Roast Time To Earn Your Stripes/Profile And Stop Penny Pinching

Remove this Banner Ad

Status
Not open for further replies.

TKiL

Cancelled
Jul 22, 2017
5,692
7,253
Eastern Suburbs, Melb
AFL Club
Collingwood
If I am interpreting your post correctly you seem to be living in the past a bit.

The AFL has demonstrated, forcibly and relentlessly that they will not allow any team to dominate as we once did.

The sport has been turned into an entertainment designed to line the pockets of the media barons and their advertising sponsors so it would be decidedly against the financial welfare of said barons and their supporters to allow any team to dominate.

We are all on an enforced treadmill, some are on a longer cycle than others but it is an artificial cycle nonetheless.

Imposed by those outside the competition for their financial gratification.
Despite the AFL's efforts, Richmond have dominated in the last 4 years.
Why can't Cwood sort itself to dominate in a like manner?
In sport small tweaks can make a huge difference. In footy tweaks to following just might make the difference between "being up there" and winning a few flags:
- game plan
- fitness /injury management
- culture/ desire/ morale/ spirit
- skill development
etc
We may be close - we may be way off
But we ain't performing to the name/ reputation we once had.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
11,688
7,291
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
Despite the AFL's efforts, Richmond have dominated in the last 4 years.
Why can't Cwood sort itself to dominate in a like manner?
In sport small tweaks can make a huge difference. In footy tweaks to following just might make the difference between "being up there" and winning a few flags:
- game plan
- fitness /injury management
- culture/ desire/ morale/ spirit
- skill development
etc
We may be close - we may be way off
But we ain't performing to the name/ reputation we once had.
Someone gets it.
 

Trickster

All Australian
Jul 27, 2014
824
717
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
New Orleans Saints
1/ It's clear we were in regen mode after the two back to back GF's. The culture and discipline did not waver.

2/ How can I possibly have 'specific evidence' if I don't work at the club?

From the OP I've stated speculatively, that's all I have. From what I can see it does not look like the club has done everything in it's power to succeed.

I'll state again, whether or not the club wants the profile it has there is no escaping it. Collingwood has a profile that would suggest it regularly succeeds.

I'd be more than happy that the club - collectively - could convince me that that is the intent. That would mean:

  • No more or atleast a big reduction in off field incidents that do harm to our chances. Sides this year comes to mind, we have not been at optimum in this area.
  • A massive massive improvement in trading and drafting. We have not been at optimum in this area.
  • A massive massive improvement in game and player development. We have not been at optimum in this area.
All of those dot points ARE in the clubs control, improve or even fix those areas and we give ourselves much better chances at success.
If you make statements like from 1999-2010, optically the club was doing everything in its power to succeed but havent since (like we've just quit), at least offer up suggestions as to what they were doing then that they aren't now.

Dont hide behind the I don't work there excuse. I can imagine you wouldn't have been as positive after losing to Geel by 72 pts in Malthouses 10th year.

And you talk about culture and off field incidents, but it seems you have forgotten about Swan's antics, Didak and Shaw, Wellingham et al during the era you say we were doing everything to win a flag and they should now control this.

I feel that this thread is now going around in circles so I'll let you and others continue to discuss.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
11,688
7,291
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
If you make statements like from 1999-2010, optically the club was doing everything in its power to succeed but havent since (like we've just quit), at least offer up suggestions as to what they were doing then that they aren't now.

Dont hide behind the I don't work there excuse. I can imagine you wouldn't have been as positive after losing to Geel by 72 pts in Malthouses 10th year.

And you talk about culture and off field incidents, but it seems you have forgotten about Swan's antics, Didak and Shaw, Wellingham et al during the era you say we were doing everything to win a flag and they should now control this.

I feel that this thread is now going around in circles so I'll let you and others continue to discuss.
I don't think the last 10 years are intent, not quitting, just not getting it right. But it's not just the last 10 years by the way.

I'm not hiding or excusing, I can't possibly know because I don't work there, that is not excusing anything. It's not my job to offer up suggestions, that's the job of the club to run at optimum.

The rat pack? Yeah I'll wear that, still the premier has managed a dynasty with their culture issues, meanwhile the Pies.................. I guess my point on culture is it can be improved and is somewhat in the clubs control.

From the op I have speculated that there is / are problems, never claimed absolution. Seems it's fair speculation, but next you'll tell me if I can't offer 'evidence' or 'solution' then just shut up right?

I've more than once admitted I don't have the answers or if even the club may actually running the best it can but I doubt it.

But if the club is running at optimum or the club does not have the answers to improve then the future holds next to zero hope doesn't it.
 

Tarkyn_24

Hall of Famer
Dec 23, 2006
39,870
47,128
AFL Club
Collingwood
Big big call, and speculative at best. I'll say again why the tigas are in a dynasty, the main reason is because of the way they play, NOT personnel. Our 2010 - 2011 team that mind you has the 2nd highest %age EVER (only behind the machine) was not totally personnel reliant either.

It was culture and game plan, in saying that without getting off thread topic, there is no known universe that this current premier team could match that team from 10 years ago. Not in a gazillion years.

Point of the thread: The club is not operating the best it could, if it was, through out its history, we'd have way more flags, way more. Bookmark that!
Our 2010 and 2011 teams were also built in an environment of sixteen competing clubs, whereas Richmond’s dynasty has come in 2018-2020 where talent is spread relatively evenly amongst eighteen clubs.You’d expect our 2011 talent should exceed current day Richmond’s given that the overall pool of players is eleven percent larger; thereby reducing the average quality of player on those squads.

Don’t @ me anyone about GCS and GWS participating in 2011 and 2012 either - they hadn’t diluted the player pool yet given they were both predominantly made up of bottom agers and a couple of marquee mercenaries. It’s not the same as having a full core of 30 derived from draft pool after draft pool after draft pool.

The 2011 Pies SHOULD be ahead of 2018 Richmond in personnel so the fact it’s not clear cut is a testament to the talent Richmond have accumulated.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
11,688
7,291
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
Our 2010 and 2011 teams were also built in an environment of sixteen competing clubs, whereas Richmond’s dynasty has come in 2018-2020 where talent is spread relatively evenly amongst eighteen clubs.You’d expect our 2011 talent should exceed current day Richmond’s given that the overall pool of players is eleven percent larger; thereby reducing the average quality of player on those squads.

Don’t @ me anyone about GCS and GWS participating in 2011 and 2012 either - they hadn’t diluted the player pool yet given they were both predominantly made up of bottom agers and a couple of marquee mercenaries. It’s not the same as having a full core of 30 derived from draft pool after draft pool after draft pool.

The 2011 Pies SHOULD be ahead of 2018 Richmond in personnel so the fact it’s not clear cut is a testament to the talent Richmond have accumulated.
Good points. So what I'd like to see and what is entirely possible is Collingwood perform a hawks or tigas. We have the resources to do that, they can do it, why can't we? They did it in an 18 team talent diluted comp too, so why can't we?

The profile we have suggests we flag on a regular basis, we don't. Whether or not the club wants the profile it needs to find a way to match its profile, I believe it can.
 

Drought Break

All Australian
May 5, 2015
607
771
AFL Club
Collingwood
Good points. So what I'd like to see and what is entirely possible is Collingwood perform a hawks or tigas. We have the resources to do that, they can do it, why can't we? They did it in an 18 team talent diluted comp too, so why can't we?

The profile we have suggests we flag on a regular basis, we don't. Whether or not the club wants the profile it needs to find a way to match its profile, I believe it can.
a previous poster mentioned desire. ie will to win. All to often in the big games and lost Grand finals we have had to many of our top line players having poor games. 2018 it was our bottom end players that played above themselves and nearly got us over the line where the likes of Sidey, pendles and Grundy were very poor. Same result in the following 2019 prelim. Even going back to the 2010 and 11 GF'S we were a better side than St Kilda and very nearly lost that. 2011 another lost opportunity with some of our guns below par again. Swan toweled up by Ling etc.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
11,688
7,291
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
a previous poster mentioned desire. ie will to win. All to often in the big games and lost Grand finals we have had to many of our top line players having poor games. 2018 it was our bottom end players that played above themselves and nearly got us over the line where the likes of Sidey, pendles and Grundy were very poor. Same result in the following 2019 prelim. Even going back to the 2010 and 11 GF'S we were a better side than St Kilda and very nearly lost that. 2011 another lost opportunity with some of our guns below par again. Swan toweled up by Ling etc.
I'm not sure that was a pattern in previous windows, for example 02-03 we were no match for the lions from a talent perspective.

Probably 70 and 77 are the years we had (supposedly) solid favouritism, certainly 70, should've won those. 79 - 81 I don't think so, and I'm not really old enough to have an opinion on 64 and 66.

However if what you're saying is poor performances by our top players regularly in the big dance, well that is not by design and again I'd argue it's not a regular pattern or more so us than other teams.

BUT there are other things in the clubs control that I believe could be improved to give us more chance to succeed and match the profile.
 

JB1975

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 26, 2015
7,543
19,061
Elsewhere
AFL Club
Collingwood
Those Rocky movies were great.

It didn't matter how fit, fast or powerful Rocky's opponents were.

It didn't matter how well-drilled they were, how much more skillful they were, or how many steroids they had in their system.

As long as Rocky had the 'eye of the tiger', as long as he could manage at least one inspired and inspiring montage per movie, then Rocky would be champ and Clubber and Apollo and Drago would be chumps.

A pertinent lesson for the Pies, no doubt.
 

TKiL

Cancelled
Jul 22, 2017
5,692
7,253
Eastern Suburbs, Melb
AFL Club
Collingwood
I'm not sure that was a pattern in previous windows, for example 02-03 we were no match for the lions from a talent perspective.

Probably 70 and 77 are the years we had (supposedly) solid favouritism, certainly 70, should've won those. 79 - 81 I don't think so, and I'm not really old enough to have an opinion on 64 and 66.

However if what you're saying is poor performances by our top players regularly in the big dance, well that is not by design and again I'd argue it's not a regular pattern or more so us than other teams.

BUT there are other things in the clubs control that I believe could be improved to give us more chance to succeed and match the profile.
64 could have won with a bit of luck
66 SHOULD have won - finished on top of ladder, beat StKilda in 2nd semi- couldn't get job done in GF.... again
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
11,688
7,291
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
64 could have won with a bit of luck
66 SHOULD have won - finished on top of ladder, beat StKilda in 2nd semi- couldn't get job done in GF.... again
'Luck', any luck of the good kind rarely bestows our club, the last example was the drawn GF. Only a week later did the dominance of the premier reflect in the result.

When was the last time before that? Wasn't 90, maybe 58 where we were overwhelming underdogs? But by all reports, that was probably our greatest and grittiest premiership, luck had nothing to do with the win apparently.

Maybe 58 is something the club can draw on, yeah ok 6 decades ago, but if we don't start winning flags, slowly but surely that profile will erode - if it isn't already.
 

Mostfamousclub_Pies

Team Captain
Sep 23, 2019
508
496
AFL Club
Collingwood
In 1990 we had some pretty good luck. We didn’t get sucked into fights, and we didn’t lose our heads (mainly thanks to Matthews’ experience and tutelage).
Players were being KO’d and targeted, but the team never lost focus.
In 2010 we had good luck as well, thanks Milne. The following week we were well prepared and steeled by Malthouse.
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that our last two flags were won with the help of all time great coaches.
Playing for Collingwood is harder than playing for any other team. The pressure is immense, something the media never addresses.
You don’t make a GF every three years on average if you’re not earning your stripes, or living up to your name.
 

TKiL

Cancelled
Jul 22, 2017
5,692
7,253
Eastern Suburbs, Melb
AFL Club
Collingwood
'Luck', any luck of the good kind rarely bestows our club, the last example was the drawn GF. Only a week later did the dominance of the premier reflect in the result.

When was the last time before that? Wasn't 90, maybe 58 where we were overwhelming underdogs? But by all reports, that was probably our greatest and grittiest premiership, luck had nothing to do with the win apparently.

Maybe 58 is something the club can draw on, yeah ok 6 decades ago, but if we don't start winning flags, slowly but surely that profile will erode - if it isn't already.
No luck in 1958 - couple of tough guys ( The Weed and Hooker Harrison) and out played and out psyched Melb - we did it the hard way having lost the 2nd Semi to Melb then beating North in the prelim
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

TKiL

Cancelled
Jul 22, 2017
5,692
7,253
Eastern Suburbs, Melb
AFL Club
Collingwood
In 1990 we had some pretty good luck. We didn’t get sucked into fights, and we didn’t lose our heads (mainly thanks to Matthews’ experience and tutelage).
Players were being KO’d and targeted, but the team never lost focus.
In 2010 we had good luck as well, thanks Milne. The following week we were well prepared and steeled by Malthouse.
I don’t think it’s any coincidence that our last two flags were won with the help of all time great coaches.
Playing for Collingwood is harder than playing for any other team. The pressure is immense, something the media never addresses.
You don’t make a GF every three years on average if you’re not earning your stripes, or living up to your name.
Making a GF every 3 years is fine
Losing 2 out of 3 is not fine
 

Gone Critical

Moderator
Mar 11, 2007
12,527
17,418
Abbotsford
AFL Club
Collingwood
Colllingwood:
This club over its lifetime has carried a fear and reverence from outside its walls like no other. Well deserved over the first half of it's journey.

That reputation has since started to wane, on face value over the last 3 decades that fear and reverence has slowly eroded. No longer is the Collingwood team feared by opponents and their fans, even to the point of ridicule and pity.
I see where you are coming from but I think the argument you make is too one dimensional. We are no where near ridicule and pity. We remain one of the more successful AFL clubs.

I have followed Collingwood closely from the late 60's. The club has undergone change after change, seeking success. I think your argument probably best applies to that mid 70's time when the club realised it was too tied to its past exploits and had a belief things should just happen for us because of our powerful history. We were wedded to that.

Since then the club has morphed a number of times with varying degrees of success, always with the prime aim of winning flags. Ern Clarke arrived in 75, a non Collingwood person in the sense of who had run Collingwood in the past. A young business man with new ideas. Wasn't fully accepted, didn't last. John Hickey wasn't Collingwood born and bred, bought in the 1st non COllingwood coach, club played in 4 GF's (5 if you count the draw) in his 6 year reign.

Ranald McDonalds "New Magpies" came next.Radical change, a different type of board for a new age. We would go all out on expensive recruits, spend big, win big. Went broke. Big Al was part of the New Magpies but was able to extricate himself and step into the shoes and lead us to a flag. He had problems too. Turning the VP precinct into "Maggieland" and making it an AFL ground didnt work and cost. Eddie ultimately stepped in.

I think the current mood reflects the supporter belief that Eddie has stayed too long and the 2020 off season fiascos reinforce that.

But to me this isn't a new awakening, its the next chapter in club history. I hate out failure to turn relative success into flags. It grinds. Causes are multifaceted. There are lessons to be learned from the teams seeing sustained success but also from what less successful clubs do also. We are not a giant above and beyond the competition in a way that gives us advantage over all other. We are one of the big clubs and that helps. WCE, Adel, Ess, Hawks, Cats, Rich and maybe Carlton again have similar advantages. I don' think it helps to see ourselves as bigger than all so expect we can achieve more success than others with a similar effort. Takes our eye off the ball.

I think we have changed again and again in the last 50 years all with an aim of sustained success. I just pray we crack it and I see those multiple falgs in my lifetime.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
11,688
7,291
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
I see where you are coming from but I think the argument you make is too one dimensional
Yes it is, and here is a one dimensional comment. No ifs buts or maybes, the last 6 decades we have NOT performed like a club with a profile like ours. We have that profile, if the club wants to maintain it then success is required, otherwise that profile will eventually erode. No ifs buts or maybes

We are not a giant above and beyond the competition in a way that gives us advantage over all other. We are one of the big clubs and that helps.
No we aren't, but if you're a visitor from overseas who sees you'd think we're a Man united. Again the performance has not warranted the profile we have.

I just pray we crack it and I see those multiple falgs in my lifetime.
Pray, hope, we've always had that. If that's all we have then your hopes are false. Evidence shows we cannot rely on luck for success, BUT on face value there are things the club can control that they haven't over long periods - certainly the last decade, that would've enhanced our chances.
 

Gone Critical

Moderator
Mar 11, 2007
12,527
17,418
Abbotsford
AFL Club
Collingwood
Yes it is, and here is a one dimensional comment. No ifs buts or maybes, the last 6 decades we have NOT performed like a club with a profile like ours. We have that profile, if the club wants to maintain it then success is required, otherwise that profile will eventually erode.
I don’t think the last 6 decades can be bundled as one. Our success hasn’t been what we want but we have made multiple attempts to recreate and modernise the club to win the flags we crave. This is the next step on that path not a new beginning


Pray, hope, we've always had that. If that's all we have then your hopes are false. Evidence shows we cannot rely on luck for success, BUT on face value there are things the club can control that they haven't over long periods - certainly the last decade, that would've enhanced our chances.
Pray and hope is our role as supporters and apply pressure with voting at elections etc. Pray , hope and relying on luck isn’t any role for the club itself to play.

We want the club to continue to aim for best practice, use all our advantages to the max and be a modern successful footy club. We have been doing that but Eddie stayed too long and we have let ourselves down at times. All clubs do to lesser or greater extents. I just don’t see the line in the sand you are seeing. We want the same success but for me it remains as part of an ongoing effort not a new dawn.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
11,688
7,291
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
We want the club to continue to aim for best practice, use all our advantages to the max and be a modern successful footy club. We have been doing that but Eddie stayed too long and we have let ourselves down at times. All clubs do to lesser or greater extents. I just don’t see the line in the sand you are seeing. We want the same success but for me it remains as part of an ongoing effort not a new dawn.
1/ Not just under Eddies reign, but this is what I'm getting at. Things that ARE in the clubs control, individually or collectively

2/ If this is the reality, then I hold near zero hope for future success. We will, as a fan base, will be purely relying on luck on behalf of the team.

Oh well, so long deserved profile. :shrug:
 

jonmacTrag

Club Legend
May 27, 2020
1,944
2,075
AFL Club
Collingwood
Well a limited type of rebuild seems to be going on and we are becoming aware of shortcomings in administration that really should be addressed.

Information coming to light revealing that the training surface has had a lot of money spent on it and is now much softer underfoot should be well received but WTF did it take so long to move on what was an obvious poor surface in the first place? And why persistently deny it was a poor surface??

Time to stop bitching about having to pay the AFL tax and get on with providing the coaching staff the players need to achieve the ultimate. Even if we have to eke the money out of somewhere else the monetary pain surely must be worth it to have a decent, well rounded coaching and support staff to help the players achieve to their potential.

A decent ruck coach please for god's sake and in heavens name make him full time and while we are talking coaches how about a goal kicking coach worth his salary?
 

Linda_Lovelace

Premiership Player
Jul 28, 2004
3,691
5,523
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood
Well a limited type of rebuild seems to be going on and we are becoming aware of shortcomings in administration that really should be addressed.

Information coming to light revealing that the training surface has had a lot of money spent on it and is now much softer underfoot should be well received but WTF did it take so long to move on what was an obvious poor surface in the first place? And why persistently deny it was a poor surface??

Time to stop bitching about having to pay the AFL tax and get on with providing the coaching staff the players need to achieve the ultimate. Even if we have to eke the money out of somewhere else the monetary pain surely must be worth it to have a decent, well rounded coaching and support staff to help the players achieve to their potential.

A decent ruck coach please for god's sake and in heavens name make him full time and while we are talking coaches how about a goal kicking coach worth his salary?
Mate, we have to house the homeless, fund loss makers like woman's footy and netball and god knows what other non core programs.

We ceased being a footy club some time ago, IMO its time to get back to basics.
 

magpies42

Premiership Player
Jun 10, 2005
4,972
2,470
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
collingwood
Well a limited type of rebuild seems to be going on and we are becoming aware of shortcomings in administration that really should be addressed.

Information coming to light revealing that the training surface has had a lot of money spent on it and is now much softer underfoot should be well received but WTF did it take so long to move on what was an obvious poor surface in the first place? And why persistently deny it was a poor surface??

Time to stop bitching about having to pay the AFL tax and get on with providing the coaching staff the players need to achieve the ultimate. Even if we have to eke the money out of somewhere else the monetary pain surely must be worth it to have a decent, well rounded coaching and support staff to help the players achieve to their potential.

A decent ruck coach please for god's sake and in heavens name make him full time and while we are talking coaches how about a goal kicking coach worth his salary?
Could not agree more!
 

jonmacTrag

Club Legend
May 27, 2020
1,944
2,075
AFL Club
Collingwood
We just announced a loss of $1.8 million. There is no way we will up spending and pay the tax.
jmac get past the present son.

It's about the attitude the club needs to take going forward.

This club has been soft, soft, soft for too many years. Taking it whenever the AFL says FCK. Time to stop being fresh pussie every time the AFL gets a hardon for some new money making scheme. We've been their cash cow ever since the glory days in the '30's.

FCK the AFL, time to start looking after this club FIRST.

Ohhh the poor widdle Demons are cash strapped, let's pay them all the gate reciepts and help them out. FCK that! Let them beg for it from the AFL.

Ohhhh the AFL needs a big drawcard for a new franchise team... FCK that! Every Collingwood fan boycotts the game AND the telecast.

Ohhh the AFL needs to stop Collingwood threatening to take a flag and so brings in a new rule and instructs the maggots to umpire us out of games. FCK that too! Open up the coffers and pay some film making members to tape the entire game - every game - and take the FCKIN AFL to court for restraint of trade.

The game has been taken away from the fans with bullshit rules and a bullshit enforced 'premiership cycle'.

Collingwood FIRST, get our house in order and start making our own history instead of dancing to the AFL media music.

Here endeth the rant.
 

MagpieJoel

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 5, 2002
9,481
7,730
Victoria
AFL Club
Collingwood
jmac get past the present son.

It's about the attitude the club needs to take going forward.

This club has been soft, soft, soft for too many years. Taking it whenever the AFL says FCK. Time to stop being fresh pussie every time the AFL gets a hardon for some new money making scheme. We've been their cash cow ever since the glory days in the '30's.

FCK the AFL, time to start looking after this club FIRST.

Ohhh the poor widdle Demons are cash strapped, let's pay them all the gate reciepts and help them out. FCK that! Let them beg for it from the AFL.

Ohhhh the AFL needs a big drawcard for a new franchise team... FCK that! Every Collingwood fan boycotts the game AND the telecast.

Ohhh the AFL needs to stop Collingwood threatening to take a flag and so brings in a new rule and instructs the maggots to umpire us out of games. FCK that too! Open up the coffers and pay some film making members to tape the entire game - every game - and take the FCKIN AFL to court for restraint of trade.

The game has been taken away from the fans with bullshit rules and a bullshit enforced 'premiership cycle'.

Collingwood FIRST, get our house in order and start making our own history instead of dancing to the AFL media music.

Here endeth the rant.
Reads like a Trump speech, but I don't disagree.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Remove this Banner Ad