To all you CC Knockers

[Ripper]

Therefore, to this point in season 2005 (which may change with half a season left), I believe the problem at Fremantle lies with the coach.

Yep. just like at Brisbane , Collingwood & Port.

 

[dasler]

Yep. just like at Brisbane , Collingwood & Port.

Interesting how you can manoeuvre a topic directed at your club's plight to include that of others Ripper. Beating around the bush once again.

 

[Ripper]

Interesting how you can manoeuvre a topic directed at your club's plight to include that of others Ripper. Beating around the bush once again.

Go through and appy your criteria to the clubs I mentioned and see if you come up with the same conclusions about them.

I await with interest.

 

[Mr Q]

Just look at Imperials Stats that comes with his posts. You are a WCE supporter, what do you know??

Well I know that CC's win-loss record is 50%. 39 wins from 78 games exactly. Go check it out if you want.

As an Eagles supporter I know that Worsfold has a better win-loss ratio - 57.5% (not including draws), 46 from 80 games. Fairly sure that Sheedy, and Pagan have better than 50% records, suspect Malthouse does, Paul Roos certainly does, hell Neil Craig even does.

But hey, don't believe me if you don't want to.

 

[big buddy38]

Leaving Pagan aside (he inherited a wooden spoon team which was also neutered for several drafts to come because of salary cap cheating), the other coaches CC is compared with (other coaches who have started with wooden spooners) have led their teams to significant efforts in finals series - Malthouse 2 GFs; Thomas - top 4 finish and prelim appearance; Daniher - GF and 3 others finals series; Matthews - u know the rest.
If CC can't get Freo to finish well in 2005, then he may have run out of time. The gap between Freo's best and worst performances is the big worry for him.

 

[Mead]

I am a realist. You go though our best 22 vs WCE's best 22 position for position and compare games played and you will get a huge surprise.


To build a team for a shot at the flag (and that is the only thing thing that will get us respect) you need 28+ AFL ready players. We are only just starting to get that.

Nothing soft about it . I want them to have the time to "do it once and do it right".

Okay, lets look at the teams that played last weekend.

B: Banfield (237) Glass (82) Nicoski (18)
HB:Chick (196) Hunter (74) Jones (19)
C:Fletcher (109) Cousins (195) Embley (102)
HF:Staker (32) Hansen (17) Edwards (1)
F:Matera (169) Lynch (44) Seaby (22)
R:Cox (89) Judd (78) Kerr (92)
Int: Braun (148) Lecras (2) Selwood (12) Butler (22)
1760 total games.

B: Webster (16) Parker (195) Thornton (26)
HB:Mundy (6) Polak (55) Grover (83)
C: Black (134) Carr (116) Schofield (197)
HF:Johnson (6) Pavlich (117) Murphy (7)
F: Medhurst (76) Longmuir (110) Farmer (191)
R: Sandilands (47) Bell (221) Hasleby (119)
Int: Dodd (8) McManus (173) Cook (158) Crowley (2)
2063 total games.

Hugely surprising So other than the fact that Connolly had an extra 300 odd games of experience to work with when dishing up that embarassing capitulation to Brisbane, did you have a point?

 

[Ripper]

Okay, lets look at the teams that played last weekend.

B: Banfield (237) Glass (82) Nicoski (18)
HB:Chick (196) Hunter (74) Jones (19)
C:Fletcher (109) Cousins (195) Embley (102)
HF:Staker (32) Hansen (17) Edwards (1)
F:Matera (169) Lynch (44) Seaby (22)
R:Cox (89) Judd (78) Kerr (92)
Int: Braun (148) Lecras (2) Selwood (12) Butler (22)
1760 total games.

B: Webster (16) Parker (195) Thornton (26)
HB:Mundy (6) Polak (55) Grover (83)
C: Black (134) Carr (116) Schofield (197)
HF:Johnson (6) Pavlich (117) Murphy (7)
F: Medhurst (76) Longmuir (110) Farmer (191)
R: Sandilands (47) Bell (221) Hasleby (119)
Int: Dodd (8) McManus (173) Cook (158) Crowley (2)
2063 total games.

Hugely surprising So other than the fact that Connolly had an extra 300 odd games of experience to work with when dishing up that embarassing capitulation to Brisbane, did you have a point?

Thanks Mead, you have backed up my point again. The fact that some of those blokes have so many games highlight our lack of debth.

Lets go through a couple of key positions

FB Parker is playing OOP as Haddrill is injured
Haddrill (promoted rookie debut 2001)Age 24yr 5 months 56 games.
Glass (Pick 11 debut 2000) Age 24 years 1 month 82 games

How would WCE be going if Glass was on 56 games (he had that in 2003) and it is recognised that he only "came good" midway through 2004.

CHB
Polak (pick 4 2001 debut 2001) Age 20 yrs 11 months Games 55
Hunter (pick 29 1999 )Age 23 years 11 months Games 74

Again Hunter has 2 years more in the system and has only just come good.

 

[Mead]

Thanks Mead, you have backed up my point again. The fact that some of those blokes have so many games highlight our lack of debth.

Lets go through a couple of key positions

FB Parker is playing OOP as Haddrill is injured
Haddrill (promoted rookie debut 2001)Age 24yr 5 months 56 games.
Glass (Pick 11 debut 2000) Age 24 years 1 month 82 games

How would WCE be going if Glass was on 56 games (he had that in 2003) and it is recognised that he only "came good" midway through 2004.

CHB
Polak (pick 4 2001 debut 2001) Age 20 yrs 11 months Games 55
Hunter (pick 29 1999 )Age 23 years 11 months Games 74

Again Hunter has 2 years more in the system and has only just come good.

Well obviously, the fact that some of the blokes have so many games highlight the lack of kpp depth Worsfold has at his disposal

You need to make up your mind, are your guys too young or too old? Seriously, you're getting into some very very limp excuses here.

 

[Mr Q]

FB Parker is playing OOP as Haddrill is injured
Haddrill (promoted rookie debut 2001)Age 24yr 5 months 56 games.
Glass (Pick 11 debut 2000) Age 24 years 1 month 82 games

CHB
Polak (pick 4 2001 debut 2001) Age 20 yrs 11 months Games 55
Hunter (pick 29 1999 )Age 23 years 11 months Games 74

OK, so we've got more experienced backmen (lets bypass the fact we're playing a short CHB).

We could also look at the forwards though:
CHF
Pavlich (Pick 4 1999, debut 2002) Age 23 yrs 5 months, Games 117
Hansen (Pick 38 2001, debut 2004) Age 22yrs 2 months, Games 17
100 games more experience and two years longer in the system

FF
Longmuir (Pick 2 1998, debut 1999) Age 24 yrs 4 months, Games 110
(McPharlin Pick 10 1999, debut 2000, Age 23 yrs 6 months, Games 61)
Lynch (Rookie, debut 2001) Age 22 yrs 4 months, games 44
Again, two years longer in the game, and twice as many games.

You can't use backmen as an example of how much more development time we've had without equally using the forwards as an example of where you've had more development time.

Seriously Rip, Freo and West Coast were at the bottom at the same time - 2001 - and started the redevelopment process at about the same time. You weren't 1-2 years behind us at the end of 2001, so if you are now then you've got to take a long, hard look at why.

 

[sabre_ac]

Okay, lets look at the teams that played last weekend.

B: Banfield (237) Glass (82) Nicoski (18)
HB:Chick (196) Hunter (74) Jones (19)
C:Fletcher (109) Cousins (195) Embley (102)
HF:Staker (32) Hansen (17) Edwards (1)
F:Matera (169) Lynch (44) Seaby (22)
R:Cox (89) Judd (78) Kerr (92)
Int: Braun (148) Lecras (2) Selwood (12) Butler (22)
1760 total games.

B: Webster (16) Parker (195) Thornton (26)
HB:Mundy (6) Polak (55) Grover (83)
C: Black (134) Carr (116) Schofield (197)
HF:Johnson (6) Pavlich (117) Murphy (7)
F: Medhurst (76) Longmuir (110) Farmer (191)
R: Sandilands (47) Bell (221) Hasleby (119)
Int: Dodd (8) McManus (173) Cook (158) Crowley (2)
2063 total games.

Hugely surprising So other than the fact that Connolly had an extra 300 odd games of experience to work with when dishing up that embarassing capitulation to Brisbane, did you have a point?

Ah mead you never fail to disapoint....
Experience of players is never as important as quality of players.

Remove your entire backline...you may keep either chick or banfield
Remove lynch
Remove Embly
And then your losses match what freo is missing.

Though freo a very much oreintated about their marking options where as eagles are midfield.

So with that in mind.
Without Mcpharlin, Haddrill, Polak...Is the same as taking 3 of the eagles 4 best midfielders out of their side.
You may hang onto Judd, but Cousins,Kerr and Fletcher will not be playing.

No who would compare to Carr,Walker and Headland?
Lets see...
Chick, Staker and Braun

How would the eagles go in those senarios?
Wouldnt come close to the 8

 

[Mead]

Ah mead you never fail to disapoint....
Experience of players is never as important as quality of players.

Remove your entire backline...you may keep either chick or banfield
Remove lynch
Remove Embly
And then your losses match what freo is missing.

Though freo a very much oreintated about their marking options where as eagles are midfield.

So with that in mind.
Without Mcpharlin, Haddrill, Polak...Is the same as taking 3 of the eagles 4 best midfielders out of their side.
You may hang onto Judd, but Cousins,Kerr and Fletcher will not be playing.

No who would compare to Carr,Walker and Headland?
Lets see...
Chick, Staker and Braun

How would the eagles go in those senarios?
Wouldnt come close to the 8

I think you and Ripper are reading from different scripts, which is fine but let's just clarify - in your opinion its all those dreadful injuries you've had rather than lack of experience or too much experience or the alignment of the planets or whatever else Ripper seems to think is responsible for giving Connolly such a tough time?

See, because the thing is, I wasn't aware that all those guys had missed all of your embarassing losses this year- in fact the nasty tricksy stats sheet is suggesting to me that McPharlin, Headland, Polak, Carr, and Headland all played when you got done by Hawthorn, and when you got done by Essendon, and (+ Walker) when you got thumped by Richmond, and so on. If bad losses are acceptable if a couple of B/C grade players like Walker and Haddrill miss from your 22, then you might as well write off the next decade or so of football, because its something every team has to deal with.

Injuries happen- I'd say every single week this year we've had at least 2-3 players missing from the figurative best 22, and sometimes quite a few more. Against Richmond, we missed Gardiner, Wirrpunda, Stenglein, Sampi and Waters from our figurative best 22, and we still won.

But the reason why Freo missed the 8 last year, and why they'll miss the 8 again this year is not because they lose games like they did today- every side in the competition will go through a few weeks where you're very undermanned and taking on a decent team on their home turf, its always going to be tough to win in those situations.

The reason you're going to miss the 8 is because you fail to make hay whilst the sun shines, and drop very winnable games because the players don't feel like having a crack or melt when the pressure is put on. If you hadn't choked against St Kilda, against us, against Essendon, and totally dropped the bundle against Hawthorn and Brisbane, then an injury induced form slump now wouldn't be ending your season the way it is. If you don't take the 'easy' wins, it always hurts you down the track.

If a team consistently drops games it should win or chokes under pressure, there is a pretty clear mental problem. If that problem persists for several years, either
a.) it is caused by the coach.
or
b.) the coach is unable to fix it.

Whichever of those it is, its clear that the coach has to go if the team is ever going to be competitive.

 

[dasler]

I think you and Ripper are reading from different scripts, which is fine but let's just clarify - in your opinion its all those dreadful injuries you've had rather than lack of experience or too much experience or the alignment of the planets or whatever else Ripper seems to think is responsible for giving Connolly such a tough time?

See, because the thing is, I wasn't aware that all those guys had missed all of your embarassing losses this year- in fact the nasty tricksy stats sheet is suggesting to me that McPharlin, Headland, Polak, Carr, and Headland all played when you got done by Hawthorn, and when you got done by Essendon, and (+ Walker) when you got thumped by Richmond, and so on. If bad losses are acceptable if a couple of B/C grade players like Walker and Haddrill miss from your 22, then you might as well write off the next decade or so of football, because its something every team has to deal with.

Injuries happen- I'd say every single week this year we've had at least 2-3 players missing from the figurative best 22, and sometimes quite a few more. Against Richmond, we missed Gardiner, Wirrpunda, Stenglein, Sampi and Waters from our figurative best 22, and we still won.

But the reason why Freo missed the 8 last year, and why they'll miss the 8 again this year is not because they lose games like they did today- every side in the competition will go through a few weeks where you're very undermanned and taking on a decent team on their home turf, its always going to be tough to win in those situations.

The reason you're going to miss the 8 is because you fail to make hay whilst the sun shines, and drop very winnable games because the players don't feel like having a crack or melt when the pressure is put on. If you hadn't choked against St Kilda, against us, against Essendon, and totally dropped the bundle against Hawthorn and Brisbane, then an injury induced form slump now wouldn't be ending your season the way it is. If you don't take the 'easy' wins, it always hurts you down the track.

If a team consistently drops games it should win or chokes under pressure, there is a pretty clear mental problem. If that problem persists for several years, either
a.) it is caused by the coach.
or
b.) the coach is unable to fix it.

Whichever of those it is, its clear that the coach has to go if the team is ever going to be competitive.

Thank you mead, my sentiments exactly. Look for your reasoning to be turned towards other clubs by some Fremantle supporters to ignore the glaring fact that CC hasn't performed as had been hoped.

 

[dugrene]

Thank you mead, my sentiments exactly.

Now why dont you two girls go somewhere else for your love in.

 

[jarman]

There's 2 debatable issues other than the rhetoric of injuries etc affecting team performance namely

- the coach, and
- the team

You can look at it from a range perspectives, which I believe fall into 4 categories

1. The team is talented and coached poorly,
2. The team is talented and coached well,
3. The team is not talented and coached well, and
4. The team is not talented and not coached well.

For obvious reasonings due to season 2004 and to date season 2005 performances, option 2 can be ruled out immediately. The performance of Fremantle in season 2003 rules out option 4, therefore leaving options 1 and 3.

Looking at Fremantle's side, I believe they are extremely talented when you go through the list, however in another post elsewhere, I have dissected the complete playing list into several categories and it reveals a number of glaring under-performers and lack of out and out superstar matchwinners. However, that does not mean the team is not talented, quite the opposite if Fremantle can improve 5-10% on their current performance. That dismisses option 3.

Based on that, option 1 is the remainder. Fremantle has a talented list meaning there must be something wrong with the coach. He isn't doing something correctly, whether it be match planning, game day strategy or a failure to communicate and motivate his players. If CC, is such a brilliant football mind as you have quoted others as saying, then with the list at his disposal, Fremantle would be performing at a higher level on a more consistent basis. The buck stops with the players gameday, but the message and drilling comes from the coach.

Therefore, to this point in season 2005 (which may change with half a season left), I believe the problem at Fremantle lies with the coach.

Dassler fully agree - The team is talented and coached poorly.
Why don't people wake up. CC has been there for 3.5 years and we are still an inconsistent, poor team, going nowhere. Nothing will change while he is coach.

My view is get rid of him now.

 

[sabre_ac]

I think you and Ripper are reading from different scripts, which is fine but let's just clarify - in your opinion its all those dreadful injuries you've had rather than lack of experience or too much experience or the alignment of the planets or whatever else Ripper seems to think is responsible for giving Connolly such a tough time?

I have been on Conolly's case for much of this year, but to his defence hes rarely if ever had his full team out on the track.

See, because the thing is, I wasn't aware that all those guys had missed all of your embarassing losses this year- in fact the nasty tricksy stats sheet is suggesting to me that McPharlin, Headland, Polak, Carr, and Headland all played when you got done by Hawthorn, and when you got done by Essendon, and (+ Walker) when you got thumped by Richmond, and so on. If bad losses are acceptable if a couple of B/C grade players like Walker and Haddrill miss from your 22, then you might as well write off the next decade or so of football, because its something every team has to deal with.

I agree with you the losses against Essendon,Hawthorn and Richmond were unaccaptable.
Though again Hadrill would have made a hudge difference, but non the less unaccaptable

.

Injuries happen- I'd say every single week this year we've had at least 2-3 players missing from the figurative best 22, and sometimes quite a few more. Against Richmond, we missed Gardiner, Wirrpunda, Stenglein, Sampi and Waters from our figurative best 22, and we still won.

Exactly Injuries happen.
But the loss of Gardiner,Wirrpunda,Stenglein and sampi in the scheme of things isnt in the same league as the loss of McpHarlin,Polak,Carr,Headland and Hadrill to name a few to freo.

As far as how good the eagles are??
Well my opinion is and always has been you success lives and dies by your midfield as your backline/forward line wouldnt be top 8 if the eagles midfield wasnt so strong, but again this is a discussion for another board.

The reason you're going to miss the 8 is because you fail to make hay whilst the sun shines, and drop very winnable games because the players don't feel like having a crack or melt when the pressure is put on. If you hadn't choked against St Kilda, against us, against Essendon, and totally dropped the bundle against Hawthorn and Brisbane, then an injury induced form slump now wouldn't be ending your season the way it is. If you don't take the 'easy' wins, it always hurts you down the track.

Agree entirely with you here, said it all season on song we can match and beat the best.
Is the fact we cant do it constnatly because of Conolly?? Perhaps, but right now no.

In the end Mead my problem with your post was how you almost bragged about how good you side is considering their experience level.
I merely pointed out overall experience level has very little to do with a teams output, if the majority of the contribution comes from the more experienced or the star players.

 

[mikben]

All you CC knockers have not got a clue. He is the best coach in the business and just look at his track record. He is a very successful coach.

- Taken wooden spooners to their first top 8 finishes ever.
- Has a better win/loss record than any other coach except Lee Mathews.
- Has the team nicely poised to make the top four in the second half of the season and a possible first GF appearance?
- Although there have been a lot of injuries he has built the squad to have real depth for the first time ever.
- Regarded by Dermot Brereton as the best development coaches in the game.
- Regarded by Dennis Commetti as one of the best football minds in the game.

Football is changing and now becoming more like a chess game. CC is leading the way and his recruiting has will pay dividends very shortly.

Give him the respect and credit he deserves. He should have his contract extended to 2010 as a minimum and he is a country mile in front of any of the others. This includes Pagan, Sheedy, Washfold, Willams etc etc

Freo will beat Swans this weekend and be on track for that GF.

Mate you need to go on a journey, what a joke....................

 

[purp_bling]

Fellas, get a grip.

Sure, stick the boots into the Egirl supporters and have some fun in these dark times - but wake up and have a look at what is really happening. Our season is slipping down the drain, again, and the problem is as described by Mead:

- either with the coach, or
- beyond his ability to repair.

Denying this and accepting these "admirable losses" is dillusional.

We were in the same place as the Scum at the end of 2001, the "journeys" since then have been markedly different. We always try to convince ourselves that it will all turn around, some kid will become a superstar and that it will all turn out alright. And then blame injuries, feng shui, the moon and the stars, etc. if it doesn't. The problem is much closer to home - and we just re-signed him for more!

 

[mathew20]

All you CC knockers have not got a clue. He is the best coach in the business and just look at his track record. He is a very successful coach.

- Taken wooden spooners to their first top 8 finishes ever.
- Has a better win/loss record than any other coach except Lee Mathews.
- Has the team nicely poised to make the top four in the second half of the season and a possible first GF appearance?
- Although there have been a lot of injuries he has built the squad to have real depth for the first time ever.
- Regarded by Dermot Brereton as the best development coaches in the game.
- Regarded by Dennis Commetti as one of the best football minds in the game.

Football is changing and now becoming more like a chess game. CC is leading the way and his recruiting has will pay dividends very shortly.

Give him the respect and credit he deserves. He should have his contract extended to 2010 as a minimum and he is a country mile in front of any of the others. This includes Pagan, Sheedy, Washfold, Willams etc etc

Freo will beat Swans this weekend and be on track for that GF.

you have to be kidding will it take you till 2010 to see the light

 

[kidstyler]

are people actualy saying that they are happy being 12th?!

 

[Ripper]

are people actualy saying that they are happy being 12th?!

Not to my knowledge, I am not happy being 12th. But as I am unable to get the magic wand to work and get our "A" team back on the park I just have to grin and bear it.

Mind you, I am grinning at what Mundy , Murphy , Crowley & M.J. have shown so far but they are still works in progress.

Its all very well to be brave about injuries but does anyone seriously think that at this stage of our evolution that we lose nothing with 6 & 7 gamers in instead of players of the calibre of Macpharlan , Haddrill , Walker , Hayden , M. Carr etc?

I have seen Melbourne & Geelong go up and down like a YoYo , WCE go well and then fall in a hole , Collingwood go from a GF to bottom 4 and there is one common theme, They have had key players injured.

 

[Dutchey]

No one had more injuries last year than Port, where did they finish ?

The worst year our club had with injuries was in '97 , when we struggled to get 17 fit players on the ground, yet we fell one game short of the finals. The worst part about all thos injuries were that they were our only key players who were out.

Forget your petty excuses about injuries.

Footnote; this time last year we were 7 from 12 and failed to make the finals. This year it's 5 from 12, are you serious about the side actually making the 8 this year ?

 

[Dwayo]

No one had more injuries last year than Port, where did they finish ?

The worst year our club had with injuries was in '97 , when we struggled to get 17 fit players on the ground, yet we fell one game short of the finals. The worst part about all thos injuries were that they were our only key players who were out.

Forget your petty excuses about injuries.

Footnote; this time last year we were 7 from 12 and failed to make the finals. This year it's 5 from 12, are you serious about the side actually making the 8 this year ?

Yes, I am serious. We are a game out of the top 8 with ten more games to go (that's 40 points still up for grabs). We beat North this weekend and we are back in the hunt.

I still have total faith in CC getting us to the finals and for the first time ever we make a good showing.

 

[Ripper]

No one had more injuries last year than Port, where did they finish ?

The worst year our club had with injuries was in '97 , when we struggled to get 17 fit players on the ground, yet we fell one game short of the finals. The worst part about all thos injuries were that they were our only key players who were out.

Forget your petty excuses about injuries.

Footnote; this time last year we were 7 from 12 and failed to make the finals. This year it's 5 from 12, are you serious about the side actually making the 8 this year ?

Didn't stop them from getting flogged by 92 points by the Roo's when they had a few out (less than us at the moment) even with the depth they have built up being minor premiers .

Actually I've changed my mind, Lets get Wallet (lost one key player) or the guru Pagan (Less than 30% win ratio now into his 3rd year) and go back to the good old days of getting toweled by 10 goals +.

P.S. Allistair Clarkson may be available soon.

 

[Billy Hunt]

 

[Ripper]

Is that the best you have got?
You must know I am right when you post carp like that.

Remember. the grass is always geener

BTW, when was the last time we copped a 10 goal flogging?