Time to sharpen the Ax !

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Thread starter #1
Great to have footy back.

Blues are primed to beat the Dees, a couple of good wins (even though they were practise matches) and nobody expecting us to win, eases the pressure on the team.

But - if we lose and I hear anymore vague, non-committal excuses from Pagan, then it'll be time to call for his axeing.
Get rid of him and get some new ideas in there to take us to the next level
 

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celtic_pride

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#2
I don't think we can afford to give Pagan the arse after all our money problems and the contract extension that Collo and the board gave him last year (which was probably pre-mature after the Wiz Cup win)
I really don't think pagan is an ideal coach for younger players but what can you do ? There isn't a bevy of ideal replacements out there anyway .
 

bibi01

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#4
surpstar said:
Great to have footy back.

Blues are primed to beat the Dees, a couple of good wins (even though they were practise matches) and nobody expecting us to win, eases the pressure on the team.

But - if we lose and I hear anymore vague, non-committal excuses from Pagan, then it'll be time to call for his axeing.
Get rid of him and get some new ideas in there to take us to the next level
and if we win...........what role will pagan have played in the win????????

you can't blame the coach for all the problems, there is no 1 scapegoat. coaches and players both need to take responsibility.

on the coaches
ratten- is a fair call
worsfold- why would he want to leave WA he is from there and we didn't give him the job when we had the chance to?
harvey- he left essendon for freo..................geez i wonder why, maybe he is being groomed as their next senior coach :eek:
mcguane- if he was any good he would have been snapped up already, he will be a career assistant coach at afl level
 

bLUE_bALLs

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#5
surpstar said:
A few replacement options:

Brett Ratten
Mick McGuane
try to get Worsfold from the Eagles
Mark Harvey

Any others that people can think of?

not saying i think he could coach.... but having Silvagni come back to the club as coach would be awesome.

just imagine what it would do for membership/sponsorship alone
 

HBF

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#6
surpstar said:
Great to have footy back.

Blues are primed to beat the Dees, a couple of good wins (even though they were practise matches) and nobody expecting us to win, eases the pressure on the team.

But - if we lose and I hear anymore vague, non-committal excuses from Pagan, then it'll be time to call for his axeing.
Get rid of him and get some new ideas in there to take us to the next level
I've said it before on previous threads and i'll say it again. How can anyone possibly level all of the the blame at Pagan. When he came to Carlton, he inherited a club that was just about to receive the draft sanctions from the AFL, what was to be and still is the weakest list in the AFL, and the many off-field problems that the club had had to deal with - no of these have anything to do with Pagan.

He has also turned Fevola around, right from a player that was going to get the ar$e if Brittian had have stayed, to a 60+ goal kicker a year. He nearly always talks the club up, and doesn't get invoved in the off-field stuff - ala MM.

I like Pagan as a coach. Sure he hasn't got the runs on the board at Carlton, but name me one coach who could have done better with the same list.
 

pumped

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#7
HugeBluesFan said:
I've said it before on previous threads and i'll say it again. How can anyone possibly level all of the the blame at Pagan. When he came to Carlton, he inherited a club that was just about to receive the draft sanctions from the AFL, what was to be and still is the weakest list in the AFL, and the many off-field problems that the club had had to deal with - no of these have anything to do with Pagan.

He has also turned Fevola around, right from a player that was going to get the ar$e if Brittian had have stayed, to a 60+ goal kicker a year. He nearly always talks the club up, and doesn't get invoved in the off-field stuff - ala MM.

I like Pagan as a coach. Sure he hasn't got the runs on the board at Carlton, but name me one coach who could have done better with the same list.
Hi Huge Blues Fan,

I do feel that you make some good points and I do agree that Pagan has the ability to still be a good coach. However his biggest weakness is an ego based on reputation. One coach who immediatly springs to mind who would have done better in my opinion is Roos.

His strength is Pagan's weakness. He is a people person who motivates players to be their best. Denis I believe has more wisdom than Roos but at this point in his life isn't reaching people. If Denis could look deeply within himself I believe he would find some answers to reach deep inside many of his players. I dont believe Denis is balanced in himself and therefor cannot balance wayward talent on his list.

With regards to the list it does appear that it is the weakest in the comp. However many players on the list are weaker now than they were when Denis arrived. Further the Sydney list at 05 start were no world beaters either. With regards to Fev I dont believe Denis has reached him. He is still unbalanced and I believe has goals on the board mainly because he has been given more ground time. So Denis has helped in playing him for longer but hasn't had a lasting affect on his output whilst on the ground.

Overall the whole personal at Carlton need to look deep within and bond togeather with discipline and honesty. We have potentially a good coach and a good list. It will be up to the mental willpower of those involved as to if we finish 6-10 or 10-16.
 

Stig O'Hara

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#8
Watched a special on how Barassi got to Carlton on Fox last night,
and couldn't help but notice similarities,
as to present situation with the Blues,

George Harris took on and won the club presidency,
which in 1964 was on its knees,
got Barassi who at that stage was an untried coach,
but marketable,
and with a bit of cheque book nous, and gun kids
won a flag within 4 years,

However in the first 2 years,
every man and their dog was after Barass and George
(the only man to go into changi prison and come out fatter, so they say)

This club through its penalties has been sent back about 5 years,
but with the quality kids coming through,
well i reckon in 2 years,
i would be able to get them into the 8.

What i am saying is that in this transitional phase,
Pagan is on a hiding to nothing.
When he does go,
the club will be in a far better position than when he got there.
And that is really his job, given the circumstances when he arrived.
 

HBF

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#9
pumped said:
Hi Huge Blues Fan,

I do feel that you make some good points and I do agree that Pagan has the ability to still be a good coach. However his biggest weakness is an ego based on reputation. One coach who immediatly springs to mind who would have done better in my opinion is Roos.

His strength is Pagan's weakness. He is a people person who motivates players to be their best. Denis I believe has more wisdom than Roos but at this point in his life isn't reaching people. If Denis could look deeply within himself I believe he would find some answers to reach deep inside many of his players. I dont believe Denis is balanced in himself and therefor cannot balance wayward talent on his list.

With regards to the list it does appear that it is the weakest in the comp. However many players on the list are weaker now than they were when Denis arrived. Further the Sydney list at 05 start were no world beaters either. With regards to Fev I dont believe Denis has reached him. He is still unbalanced and I believe has goals on the board mainly because he has been given more ground time. So Denis has helped in playing him for longer but hasn't had a lasting affect on his output whilst on the ground.

Overall the whole personal at Carlton need to look deep within and bond togeather with discipline and honesty. We have potentially a good coach and a good list. It will be up to the mental willpower of those involved as to if we finish 6-10 or 10-16.
Hey Pumped, you make some good points and that's fair enough.

I still believe that the talent has just not been there over the years that Pagan has had the team, and that's why i'm prepared to cut him some slack. He deserves to be able to go through the hard yards in order to have some success later down the track. IMO, success is still some time off. This year I believe will be long, and anymore than 5-6 wins will be a bonus.

There will be some exciting times ahead i'm sure, and i'd love to see Pagan be there coaching the club when this happens.
 

audas

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#10
Explain to me how ANYONE could have done better with with no team whatsoever, no developing players whatsoever and no draf picks. Explain it. We have just had the opportunity to take ourplace back in the draft and to have obtained anything from it we had to finish last. Pagan has not had an opportunity yet to perform. He has not coached a single game of AFL football at carlton with a team free of AFL penalties. This will be his first.
Think about it. His first game on a level playing field and you are writing him off.

How can you judge, its just petulant. Its like listening to a child.

As far as Im concerned Denis Pagan starts coaching carlton on Sunday night. Lets see how he goes. If he fails thats totally fine.

Im actually appalled at peoples lack of understanding and support for Denis.

:thumbsdown:
 

iluvparis

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#11
I'm with Audas. Our list has been terrible and Pagan has probably done the best we could of hoped for (who could have got more wins in 2004!?). Apart from a few shining lights (Waite, Stevens, Lappin etc) we barely have a team good enough for VFL level.

I expect us to finish in the bottom 4 this year but as long as Waite continues his improvements and a few youngsters show something I can deal with that.

Unless we can get Matthews - there is no point getting rid of Pagan. Would you rather have Alistair Clarkson?:D
 

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pumped

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#12
iluvparis said:
I'm with Audas. Our list has been terrible and Pagan has probably done the best we could of hoped for (who could have got more wins in 2004!?). Apart from a few shining lights (Waite, Stevens, Lappin etc) we barely have a team good enough for VFL level.

I expect us to finish in the bottom 4 this year but as long as Waite continues his improvements and a few youngsters show something I can deal with that.

Unless we can get Matthews - there is no point getting rid of Pagan. Would you rather have Alistair Clarkson?:D

Why not keep Pagan but really try to maximise his talent. Laidley at North employed a life coach to balance his stress levels and seemed to improve dramatically. I feel Pagan could be well served with appointing somone similar.
 

HBF

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#13
pumped said:
Why not keep Pagan but really try to maximise his talent. Laidley at North employed a life coach to balance his stress levels and seemed to improve dramatically. I feel Pagan could be well served with appointing somone similar.
Denis has been in the coaching business for long enough and he should know how to balance out his footy life with his personal life - remember, he does have his horses afterall.
 

Chezza

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#15
Not sure about the whole thing - coaches can say whatever they like to the media and paint a nice picture of themselves, but you wonder how much of that positivity is extended to the players. I think coaches have to be good people managers these days and not just someone who know a bit about the game or used to be able to play a bit. Maybe he is not so great on a personal level. I guess unless any of us could get behind closed doors we'll never know.
I don't have any real allegience to a particular club, but I remember hearing a lot about Ken Judge as a coach. He coached WCE to something like 5 wins a few years back and I read it was due to a poor list. The very next year, 2002 I think, same guys running out every week and they played finals under Worsfold. I think the coaching staff seem to have a massive bearing on performances. Younger guys with more recent playing experience (Worsfold, Roos, Thompson) seems to get the best out of their players. Roos especially.

Anyway, as I said it's hard to know from the outside but I'd give anything to be a fly on the wall at a footy club to find out....
 

audas

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#16
Chezza said:
Not sure about the whole thing - coaches can say whatever they like to the media and paint a nice picture of themselves, but you wonder how much of that positivity is extended to the players. I think coaches have to be good people managers these days and not just someone who know a bit about the game or used to be able to play a bit. Maybe he is not so great on a personal level. I guess unless any of us could get behind closed doors we'll never know.
I don't have any real allegience to a particular club, but I remember hearing a lot about Ken Judge as a coach. He coached WCE to something like 5 wins a few years back and I read it was due to a poor list. The very next year, 2002 I think, same guys running out every week and they played finals under Worsfold. I think the coaching staff seem to have a massive bearing on performances. Younger guys with more recent playing experience (Worsfold, Roos, Thompson) seems to get the best out of their players. Roos especially.

Anyway, as I said it's hard to know from the outside but I'd give anything to be a fly on the wall at a footy club to find out....
Not sure what your point here is. Carlton finished last (last year) and will play finals this year.
 

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#17
My point is that it is hard to make judgement on coaches/players and gameplans when none of us have any idea what goes on behind closed doors. Someone earlier said no other coach could do better than Denis Pagan has done with Carlton. But who is to say? Maybe they could? (I apologise for not knowing how to put others quotes in, i'm new to this)

Not sure how this is going to come across but I just think there seems to be a lot of people (not just on this board) that seem to know everything that goes on at footy clubs. Where do they get their info from?

I reckon we argue a lot sometimes about things we don't know. Am I being too harsh???
 

audas

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#18
Chezza said:
My point is that it is hard to make judgement on coaches/players and gameplans when none of us have any idea what goes on behind closed doors. Someone earlier said no other coach could do better than Denis Pagan has done with Carlton. But who is to say? Maybe they could? (I apologise for not knowing how to put others quotes in, i'm new to this)

Not sure how this is going to come across but I just think there seems to be a lot of people (not just on this board) that seem to know everything that goes on at footy clubs. Where do they get their info from?

I reckon we argue a lot sometimes about things we don't know. Am I being too harsh???
I was being a smart alec and insinuating that the blues were going to win the flag this year. Yes you are right about the closed door thinggy. We all want to know who mojo31 is. Some say he is a figment of our imagination. Fireman dosent think so.
 
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