decades of drought with just enough water to keep that fan base alive.

The old saying 'the straw the broke the camels back' comes to mind, in the recent months after another embarrassing finals exit seems to reflect that. The fan base has finally broken under the unrelenting pressure of false hope and ultimately rare success.

That's how it seems to me, just have a look at these boards, the dissent is overwhelming. Rare is the fan with blind optimism, we've finally had enough and it looks on face value the club recognizes that.

The 'luck' argument continually surfaces among the minority who have that blind hope, the forever hopers that the ounce of luck we need will finally be realized to the promised land. I don't argue that, we have been by far THE unluckiest club in this league over the course of its history.

Just as equally one could argue the club has fallen victim to its own self inflicted harm.

And that's where I think the fan base has finally thrown the toys out of the cot, there's good argument we'd have flags if not for those self inflictions. I'm not going down a rabbit hole about the finer details of those.

If you're going to argue against that then you are the minority who has that blind hope.

Even the club itself has not so much blatantly publicly admitted, but seemingly alluded to, an admission that it realizes the fan base is pretty p155ed off. Me included. And it's mainly because of the things the club has control of yet fails, continuously, like it's a given, - not luck.

The Walsh and Ed departures seems an admission to me.

I imagine I wouldn't be alone in wanting to walking down to the Holden centre walk into the board room and vent to release that pressure valve. I really want to physically line those f*****s up and give em a good swift size 10 in the rear with vehement force to let my frustrations be known. The rocket up the ass the club needs to operate at optimum as much as possible.

I'm not known as a man with a short wick, but enough is enough Collingwood, I'm seriously p155ed off with you.

I get the feeling the club are no longer willing to ride on its own coat tails, I feel the club wants to re earn it's stripes and profile.

It wants to be feared and revered again like no other as it has previously, it doesn't want to slip into irrelevance. The club is at a cross road, continue down the path to eventual and complete irrelevance or re be a a football club, not a corporate citizen, not a goody two shoes community citizen.

You can be those things as well BUT be a football club, first and foremost, that's the priority, that's your job. Do your f*n job!

Time to earn your stripes and profile Collingwood. Re realize and put in place the practices that made Collingwood Collingwood in the first place. Don't let us down - again.
If I am interpreting your post correctly you seem to be living in the past a bit.

The AFL has demonstrated, forcibly and relentlessly that they will not allow any team to dominate as we once did.

The sport has been turned into an entertainment designed to line the pockets of the media barons and their advertising sponsors so it would be decidedly against the financial welfare of said barons and their supporters to allow any team to dominate.

We are all on an enforced treadmill, some are on a longer cycle than others but it is an artificial cycle nonetheless.

Imposed by those outside the competition for their financial gratification.
 

Carringbush2010

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2011 was a poor result for the Collingwood football club because of self-inflicted wounds, the likes of which Richmond do not do to themselves these days because they are well run.
But you're also right, the self-implosion came from MM who spat the dummy and then decided to go on footy show late in the year.
I agree with both here, what makes these comments relevant:

When MM stepped in the door he immediately brought discipline and respect for each other from a playing group perspective and although it took 10 years to obtain success, the playing group and the panel did everything in their power to succeed. It doesn't look like that now.

So the what looks like an ill timed succession plan was the catalyst for MM throwing the toys out of the cot, that's what it looks like to me anyway. I'd rather we don't go down that rabbit hole

Regardless MM brought a workman like list to an unlikely flag contender through good player management and development, his panel had a part in that too.

It's exactly what I'm talking about, the culture and discipline that brought so much success in the clubs first half of its history. There's no reason the club, collectively, cannot return to this mantra. IF this could be achieved it's very likely on field success will follow!

Now the mob over the railway line look like the disciplined and sacrificial for the good crowd, while we look like the good corporate / community citizen crowd - through my eyes atleast. This is not correlating to the clubs profile.
 

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manicpie

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If I am interpreting your post correctly you seem to be living in the past a bit.

The AFL has demonstrated, forcibly and relentlessly that they will not allow any team to dominate as we once did.

The sport has been turned into an entertainment designed to line the pockets of the media barons and their advertising sponsors so it would be decidedly against the financial welfare of said barons and their supporters to allow any team to dominate.

We are all on an enforced treadmill, some are on a longer cycle than others but it is an artificial cycle nonetheless.

Imposed by those outside the competition for their financial gratification.
I would have thought that it was the AFL lining their pockets, and probably rightly so in order to keep a Multi Million dollar Competition going. There is nothing wrong with Buisneses paying big money to Advertise their products in order to make money and be able to pay wages etc. etc.
Those media barons pay big dollars in order to make big dollars, I don't understand your point other than trying to convince everyone of some conspiracy theory
 

Carringbush2010

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The AFL has demonstrated, forcibly and relentlessly that they will not allow any team to dominate as we once did.
And yet 4 teams have had dynasties in the last 20 years, 2 teams in the last 7 years! meanwhile at the Holden centre....................... we're doing the right thing by the comp, share and share alike!

If you've conceded the club has no power to succeed because HQ has enforced it so, then why are you still following? What would be the point knowing you're relying on 'cycles' for success? You may as well pack it up and go home, because all hope has been taken away coz HQ said so, comply and obey jonmac! comply and obey Collingwoood!

Is that what you really want?

Sure, there's no denying that HQ's intent IS to equalise the comp, but clubs continue to get around it. Clubs like ours with huge profiles, except we don't and on face value, collectively, the club could do more to obtain that success like those other clubs. The Collingwood of old would have 3 or 4 flags in the last 2 decades, not 1.
 
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HeadInTheSand

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So the what looks like an ill timed succession plan was the catalyst for MM throwing the toys out of the cot, that's what it looks like to me anyway. I'd rather we don't go down that rabbit hole
The succession plan was typical McGuire - he tried to have it both ways and fell on his face.

Malthouse was a three-time flag winning coach after 2010. A good coach, but short of the four time winning greats like Sheedy, Hafey and Parkin.

Contract or not, he had every right to think that after 2010, the plan was delayed until the list had run it's race.

That's what a professional sporting organisation would have done. If Buckley was the one who didn't want that to happen, then it points to a selfishness that should have precluded him from taking the position.

Except McGuire, desperate to prove the validity of his plan and gift a premiership to Buckley, screwed it up. He put himself before the club he is supposed to serve, and by some accounts, was the one who insisted the deal stay as struck.

Maybe if it had been delayed, it wouldn't have made any difference.

But it was the height of stupidity to not at least see if it would have.
 

Carringbush2010

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The succession plan was typical McGuire - he tried to have it both ways and fell on his face.

Malthouse was a three-time flag winning coach after 2010. A good coach, but short of the four time winning greats like Sheedy, Hafey and Parkin.

Contract or not, he had every right to think that after 2010, the plan was delayed until the list had run it's race.

That's what a professional sporting organisation would have done. If Buckley was the one who didn't want that to happen, then it points to a selfishness that should have precluded him from taking the position.

Except McGuire, desperate to prove the validity of his plan and gift a premiership to Buckley, screwed it up. He put himself before the club he is supposed to serve, and by some accounts, was the one who insisted the deal stay as struck.

Maybe if it had been delayed, it wouldn't have made any difference.

But it was the height of stupidity to not at least see if it would have.
It is rumored that Buckley did offer to step aside until MM had run his course, and I agree it has the optics of Ed trying to validate the plan.

If I were a betting man I'd argue any other club in that same situation would've postponed that plan given the team was littered with talent and a mantra of 'play for each other' (which is the sort of culture I want to see) that had the runs on the board.

Since 99 all the way til 2010, the club, even in those couple of years after the GF's of 02 -03 had an optic of doing everything in it's collective power to succeed.

Since 2011, and I'm sure it's not by design, it's been an awry run.

I maybe completely wrong, maybe the club is absolutely doing everything in it's power (atleast in intent). Whatever the case the profile of the club does not match performance (or lack of).
 

jonmacTrag

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And yet 4 teams have had dynasties in the last 20 years, 2 teams in the last 7 years! meanwhile at the Holden centre....................... we're doing the right thing by the comp, share and share alike!

If you've conceded the club has no power to succeed because HQ has enforced it so, then why are you still following? What would be the point knowing you're relying on 'cycles' for success? You may as well pack it up and go home, because all hope has been taken away coz HQ said so, comply and obey jonmac! comply and obey Collingwoood!

Is that what you really want?

Sure, there's no denying that HQ's intent IS to equalise the comp, but clubs continue to get around it. Clubs like ours with huge profiles, except we don't and on face value, collectively, the club could do more to obtain that success like those other clubs. The Collingwood of old would have 3 or 4 flags in the last 2 decades, not 1.
Carringbush you certainly know how to twist the meaning of a post.

I'm sure you know EXACTLY what I meant.

And yes 4 teams have found a way to win multiples DESPITE vigorous attempts by the AFL to equalize.

This doesn't minimize the attempts by the AFL as I'm sure you understand.

So this is my final reply to you.
 

Mostfamousclub_Pies

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We just need to be luckier on Grand Final day. No other team fronts up like us.
The stripes have been well and truly earned, and fortunately worn on every occasion. Our home strip is almost identical to our away one.
Don’t be so hard on them, they’re doing the best they can every time they go out there.
 

Trickster

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Since 99 all the way til 2010, the club, even in those couple of years after the GF's of 02 -03 had an optic of doing everything in it's collective power to succeed.

Since 2011, and I'm sure it's not by design, it's been an awry run.
Explain how we were doing everything to succeed in 04-05 (tanking?) but from 2010 onwards (the last 10 years) we are not? What optics are you referring to?

Not sure how you can keep making those sorts of statements without offering specific evidence.
 

HeadInTheSand

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Explain how we were doing everything to succeed in 04-05 (tanking?) but from 2010 onwards (the last 10 years) we are not? What optics are you referring to?
Prior to 2010, it had one of the highest football department spends and developed superb facilities.

It hired world-leading experts in sports science as High Performance Manager instead of the orange boy.

It had a stable football department, as opposed to the revolving door of football managers the last 7-8 years.

It didn't have resources drained by failures like AFLW and the netball.

It was focused on winning a flag, not helping the homeless.
 

Trickster

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Prior to 2010, it had one of the highest football department spends and developed superb facilities.

It hired world-leading experts in sports science as High Performance Manager instead of the orange boy.

It had a stable football department, as opposed to the revolving door of football managers the last 7-8 years.

It didn't have resources drained by failures like AFLW and the netball.

It was focused on winning a flag, not helping the homeless.
So when we finished second last, 5-17 in 2005, we were all sitting back smoking cigars thinking how good are we?

Poor comment also on we're focused on helping the homeless not winning flags. You realise the club's foundations were borne out of the underclass and under-privileged. In the first world war and the depression years, Collingwood supporters were hit hardest and the club would allow a lot of them in for free.

And you can do both win football games and support the community.

Really poor comment.
 

Carringbush2010

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Carringbush you certainly know how to twist the meaning of a post.

I'm sure you know EXACTLY what I meant.

And yes 4 teams have found a way to win multiples DESPITE vigorous attempts by the AFL to equalize.

This doesn't minimize the attempts by the AFL as I'm sure you understand.

So this is my final reply to you.
I did not twist it at all, it's clear your view is that HQ are hell bent on equalization, which is clearly true.

But it's also clear you concede that we aren't likely to be one of those teams 'so just accept it'. That's how your post come across, no twisting involved.
 

Carringbush2010

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Explain how we were doing everything to succeed in 04-05 (tanking?) but from 2010 onwards (the last 10 years) we are not? What optics are you referring to?

Not sure how you can keep making those sorts of statements without offering specific evidence.
1/ It's clear we were in regen mode after the two back to back GF's. The culture and discipline did not waver.

2/ How can I possibly have 'specific evidence' if I don't work at the club?

From the OP I've stated speculatively, that's all I have. From what I can see it does not look like the club has done everything in it's power to succeed.

I'll state again, whether or not the club wants the profile it has there is no escaping it. Collingwood has a profile that would suggest it regularly succeeds.

I'd be more than happy that the club - collectively - could convince me that that is the intent. That would mean:

  • No more or atleast a big reduction in off field incidents that do harm to our chances. Sides this year comes to mind, we have not been at optimum in this area.
  • A massive massive improvement in trading and drafting. We have not been at optimum in this area.
  • A massive massive improvement in game and player development. We have not been at optimum in this area.
All of those dot points ARE in the clubs control, improve or even fix those areas and we give ourselves much better chances at success.
 

Carringbush2010

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We just need to be luckier on Grand Final day. No other team fronts up like us.
The stripes have been well and truly earned, and fortunately worn on every occasion. Our home strip is almost identical to our away one.
Don’t be so hard on them, they’re doing the best they can every time they go out there.
We are without doubt THE unluckiest club in the history of the comp. Forget about luck (of the good kind) it ain't comin our way, if it did that would be a complete turn around in the history books.

If we are to rely on luck then you can forget about anymore flags, almost zero chance if your hope is luck, pack it up and go home.

There are things in the clubs control that can improve, that's a much more reliable. IF we improve in areas in the clubs control that gives a much better chance at success AND a much better chance of on field matching the club profile.
 
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