Time to talk the "R" word yet?

TheLeftFist8

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I'm really concerned about our 25 and unders. Hopefully we have some diamonds in our host of untrieds because if we don't, it will take 5 years of good trading to plug our gaps. I'm feeling abit nervous about our 2016 and 2017 drafts.
The Gallucci pick is hurting big time, plus the Gibbs trade has backfired spectacularly. Other than that, our recruiting has been pretty good for the picks we've had.
 

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Peter J

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Hawthorn recruited Mitchell and O’Meara, they didn’t do it with picks 20+

Geelong recruited Danger and still have Hawkins and Selwood, the only star from a draft pick is Kelly

Which team replaced their stars with players drafted 10+ and didn’t skip a beat?
Sure they’ve balanced their recruitment between drafting and trading. You obviously have to use both.

And it can’t be said they haven’t skipped a beat. Geelong have missed finals and Hawks will likely miss this year.

But they’ve remained relevant whilst rebuilding. We can say we’ve remained relevant, but we’ve done that in a misguided belief we are challenging
 

TheLeftFist8

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Sadly there's no winner in the midfield vs forwards argument, or specifically the Tex v Sloane argument.

The midfield is definitely at huge fault, is currently inadequate but I have zero faith in Pyke/Campo to fix it even though we have the players on the list to make it way better than it currently is.

Equally, Tex is past it when it comes to competing against high level opponents. It's not all about poor delivery. He finally looked good again a couple weeks ago but an elbow knock ruined that glimmer of hope.
 

Peter J

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Sadly there's no winner in the midfield vs forwards argument, or specifically the Tex v Sloane argument.

The midfield is definitely at huge fault, is currently inadequate but I have zero faith in Pyke/Campo to fix it even though we have the players on the list to make it way better than it currently is.

Equally, Tex is past it when it comes to competing against high level opponents. It's not all about poor delivery. He finally looked good again a couple weeks ago but an elbow knock ruined that glimmer of hope.
Without derailing another thread, Tex can at least point to his record this year as being more than serviceable.

Against AFL players ranks:

10 for marks I50
17 for goals
17 for contested marks
21 for goal assists

They’re not elite numbers by any stretch and it’s true that he’s obviously getting on. He needs to be transitioned like many of our core.

However he’s a long way from out worst, his numbers stack up, he commands selection. Especially when we have games of 13 I50’s in a half
 

kulak

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Sure they’ve balanced their recruitment between drafting and trading. You obviously have to use both.

And it can’t be said they haven’t skipped a beat. Geelong have missed finals and Hawks will likely miss this year.

But they’ve remained relevant whilst rebuilding. We can say we’ve remained relevant, but we’ve done that in a misguided belief we are challenging
They remained relevant while rebuilding because they traded in players like Danger, Mitchell and O’Meara

Not because they had drafted a series of star kids from picks 10+ and the only thing those players needed was “trust”

If we trade Grundy for pick 2+, that would go a long way to helping us stay competitive, do you think that is the correct approach?
 

kulak

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Without derailing another thread, Tex can at least point to his record this year as being more than serviceable.

Against AFL players ranks:

10 for marks I50
17 for goals
17 for contested marks
21 for goal assists

They’re not elite numbers by any stretch and it’s true that he’s obviously getting on. He needs to be transitioned like many of our core.

However he’s a long way from out worst, his numbers stack up, he commands selection. Especially when we have games of 13 I50’s in a half
There wouldn’t be too many genuine contenders whose best key forward has numbers like those

I wouldn’t be dropping Tex, but at the same time this isn’t the type of consistent quality we got in 16-17 and which we needed from him this year to be top 4
 

Mike Smyth

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They remained relevant while rebuilding because they traded in players like Danger, Mitchell and O’Meara

Not because they had drafted a series of star kids from picks 10+ and the only thing those players needed was “trust”

If we trade Grundy for pick 2+, that would go a long way to helping us stay competitive, do you think that is the correct approach?
No. I would prefer to use the Grundy picks on building a side that could compete for a flag in 5 years rather than a team who will remain competitive but never really be in the race.
 

Peter J

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They remained relevant while rebuilding because they traded in players like Danger, Mitchell and O’Meara

Not because they had drafted a series of star kids from picks 10+ and the only thing those players needed was “trust”

If we trade Grundy for pick 2+, that would go a long way to helping us stay competitive, do you think that is the correct approach?
Do you think we’ve shown the same faith in Chayce Jones as Geelong have had in Jordan Clark. He’s not even a top 10 pick.

What about Port with Butters/Duursma? Not top 10 picks either.

I’m sure I could find many other examples
 

TheLeftFist8

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I’d love to know Tex’ percentage of contests won/lost. His stats should be good as he directs the forward line and much of our play funnels through him. But at what cost?

Watching him it feels like he’s often playing from behind (the goal he got after half time was very fortunate as he was trailing Clurey, the first one was a bit flukey also but well done on getting to the position), doesn’t present often enough to give a target for bail out kick between 50 and wing, absolutely not desperate enough in aerial contests often putting a meek one arm up, and lets his opponents waltz out of defence with ridiculous ease.

To me, he’s definitely a net liability these days as a key forward.

We need to restructure our forward line. His future value would only be as an opportunist deep forward pocket but unfortunately his defensive efforts would still leave us exposed on the rebound.


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GreyCrow

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Peter J said:
But they’ve remained relevant whilst rebuilding. We can say we’ve remained relevant, but we’ve done that in a misguided belief we are challenging
I think this is a very good point. At no time in the last 12 years have you been able to say Hawthorn and Geelong* haven't remained relevant and yet still able to manage expectations

This if course is easier to do from a position that has recent flags behind it

* I thought this year was the 1 year Geelong mismanaged a transition
 

marty36

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I’d love to know Tex’ percentage of contests won/lost. His stats should be good as he directs the forward line and much of our play funnels through him. But at what cost?

Watching him it feels like he’s often playing from behind (the goal he got after half time was very fortunate as he was trailing Clurey, the first one was a bit flukey also but well done on getting to the position), doesn’t present often enough to give a target for bail out kick between 50 and wing, absolutely not desperate enough in aerial contests often putting a meek one arm up, and lets his opponents waltz out of defence with ridiculous ease.

To me, he’s definitely a net liability these days as a key forward.

We need to restructure our forward line. His future value would only be as an opportunist deep forward pocket but unfortunately his defensive efforts would still leave us exposed on the rebound.


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Bloody expensive opportunist we definitely couldn't afford guns in the salary cap if your paying that to a fringe player

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kulak

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Do you think we’ve shown the same faith in Chayce Jones as Geelong have had in Jordan Clark. He’s not even a top 10 pick.

What about Port with Butters/Duursma? Not top 10 picks either.

I’m sure I could find many other examples
Geelong and Port have their kids in peripheral roles at AFL level - half forward, half back.

We have our kids in key roles at SANFL level - inside midfield, key forward.

Which approach will prove best? TBC.

Geelong played Parsons for most of a season a year or two ago and it didn’t make him a different player than he fundamentally is; Miers played VFL for a season then came in this year and is doing great. I’m sure there are examples both ways.

I do think that if Geelong had Danger and Hawkins injured/retired/dropped, and played Clark and Rutogolea in their place, they would not be in first place on the ladder which is my main point.
 

hey shorty

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Do you think we’ve shown the same faith in Chayce Jones as Geelong have had in Jordan Clark. He’s not even a top 10 pick.

What about Port with Butters/Duursma? Not top 10 picks either.

I’m sure I could find many other examples
Geelong and Sydney have tended to leave their kids in the 2s to develop, but generally pick 1 to go with all season.

It's an interesting debate though, what Port have done has clearly worked in this instance and you could argue what Geelong and Sydney do works also.
 

Bicks

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Do you think we’ve shown the same faith in Chayce Jones as Geelong have had in Jordan Clark. He’s not even a top 10 pick.

What about Port with Butters/Duursma? Not top 10 picks either.

I’m sure I could find many other examples
In all reality all 3 players you've named have handled the transition to AFL better than Chayce has currently, Duursma was drafted off playing mostly outside midfield/half back for Gippsland Power, Zak Butters was drafted off of his forward role with short stints as an outside mid for the Western Jets and Jordan Clark was drafted off his exceptional work across half back for WA at the Championships and his late season including finals form also down back for Claremont in the WAFL.

Chayce was drafted off his good Championships and good form in the TFL for Launy both playing as a inside/outside midfielder, unfortunately for him we've played him in small forward role at AFL mainly which obviously is not really his go. Does his SANFL form warrant a permanent role in our midfield rotations at this point?

I really rate Chayce but for me he's a midfielder not a small forward and that's a much harder spot for a 1st year player to shine in or get AFL opportunities in than the roles the 3 aforementioned players are currently playing.

Connor Rozee without a shadow of doubt will play midfield in the future but let's face it he's made a much better fist of his AFL opportunities up forward than Chayce has as have the other 3 in the roles they are playing.
 

Peter J

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In all reality all 3 players you've named have handled the transition to AFL better than Chayce has currently, Duursma was drafted off playing mostly outside midfield/half back for Gippsland Power, Zak Butters was drafted off of his forward role with short stints as an outside mid for the Western Jets and Jordan Clark was drafted off his exceptional work across half back for WA at the Championships and his late season including finals form also down back for Claremont in the WAFL.

Chayce was drafted off his good Championships and good form in the TFL for Launy both playing as a inside/outside midfielder, unfortunately for him we've played him in small forward role at AFL mainly which obviously is not really his go. Does his SANFL form warrant a permanent role in our midfield rotations at this point?

I really rate Chayce but for me he's a midfielder not a small forward and that's a much harder spot for a 1st year player to shine in or get AFL opportunities in than the roles the 3 aforementioned players are currently playing.

Connor Rozee without a shadow of doubt will play midfield in the future but let's face it he's made a much better fist of his AFL opportunities up forward than Chayce has as have the other 3 in the roles they are playing.
All fair comment Bicks but you strike at the very heart of this issue.

Jones wasn’t played in his natural position, given a peripheral role only. Yet he was an elite mid in Tassy last year against men.

And yes I believe he has earned a go at the midfield via his form in the 2’s. Quiet last week but otherwise he’s been a strong performer.

Play him and don’t play him out of position, play him in the midfield
 

Bicks

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All fair comment Bicks but you strike at the very heart of this issue.

Jones wasn’t played in his natural position, given a peripheral role only. Yet he was an elite mid in Tassy last year against men.

And yes I believe he has earned a go at the midfield via his form in the 2’s. Quiet last week but otherwise he’s been a strong performer.

Play him and don’t play him out of position, play him in the midfield
No argument from me, just pointing out the other 3 player you mentioned have been playing roles they're very familiar with and "easier" spots to do well in as opposed to the midfield.
 

marty36

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All fair comment Bicks but you strike at the very heart of this issue.

Jones wasn’t played in his natural position, given a peripheral role only. Yet he was an elite mid in Tassy last year against men.

And yes I believe he has earned a go at the midfield via his form in the 2’s. Quiet last week but otherwise he’s been a strong performer.

Play him and don’t play him out of position, play him in the midfield
Who we pulling out Rory Brad or Matt
 

Crow till I die

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So if we can bring in Anderson (assuming the AFL don't give a PP to GC) and then pick up another good kid with the carlton 2nd, next year we could look to youth..Jones, Fogarty, Himmelberg, Anderson, McHenry, Stengle, Doedee and then hope that McAdam, Butts, Hamill and a few others are pushing hard..The forward line could almost be totally revamped to look like

Himmelberg Walker Stengle
Sloane Fogarty McHenry

Add Anderson and Jones straight up to the main midfield mix with Matt & Brad Crouch and sure, we will need time, but I think that that looks a much more youthful and to me exciting group than what we currently have now
 
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