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Tivs.

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i think we need to give Lids a bit of breathing space, allow him time to grow as a player. Sure, he is exciting, but he will stuff it up. He's only a kid after all.

Can't extend the same liberty to Tivva. He should have been axed long ago.

As for Joel, he does cough it up a bit, and he is a bit soft at the contest, but we did get some value from him last year in the backline.

Gaspar is the one who continually lets us down. He is a mature footballer and should be showing more leadership down back.
 
Paddles said:
i think we need to give Lids a bit of breathing space, allow him time to grow as a player. Sure, he is exciting, but he will stuff it up. He's only a kid after all.

Can't extend the same liberty to Tivva. He should have been axed long ago.

As for Joel, he does cough it up a bit, and he is a bit soft at the contest, but we did get some value from him last year in the backline.

Gaspar is the one who continually lets us down. He is a mature footballer and should be showing more leadership down back.
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Agree Deledio is young and still learning the game. Hence he will make a mistake here or there. Tivendale is meant to be a Senior player and is meant toshow the way to our young kids. Which he does not do he continues week in and week out to disappoint. Would tivendale get a game at another afl club no. So why is he getting a game with us :(
 
ARES said:
Tivers had 26 possesions, 1 turnover, 1 9pointer and a 2nd 9 pointer that hit the goal post, played in my opinion the best for us along with Foley and Tuck, yet he gets caned.
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Most on this forum seem to have a multi-layered rating system.

Deledio, Tambling, Meyer automatically get 5 out of 10 for simply being young and walking onto the field. If they jog about without falling over they score a 6. If they do anything at all - well that is an automatic 8/10 at least.

In contrast Tivendale, Gaspar, Johnson, Hall etc are marked to a higher standard. Their very best game can only ever be rated a 6. Any mistake immediately knocks them down to a 4/10.

You walk out of games like the Geelong one and Tivendale gets marked 2/10 for being our best player on the day ... and Deledio gets marked 7/10 for being promising.

Wishful thinking and player-projections are all well and good. And playing kids to develop a team for the future is important. All that has a place. But it is also important to take the blinkers off and assess players based on what they actually do.
 
Weaver, the point you make about the difference in how we mark experienced players versus inexperienced players is valid, but surely we should expect more from those who have mature bodies and who have been in the system a while.

Lids might have a backward year this year and in a kid thats probably understandable, but if Gas or Tivs don't fire up then surely it's time to give them a shove out the door.

Not to mention freeing up some cash under the salary cap!
 

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Paddles said:
Weaver, the point you make about the difference in how we mark experienced players versus inexperienced players is valid, but surely we should expect more from those who have mature bodies and who have been in the system a while.
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We should expect more of the experienced guys. That does play a part in list management.

However after that Geelong game when Tiv was our best most round 1 selections had him out of the 22. Guys like McGuane who have shown nothing are apparantly automatic inclussions.

It is fair to be dissapointed when Tiv scores a 6, when we hope he should be an 8? We did that to Wayne Campbell for a decade. He got his 7s and 8s every week but we slaughtered him because we wanted him to be our Buckley or Ricciuto and a 10/10 player.

Tivendale is a 6/10 or 7/10 player. Gaspar is a 5/10 or 6/10 player. They are performing to their talent levels.

We don't judge guys on what they actually do on the footy field. We judge them on some bizzaro sliding scale.

Pattison scores a 2 and has done well. Johnson scores a 7 and is the reason we lost a match? We win games by dumping Johnson, Tivendale, Tuck, Hall, Gaspar and all our other 6/10 types are bringing in some 3/10 kids?

Long-term there are reasons to do that. But in any discussion of an individual game we have to stop saying that we lost because the best 4 performed players on the field didn't play as well as Judd.
 
Weaver said:
We should expect more of the experienced guys. That does play a part in list management.

However after that Geelong game when Tiv was our best most round 1 selections had him out of the 22. Guys like McGuane who have shown nothing are apparantly automatic inclussions.

It is fair to be dissapointed when Tiv scores a 6, when we hope he should be an 8? We did that to Wayne Campbell for a decade. He got his 7s and 8s every week but we slaughtered him because we wanted him to be our Buckley or Ricciuto and a 10/10 player.

Tivendale is a 6/10 or 7/10 player. Gaspar is a 5/10 or 6/10 player. They are performing to their talent levels.

We don't judge guys on what they actually do on the footy field. We judge them on some bizzaro sliding scale.

Pattison scores a 2 and has done well. Johnson scores a 7 and is the reason we lost a match? We win games by dumping Johnson, Tivendale, Tuck, Hall, Gaspar and all our other 6/10 types are bringing in some 3/10 kids?

Long-term there are reasons to do that. But in any discussion of an individual game we have to stop saying that we lost because the best 4 performed players on the field didn't play as well as Judd.
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I don't get your 0-10 thing. I guess when we lose we try and point the finger. I suppose across the board for the last couple of decades we just haven't been good enough.
 
Paddles said:
I don't get your 0-10 thing. I guess when we lose we try and point the finger. I suppose across the board for the last couple of decades we just haven't been good enough.
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If you gave players a rating out of 10 after an indivual match.

In that Geelong NAB game Tivendale might have been a 7.
Hughes might have been a 0.

In that individual match saying we lost because Tivendale wasn't better is nonsense.

It is fine to expect Hughes to be a 0. It is fine to expect Tivendale to be an 8. Expectations don't matter.

We lose games because we get next to nothing from half our team. And in most cases that is because we are relying on kids who aren't ready.

It is just lazy to expect Johnson to do the job of 4 blokes and then condemn him because he plays a very solid job which the Swans would have been happy with.
 
hey weaver wtf is wrong with ya mate

who cares about the geelong game im talking overral as a player tivenfail is a HACK!
 
Calcium Man said:
Yet he is still in our best 22. That is major problem for us. No one else is jumping up and saying give me his spot.
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Didn't he play some amazing amount of consecutive games for us? Like 150 or something.

it's not his fault, he turns up and trains and gets picked and he plays.

But the fact that he is in our best 22 is pretty damning.
 
I remember in his first couple of seasons, I used to call him SKILLS. I used to tell my mates he will be a star, "the next Matty Knights".:D
 
Cleishy said:
I remember in his first couple of seasons, I used to call him SKILLS. I used to tell my mates he will be a star, "the next Matty Knights".:D
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:) WEREN'T far off the mark in one regard.....no RIGHT FOOT! Actually, Tiva has Knighta covered for a right foot!!! Matty was te worse right foot kick in the modern era!!!

But loved the guy!

Was ready to jump the fence the day that dog Libba belted him at the G!
 
Goldust said:
:) WEREN'T far off the mark in one regard.....no RIGHT FOOT! Actually, Tiva has Knighta covered for a right foot!!! Matty was te worse right foot kick in the modern era!!!

But loved the guy!

Was ready to jump the fence the day that dog Libba belted him at the G!
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And these days we all want to jump the fence to belt Tivva!
 

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PLSC said:
hey weaver wtf is wrong with ya mate

who cares about the geelong game im talking overral as a player tivenfail is a HACK!
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Weaver gives a very intelligent and sensible analysis of this tiresome issue. PLSC then demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.

Some people get it, and some people never will. Common sense is in short supply.
 
tigirlpower said:
Weaver gives a very intelligent and sensible analysis of this tiresome issue. PLSC then demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.

Some people get it, and some people never will. Common sense is in short supply.
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Spot on:thumbsu:

Good analysis by Weaver, typical gibberish from PLSC
 
Calcium Man said:
Yet he is still in our best 22. That is major problem for us. No one else is jumping up and saying give me his spot.
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Yeah how is he in our starting 22? I have been wondering that for awhile. Surely we can replace him with someone else that wants to play and that is apart of our future.
 
watching Tivva on the weekend was like watching border collies hearding sheep into a pen. The way Melbourne hearded Tivva onto his right foot time and time again (leading Tivva to cough it up with a shocking disposal) was uncanny.
 
heartbroken said:
watching Tivva on the weekend was like watching border collies hearding sheep into a pen. The way Melbourne hearded Tivva onto his right foot time and time again (leading Tivva to cough it up with a shocking disposal) was uncanny.
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Could not agree more. So sooner we delist him the better it will be for all :)
 

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ARES said:
Spot on:thumbsu:

Good analysis by Weaver, typical gibberish from PLSC
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analysis, gibberish or FLUFF!

just because weaver makes it sound so sexy doesnt mean he has any idea of what the hell is going on

tivendale is crap but will still get games which means richmond is crap

thread.
 
Weaver said:
Most on this forum seem to have a multi-layered rating system.

Deledio, Tambling, Meyer automatically get 5 out of 10 for simply being young and walking onto the field. If they jog about without falling over they score a 6. If they do anything at all - well that is an automatic 8/10 at least.

In contrast Tivendale, Gaspar, Johnson, Hall etc are marked to a higher standard. Their very best game can only ever be rated a 6. Any mistake immediately knocks them down to a 4/10.

You walk out of games like the Geelong one and Tivendale gets marked 2/10 for being our best player on the day ... and Deledio gets marked 7/10 for being promising.

Wishful thinking and player-projections are all well and good. And playing kids to develop a team for the future is important. All that has a place. But it is also important to take the blinkers off and assess players based on what they actually do.
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We've had plenty of time to assess Gaspar, Tivendale and Johnson. How many finals games have we played in during their careers?
 
1980 said:
We've had plenty of time to assess Gaspar, Tivendale and Johnson. How many finals games have we played in during their careers?
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Not many. Gaspet pfft he dropped the most easy mark possible at training yesturday. Then he had a shot at goal 15min out missed to the near side. I wont miss him to much or tivendale when they both finally go. A few years to late.
 

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