Time to re-think the secondary markets

[Walshawk]

Let's assume Tassie comes in the next five years as team 19. This is the perfect opportunity to maximise the benefits to the comp and the code of teams playing games in smaller markets.
Currently
Launceston - Hawks x 4 (year by year contract)
Hobart - North x 4 (year by year)
GWS - Canberra x 3 (year by year)
GC - Darwin x 1 (contract ends next year)
Saints - Cairns x 1 (year by year @ $650K) -
Dogs - Ballarat x 2 (part of Vic Govt funding of Marvel upgrades deal)
Dees - 1 x Alice Springs

North and Hawks = eight games to be played elsewhere. Saints are unhappy with on field - weather/results, and it makes no sense for a Vic club to be playing in Queensland while the Suns play in NT. All contract end this year or next.

Possible new venues
Albury - Stadium just upgraded - only 1500 grandstand but decent facilities and total capacity for around 15K. AFL heartland crowds would be string, hopefully council comes to the party with incentives
Newcastle - Currently being upgraded, only 800 grandstand but similar sized hills to Albury.
Townsville - has hosted one AFL game, capacity is 9k
Wellington - has hosted two Saints games capacity is 25K. There is talk of Western Springs in Auckland being expanded to suit AFL, but that could be a decade away.

Based on what we saw during 2020/21 is that clubs playing one off games in new markets will draw a big crowd (Vioc club games in Pert, Tassie, GC, etc), so rather than continue with the current model of clubs adopting regions (until fans get sick of that club), I am suggesting rotating clubs through these markets, rather than one club wearing out their welcome like North in Hobart. The one exception to this would be to send GC back to Queensland, and North take over NT. Now that their on field woes are fixed, GC can hand over the NT Academy to North who need it now. Also it is time for GWS to fully embrace Western Sydney with a name change and more games in Western Sydney, but they can maintain their memberships in Canberra via away games. IF they are not going to have a 100% crack at Western Sydney, you might as well move them to Canberra (that is a discussion for another time).

New structure once Tassie come in:-
Darwin - North x 1.
Albury - North x 1
Ballarat - Dogs x 1, Saints x 1
Newcastle - Dees x 1 (same colours as Knights, or could put Giants here and Dees in Canberra). It is crazy to have no games in a city of 550K (Newcastle/Maitland), with another 350K between Newcastle and Sydney on the Central Coast.
Canberra - Hawks, Saints, Dogs, North, GWS x 1 (over Easter show). GWS also away team x 2, so maintaining their three games and fan base. Five games, the AFL can really test their appetite for footy.
Cairns - GC x 1

This spread will ensure better crowds at games which is what the AFL and broadcaster want. Clubs get a set fee play a major share of the gate to ensure games are promoted properly. These should be promotional games, not just designed to fill the pockets of struggling clubs.

I have no games at Alice Springs - tiny town, with a substandard venue, crowds of 5k - 7k are more suited to preseason or AFLW.

This discussion is predicated upon Tassie entering the comp as team 19 in the next five years, and also assumes no 20th team in the next decade, so no discussion of that please.

What are your suggestions?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

What are you trying to achieve?

Easy money for the clubs? For them to own that market? To promote Aussie Rules there because they wont get a team for 20-50 years if ever? I reckon the priority of the answers to these 3 questions, sets the agenda.

 

[The_Wookie]

Let's assume Tassie comes in the next five years as team 19. This is the perfect opportunity to maximise the benefits to the comp and the code of teams playing games in smaller markets.
Currently
Launceston - Hawks x 4 (year by year contract)
Hobart - North x 4 (year by year)
GWS - Canberra x 3 (year by year)
GC - Darwin x 1 (contract ends next year)
Saints - Cairns x 1 (year by year @ $650K) -
Dogs - Ballarat x 2 (part of Vic Govt funding of Marvel upgrades deal)
Dees - 1 x Alice Springs

North and Hawks = eight games to be played elsewhere. Saints are unhappy with on field - weather/results, and it makes no sense for a Vic club to be playing in Queensland while the Suns play in NT. All contract end this year or next.

Possible new venues
Albury - Stadium just upgraded - only 1500 grandstand but decent facilities and total capacity for around 15K. AFL heartland crowds would be string, hopefully council comes to the party with incentives
Newcastle - Currently being upgraded, only 800 grandstand but similar sized hills to Albury.
Townsville - has hosted one AFL game, capacity is 9k
Wellington - has hosted two Saints games capacity is 25K. There is talk of Western Springs in Auckland being expanded to suit AFL, but that could be a decade away.

Based on what we saw during 2020/21 is that clubs playing one off games in new markets will draw a big crowd (Vioc club games in Pert, Tassie, GC, etc), so rather than continue with the current model of clubs adopting regions (until fans get sick of that club), I am suggesting rotating clubs through these markets, rather than one club wearing out their welcome like North in Hobart. The one exception to this would be to send GC back to Queensland, and North take over NT. Now that their on field woes are fixed, GC can hand over the NT Academy to North who need it now. Also it is time for GWS to fully embrace Western Sydney with a name change and more games in Western Sydney, but they can maintain their memberships in Canberra via away games. IF they are not going to have a 100% crack at Western Sydney, you might as well move them to Canberra (that is a discussion for another time).

New structure once Tassie come in:-
Darwin - North x 1.
Albury - North x 1
Ballarat - Dogs x 1, Saints x 1
Newcastle - Dees x 1 (same colours as Knights, or could put Giants here and Dees in Canberra). It is crazy to have no games in a city of 550K (Newcastle/Maitland), with another 350K between Newcastle and Sydney on the Central Coast.
Canberra - Hawks, Saints, Dogs, North, GWS x 1 (over Easter show). GWS also away team x 2, so maintaining their three games and fan base. Five games, the AFL can really test their appetite for footy.
Cairns - GC x 1

This spread will ensure better crowds at games which is what the AFL and broadcaster want. Clubs get a set fee play a major share of the gate to ensure games are promoted properly. These should be promotional games, not just designed to fill the pockets of struggling clubs.

I have no games at Alice Springs - tiny town, with a substandard venue, crowds of 5k - 7k are more suited to preseason or AFLW.

This discussion is predicated upon Tassie entering the comp as team 19 in the next five years, and also assumes no 20th team in the next decade, so no discussion of that please.

What are your suggestions?

Tassie is going to be a secondary market by every measure. We can start your thing off by just not having it.

 

[fargothegreat]

Let's assume Tassie comes in the next five years as team 19. This is the perfect opportunity to maximise the benefits to the comp and the code of teams playing games in smaller markets.
Currently
Launceston - Hawks x 4 (year by year contract)
Hobart - North x 4 (year by year)
GWS - Canberra x 3 (year by year)
GC - Darwin x 1 (contract ends next year)
Saints - Cairns x 1 (year by year @ $650K) -
Dogs - Ballarat x 2 (part of Vic Govt funding of Marvel upgrades deal)
Dees - 1 x Alice Springs

North and Hawks = eight games to be played elsewhere. Saints are unhappy with on field - weather/results, and it makes no sense for a Vic club to be playing in Queensland while the Suns play in NT. All contract end this year or next.

Possible new venues
Albury - Stadium just upgraded - only 1500 grandstand but decent facilities and total capacity for around 15K. AFL heartland crowds would be string, hopefully council comes to the party with incentives
Newcastle - Currently being upgraded, only 800 grandstand but similar sized hills to Albury.
Townsville - has hosted one AFL game, capacity is 9k
Wellington - has hosted two Saints games capacity is 25K. There is talk of Western Springs in Auckland being expanded to suit AFL, but that could be a decade away.

Based on what we saw during 2020/21 is that clubs playing one off games in new markets will draw a big crowd (Vioc club games in Pert, Tassie, GC, etc), so rather than continue with the current model of clubs adopting regions (until fans get sick of that club), I am suggesting rotating clubs through these markets, rather than one club wearing out their welcome like North in Hobart. The one exception to this would be to send GC back to Queensland, and North take over NT. Now that their on field woes are fixed, GC can hand over the NT Academy to North who need it now. Also it is time for GWS to fully embrace Western Sydney with a name change and more games in Western Sydney, but they can maintain their memberships in Canberra via away games. IF they are not going to have a 100% crack at Western Sydney, you might as well move them to Canberra (that is a discussion for another time).

New structure once Tassie come in:-
Darwin - North x 1.
Albury - North x 1
Ballarat - Dogs x 1, Saints x 1
Newcastle - Dees x 1 (same colours as Knights, or could put Giants here and Dees in Canberra). It is crazy to have no games in a city of 550K (Newcastle/Maitland), with another 350K between Newcastle and Sydney on the Central Coast.
Canberra - Hawks, Saints, Dogs, North, GWS x 1 (over Easter show). GWS also away team x 2, so maintaining their three games and fan base. Five games, the AFL can really test their appetite for footy.
Cairns - GC x 1

This spread will ensure better crowds at games which is what the AFL and broadcaster want. Clubs get a set fee play a major share of the gate to ensure games are promoted properly. These should be promotional games, not just designed to fill the pockets of struggling clubs.

I have no games at Alice Springs - tiny town, with a substandard venue, crowds of 5k - 7k are more suited to preseason or AFLW.

This discussion is predicated upon Tassie entering the comp as team 19 in the next five years, and also assumes no 20th team in the next decade, so no discussion of that please.

What are your suggestions?

Most important thing is one team per market, and an appropriate team in each market. No point having a Vic team playing in Queensland, when a Queensland team is looking to sell games.

Gold Coast

• Cairns x 1, Townsville x 1 + QLD Academy

North

• Darwin x 2 + NT Academy

GWS

• Canberra x 3 + ACT Academy

Dogs

• Ballarat x 2

Melbourne

• Newcastle x 1

St Kilda

• Wellington x 1, Auckland x 1 (AFL should push for stadium to be built) + NZ Academy

 

[Kwality]

Let's assume Tassie comes in the next five years as team 19. This is the perfect opportunity to maximise the benefits to the comp and the code of teams playing games in smaller markets.
Currently
Launceston - Hawks x 4 (year by year contract)
Hobart - North x 4 (year by year)
GWS - Canberra x 3 (year by year)
GC - Darwin x 1 (contract ends next year)
Saints - Cairns x 1 (year by year @ $650K) -
Dogs - Ballarat x 2 (part of Vic Govt funding of Marvel upgrades deal)
Dees - 1 x Alice Springs

North and Hawks = eight games to be played elsewhere. Saints are unhappy with on field - weather/results, and it makes no sense for a Vic club to be playing in Queensland while the Suns play in NT. All contract end this year or next.

Possible new venues
Albury - Stadium just upgraded - only 1500 grandstand but decent facilities and total capacity for around 15K. AFL heartland crowds would be string, hopefully council comes to the party with incentives
Newcastle - Currently being upgraded, only 800 grandstand but similar sized hills to Albury.
Townsville - has hosted one AFL game, capacity is 9k
Wellington - has hosted two Saints games capacity is 25K. There is talk of Western Springs in Auckland being expanded to suit AFL, but that could be a decade away.

Based on what we saw during 2020/21 is that clubs playing one off games in new markets will draw a big crowd (Vioc club games in Pert, Tassie, GC, etc), so rather than continue with the current model of clubs adopting regions (until fans get sick of that club), I am suggesting rotating clubs through these markets, rather than one club wearing out their welcome like North in Hobart. The one exception to this would be to send GC back to Queensland, and North take over NT. Now that their on field woes are fixed, GC can hand over the NT Academy to North who need it now. Also it is time for GWS to fully embrace Western Sydney with a name change and more games in Western Sydney, but they can maintain their memberships in Canberra via away games. IF they are not going to have a 100% crack at Western Sydney, you might as well move them to Canberra (that is a discussion for another time).

New structure once Tassie come in:-
Darwin - North x 1.
Albury - North x 1
Ballarat - Dogs x 1, Saints x 1
Newcastle - Dees x 1 (same colours as Knights, or could put Giants here and Dees in Canberra). It is crazy to have no games in a city of 550K (Newcastle/Maitland), with another 350K between Newcastle and Sydney on the Central Coast.
Canberra - Hawks, Saints, Dogs, North, GWS x 1 (over Easter show). GWS also away team x 2, so maintaining their three games and fan base. Five games, the AFL can really test their appetite for footy.
Cairns - GC x 1

This spread will ensure better crowds at games which is what the AFL and broadcaster want. Clubs get a set fee play a major share of the gate to ensure games are promoted properly. These should be promotional games, not just designed to fill the pockets of struggling clubs.

I have no games at Alice Springs - tiny town, with a substandard venue, crowds of 5k - 7k are more suited to preseason or AFLW.

This discussion is predicated upon Tassie entering the comp as team 19 in the next five years, and also assumes no 20th team in the next decade, so no discussion of that please.

What are your suggestions?

Where is the money coming from ?

 

[kranger]

I like this thread. I was thinking about starting something very similar where we can discuss all the games that get sold to different locations, instead always talking about it in threads for Tasmanian or Canberra.

On that point, is there any chance of getting all of the Tassie threads merged into one. And likewise, getting all the Canberra threads merged into one?

 

[Walshawk]

Where is the money coming from ?

Same place it does now. State and local government looking to boost spending and tourism in the area.

 

[Kwality]

Same place it does now. State and local government looking to boost spending and tourism in the area.

I am cynical of these arrangements. Where successful they are transparent, e.g the Hawks/Tassie deal that is/was more than 'selling a game'.
Not many fill that bill.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Tassie is going to be a secondary market by every measure. We can start your thing off by just not having it.

Your bizarre hatred of anything Tasmania grows buy the day doesn’t it.

 

[The_Wookie]

Your bizarre hatred of anything Tasmania grows buy the day doesn’t it.

I dont hate Tasmania. I lived there for half of the last three years. I do hate some of the more ridiculous justifications for it though.

 

[kranger]

If Tasmania does get a team, would Hawks still look to sell games, or would they settle back into Melbourne?

They seem to be a lot better off compared to when they started down in Tassie.

 

[kranger]

It seems like Melbourne is saturated with games, which is why so many games are sold to secondary markets. But that is great thing, because those secondary markets are never going to be home to a team.

I think all of the non Melbourne teams need to play as many games at their home venue as possible (i.e. GWS, Geelong, Gold Coast).

Any games that get played in regional NSW and QLD, like Newcastle and Townsville should be home games for the Melbourne based teams.

But the away team in the game is always a respective NSW or QLD team. That way the Melbourne team gets the cash, and the NSW and QLD team gets more local exposure.

So an example would be:

Year 1:
Newcastle - St Kilda vs Sydney
Wollongong - North Melbourne vs GWS
Townsville - St Kilda vs Brisbane
Cairns - North Melbourne vs Gold Coast

Year 2:
Newcastle - St Kilda vs GWS
Wollongong - North Melbourne vs Sydney
Townsville - St Kilda vs Gold Coast
Cairns - North Melbourne vs Brisbane

Repeat

 

[Walshawk]

If Tasmania does get a team, would Hawks still look to sell games, or would they settle back into Melbourne?

They seem to be a lot better off compared to when they started down in Tassie.

Our current president will put money before anything else. But he will be gone soon. We need to do what is best for our members (as many MCG games as possible) and our on field success (as many MCG games as possible). There is not reason we should not get as many MCG games as MelBourne (10). Pies get 9 and Tigers 10 this year. I would be happy with a game or two at another secondary venue as long as we get 9 at MCG.

 

[COOGRE]

Our current president will put money before anything else. But he will be gone soon. We need to do what is best for our members (as many MCG games as possible) and our on field success (as many MCG games as possible). There is not reason we should not get as many MCG games as MelBourne (10). Pies get 9 and Tigers 10 this year. I would be happy with a game or two at another secondary venue as long as we get 9 at MCG.

Melbourne are such a waste playing at the G. Hawks should sign a contract to play at marvel. They arent big enough for the G and will lose money. Even Carlton and Essendon have a marvel contract and dont fill it out.

 

[kranger]

The AFL is playing at a tiny ground in a small town this weekend. They did the same thing 70 years ago

With games being played at Norwood Oval and the minuscule Mt Barker Oval, the professionalised AFL is nodding towards its origins in paddocks and fields in regional towns.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Walshawk]

The AFL is playing at a tiny ground in a small town this weekend. They did the same thing 70 years ago

With games being played at Norwood Oval and the minuscule Mt Barker Oval, the professionalised AFL is nodding towards its origins in paddocks and fields in regional towns.

www.abc.net.au

Really great article.

 

[Coolangatta]

Gather Round is an awesome idea; I do wonder, though, if Norwood Oval and Adelaide Hills were the only other grounds they could've used for the round. Would be nice to see even more local suburban grounds used, but I understand that money needs to be made and maximising AO is an effective way to do that. I'd love to see it rotated throughout Australia, and even in Victoria, using old grounds from the VFL days.

 

[Rob]

Tassie is going to be a secondary market by every measure. We can start your thing off by just not having it.

I assumed by secondary market he meant markets that did not have an AFL team. If Tassie gets a team then by that definition it no longer would be a secondary market.

It's a fair discussion IMO given the current reliance on Tassie games by 2 AFL clubs at the moment.

 

[whiskeytown]

Bulldogs have Ballarat… given the number of away games in Melbourne… the Dogs should play 3-4 there instead of the current 2

Hawthorn and Melbourne are probably big enough for the time being to get by by only being in Melbourne… perhaps a 2nd market could be Gippsland?

NM and St Kilda are in need of the 2nd market

St Kilda should return to NZ. NZ Government and corporate money is the key to it… but every kiwi I know loves AFL… once they understand it. And NZ is by far the biggest untapped market in the region.

I think the Suns need nth QLD as a 2nd market…

Likewise I think Newcastle would be a great market for the Giants… if they drop the greater western Sydney name

Canberra would ideally be team 20… but I think team 20 is likely from WA

NM? I don’t mind the idea of north playing 3 games out of Darwin each year. Otherwise central Victoria eg Bendigo& Shepparton

The Murray region should be reserved for any potential Canberra team if Canberra is indeed team 20

 

[Kwality]

Bulldogs have Ballarat… given the number of away games in Melbourne… the Dogs should play 3-4 there instead of the current 2

Hawthorn and Melbourne are probably big enough for the time being to get by by only being in Melbourne… perhaps a 2nd market could be Gippsland?

NM and St Kilda are in need of the 2nd market

St Kilda should return to NZ. NZ Government and corporate money is the key to it… but every kiwi I know loves AFL… once they understand it. And NZ is by far the biggest untapped market in the region.

I think the Suns need nth QLD as a 2nd market…

Likewise I think Newcastle would be a great market for the Giants… if they drop the greater western Sydney name

Canberra would ideally be team 20… but I think team 20 is likely from WA

NM? I don’t mind the idea of north playing 3 games out of Darwin each year. Otherwise central Victoria eg Bendigo& Shepparton

The Murray region should be reserved for any potential Canberra team if Canberra is indeed team 20

There is certainly more footy in Melbourne than there are bums on seats. Needing the support of State Governments (+NZ) for funding AFL FIXtures saves the AFL the funding they need for games that cant $breakeven in Melbourne.

NZ gave it a try but when they analysed it, it was a dud deal for them, 'so thanks, but no thanks'

 

[Coolangatta]

IF Tasmania enters in 2028, THEN:

Have North play 3 games in Darwin, move 1 game back to Melbourne
Have the Hawks play 2 games in NZ, move 2 games back to Melbourne
Move the Suns 2 Darwin games to Cairns

IF Canberra enters in 2033, THEN:

Have the Giants play 1-2 games in Newcastle, probably just 1 (need to concentrate on WS)

Dogs to stay in Ballarat; Saints to keep games in Melbourne.

That's all they need to do, really.

 

[whiskeytown]

There is certainly more footy in Melbourne than there are bums on seats. Needing the support of State Governments (+NZ) for funding AFL FIXtures saves the AFL the funding they need for games that cant $breakeven in Melbourne.

NZ gave it a try but when they analysed it, it was a dud deal for them, 'so thanks, but no thanks'

The VFL… pre AFL… played games in other markets. This is not new

2-3 games a year in NZ is a long, slow burn… one step forward, one step back… but by far the most lucrative market (in terms of expansion and money) to persevere with in the long term..

if a club… in partnership with the AFL, sponsors, govt… is forward thinking enough to commit to it for a 10 year period… then the supporter base and junior pathways there are worth the endeavour

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

The VFL… pre AFL… played games in other markets. This is not new

2-3 games a year in NZ is a long, slow burn… one step forward, one step back… but by far the most lucrative market (in terms of expansion and money) to persevere with in the long term..

if a club… in partnership with the AFL, sponsors, govt… is forward thinking enough to commit to it for a 10 year period… then the supporter base and junior pathways there are worth the endeavour

There isn’t a suitable venue in Auckland, which is one of the main impediments to staging a game in NZ atm. St Kilda held games in Wellington some time ago, although Auckland’s population is almost 4 x larger, so I don’t think the time, effort and cost will be justifiable until they can hold a game at a decent venue in the country’s largest city.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Let's assume Tassie comes in the next five years as team 19. This is the perfect opportunity to maximise the benefits to the comp and the code of teams playing games in smaller markets.
Currently
Launceston - Hawks x 4 (year by year contract)
Hobart - North x 4 (year by year)
GWS - Canberra x 3 (year by year)
GC - Darwin x 1 (contract ends next year)
Saints - Cairns x 1 (year by year @ $650K) -
Dogs - Ballarat x 2 (part of Vic Govt funding of Marvel upgrades deal)
Dees - 1 x Alice Springs
What are your suggestions?

Canberra’s new contract with the GWS Giants is a long term 10 year contract that expires in 2032. It’s for 3 AFL games (with an option to buy a fourth if available) and 1 AFLW (2 if the AFLW fixtures expand).

 

[whiskeytown]

There isn’t a suitable venue in Auckland, which is one of the main impediments to staging a game in NZ atm. St Kilda held games in Wellington some time ago, although Auckland’s population is almost 4 x larger, so I don’t think the time, effort and cost will be justifiable until they can hold a game at a decent venue in the country’s largest city.

They’re working on it…

New Auckland venue strategy includes new AFL Oval – AFL New Zealand

A new central city stadium and an international Cricket/AFL oval at Western Springs are included in a Venue Development Strategy released by Auckland Mayor Phil Goff. Produced by Regional Facilities Auckland (RFA), the Venue Development Strategy outlines a future vision for Auckland’s venues...

www.aflnz.co.nz