To tag or not to tag

[Old Spice]

Have not had a tagger since Dutchie carrots.

Saints have a couple in their armoury with Jones and Baker, Cats have Ling, Hawks had McGlynn, Carlton have Joseph.

Is it something we need, or does that sort of negating player waste a position that might otherwise be occupied by a ball winner? Of course there are taggers, like Ling and Jones, who win plenty of their own ball, but those in the model of Joseph are pure negators and your more common variety of tagger.

We have run with type players like Johnson and Thomas, but not endless nigglers who just get in a quality opponents face and continually harrass.

I don't know if we have any in the pipeline - I'd say Barham, Cafeteria and Buckley might be the closest thing to that type of player, but not in the orbit of a committed tagger as such.

It seems in a team like the one we have at present, which is super even, it's better to just put a whole raft of quality players on the park and let the opposition waste a player trying to negate us. A purely negative player cannot be as effective against an even team as it might against a team with wild variations of quality, like Carlton. If you shut down Murphy, you might go a way to strangling Carlton, but whenever we have had Didak or Davis harassed, quality seems to squeeze out in some other area.

As good as St Kilda have been, I think they are similar to Carlton in the sense that there is some significant difference in quality across the team. Goddard, Fisher, Gilbert, Montagna and Dal Santo are top shelf, while Gwilt, Dawson, McQualter, Schneider, Geary are beneficiaries of the better players. Hayes gets the ball a heap, but is not as punishing by foot as a Goddard or Gilbert.

Carlton tonight shut-down Dal Santo and Fisher and that went a long way to scuppering the game. When two of our creators have been quiet in games, it hasn't effected the overall performance, owing I think to a greater spread of talent.

Geelong are more similar to Collingwood in the sense of an even team contribution which presents a nightmare for anyone attempting to shut down 'key players'.

Do we need a dedicated tagger?

 

[mattys123]

Face value would say yes, we need a tagger, but we are a little different then most teams.

Repeatedly over the years, Goodes has beaten us, yet his team can't seem to win against us, and the same can be said for several other players at times, including Judd this year.

I honestly believe that with the rotations we do (more then any other team) we enable our mids to play both an attacking and defensive side to their game that very few other teams can.

I believe MM has fashioned this approach off Geelong, who's midfielders have had it drilled into them that they are all responsible to assist anyone who is playing on the big name mids of the other team.

I do believe we use a "team" approach regarding tagging, rather then a one or two player approach, and I can't see this changing soon.

Whether or not this approach works or not, well we will all have to wait and see.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Yes, I think we need a dedicated tagger, but so far none have shown the complete repertoire of skills/attributes required to do the job well and consistently.

Barham - is super quick and a fierce tackler, good engine but lacks the ability to hurt the opposition going the other way due to poor disposal. It is essential that any modern-day tagger be able to hurt going the other way, otherwise the tagged player needn't pay his tag any respect and can just go and chase the ball.

Wellingham - also super quick and a good tackler, but is probably too offensively minded and his concentration is still not there to allow him to shut down an opponent for four quarters. Hence the club frequently gives him quarters nullifying the AFL's best mids. I tend to think his offensive attributes may be lost if he became a full-time tagger.

MacAffer - average pace but a fierce tackler. Good concentration however and and excellent disposal means his hurt factor is there. Currently lacks the tank to play long stints in the midfield on a premier opposition midfielder, but has the size to wear down an opponent over four quarters. If he can work on his endurance I think he is currently our leading tagging option in the 22 presently.

Francis - very quick and a fierce tackler. Good offensive hurt factors. Currently rivalling Rusling however for the Mr. Glass award. Will need to overcome a lot of obstacles but a quality long-term option if he gets his body right.

Hunter - very quick and a fierce tackler. Good offensive hurt factors. Also showing an ability to rack up the ball at VFL level so may have the opportunity to play seniors on merit, before even ascertaining his tagging capabilities. Our best tagging prospect outside our current 22 based on attributes, IMHO.

 

[StillWaiting5689]

A good tagger would be great, I'd love to have a player that is going to shut down an the best opposition player most weeks. Yeah the quality may always come from somewhere else but if the tagger does his job properly then it is 21v21 players with the oppositions best out of it, win. Great taggers make it almost 21vs22 players, massive win.
Plus having a player likes this gives us an option if an opposition player is carving us up. Look at what Cassissi did to Lovett on Saturday, went a very long way to port winning.

With Geelong, yes they have an even spread, but shutting down one of their players puts a lot of pressure on the rest of them. Fremantle have played well against them last few years and Crowley always plays pretty well on Ablett.

One of the main reasons I think Geelongs midfield is so good is not only their depth but specifically Ling.

 

[shawthing09]

I am going to go with no. On the basis of balance. As has been mentioned we spread the workload considerably and having a purely negatively player puts more pressure on the rest of the group to be the ball winners and creators.

Obviously it would be extremely nice to have both a guy who could play as a midfielder in his own right who is able to play a complete shut down role when called upon, but as has been seen in the past with guys like Kane Cornes and Brad Sewell generally these type of players stop playing as taggers. Paul Liccuria is another who started down the tagger path and then spent a considerable amount of his career playing as an inside mid.

I think the importance of a negating shut down player can be greately over-rated. The key play makers are more often then not guys like Judd, Mitchell and Selwood who are untaggable because they do so much of their work in traffic anyway. You can't curb someone's influence if they are willing and able to win the ball in and under. The way we are playing is not only even in attack but also in defence, rather then wasting time and a player trying to shut down a single play maker the idea is to strangle the options of every player on the ground, and at the moment that is working for us. As has been mentioned over the years a lot of stars have played fantastic games for us without being able to have a real match winning influence.

 

[Quicky]

Great thread topic Old Spice.

I've actually thought about this a bit. It's been one of the biggest changes in Micks tenure as coach that he's pretty much done away with taggers. There were times when we had Licuria, Holland and Steinfort that we had half a midfield of them running around. I think the reason we don't is partly because of personnel, we just don't have a player for the role and also because our team has become more even than in the past - we have greater depth and quality. I think Shawthing and TRS are spot on in their assessment that a tagger needs to be able to hurt going the other way otherwise there is no point. If they don't I just don't see a need for them in our team. If we could find a tagger that was not only a good negater but that could contribute to the midfield offensively as well it would really improve the team.

I think TRS summed up our options well - except he left out our best option!!!

I think McCarthy would be perfect in a tagging role. He has the speed, height, endurance and tenacity to be great in this role, and is obviously a talented midfielder in his own right. It could be a great way to introduce him back into the 22 as well. I'd love to see how he would go if he was given a defensive assignment.

The other suggestion - and this is an mdc special so all credit to him - is Swan. He is actually probably our best option based on potential alone. But really he is much too valuable in other roles for us.

 

[Chartreuse]

Was never really keen on tagging, but completely changed my view last night watching Carrazzo completely shut Dal Santo out of the game for the first 3 quarters. Was an amazing performance...not only did he wipe out Dal Santo's influence but it also clearly had a debilitating psychological effect on the rest of the Saints team whose players rely heaviliy on him to feed them the ball.

 

[Old Spice]

After reading Martin Blake's review of the game in The Age I'm wondering if we don't need a tagger for this game. http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/collingwood-v-geelong-the-midfield-20100517-v9hg.html

If Ling goes to Pendlebury or Swan, that goes a long way to squeezing our midfield, especially if Wellingham / Thomas / Johnson get a defensive job on Shabbs. Luke Ball might get his mittens on the ball in close, but we need to be able to release to someone free.

My man Cracka Barham could be bought in as a purely harrassing influence to negate the Shabbois. I'm thinking this as an option if Wellingham is not fit.

 

[the mighty T]

After reading Martin Blake's review of the game in The Age I'm wondering if we don't need a tagger for this game. http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/collingwood-v-geelong-the-midfield-20100517-v9hg.html

If Ling goes to Pendlebury or Swan, that goes a long way to squeezing our midfield, especially if Wellingham / Thomas / Johnson get a defensive job on Shabbs. Luke Ball might get his mittens on the ball in close, but we need to be able to release to someone free.

My man Cracka Barham could be bought in as a purely harrassing influence to negate the Shabbois. I'm thinking this as an option if Wellingham is not fit.

if ling goes to swan ill do a cartwheel...its happened time and time again and swan plays all over taggers because of his rotation and pace coming off the bench. The would have better luck shutting dids out of the game much like the saints have done in the past. I think ling will move onto pendles which will suit me just fine.

ive been pushing for barham to come in for a while but if wellingham isnt up for the game the only changes i can see happening is presti and meedders (if fit) in, anthony and n.brown/reid out

In regards to one of our players tagging, i wouldnt mind seeing caff get a run with role...hes strong enough, good tackle and has good disposal when hes got the pill

 

[The Norm]

The other suggestion - and this is an mdc special so all credit to him - is Swan. He is actually probably our best option based on potential alone. But really he is much too valuable in other roles for us.

Swan is that good one-on-one that he could play anywhere. I actually think he'd make a really good full-forward once he slows down, apart from the fact he's a horrible set shot for goal.

I've been wanting us to have a tagger for the past few seasons but I don't think we'll see a dedicated tagger till after Mick's reign is over. It obviously affects the rotations if you're giving somebody that role.

I think our best options (not taking into account structural balance) are:

Toovey, Wellingham and O'Brien, though you wouldn't really want Harry or Wellingham sacrificing their own game to nullify an opponent. Don't watch a heap of VFL but from what I've seen of Francis agree with others that he looks exactly the kind of player that could flourish in the role.

Would like to see Harry given one or two midfield tagging missions throughout the year ala Maxwell 08 QF - Mick has tried Harry on Goodes a couple of times in the past but it didn't quite work out. He's a better player now though.

I read a lot of people talking about Macaffer's tackling as one of his strengths. I know he gets there a lot and will get credited with a tackle in the box score, but I've only seen a few of his tackles really stick. Not having a go at him, cos I am a fan, just thought it was interesting.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Jonno has the tenacity, speed and ability to hurt from a turnover. He did a ripping job on Gablétte before he ruined his leg - can't see why he can't reprise that role (without mashing his leg again, obviously)

 

[smiddaz123]

Jonno has the tenacity, speed and ability to hurt from a turnover. He did a ripping job on Gablétte before he ruined his leg - can't see why he can't reprise that role (without mashing his leg again, obviously)

Johnson is in superb form offensively right now, better than I can remember for a long time. Personally I wouldn't like to see his role changed, it could mess with his form.

I think we're good enough to go head to head with any other midfield. The cats at their best will obviously beat our midfield, but tagging a player or two won't change that.

 

[Markfs]

I thought Presti was Collingwood's tagger..

No one runs purely negative taggers in the midfield anymore.... steven baker is in the back pocket. The new saints taggers have to do some damage offensively or the team doesnt get any drive..

personally i think mick would say that everyone needs to play defensive....luke ball is a tagger around contested play for example.....Toovs is tagger when the midfield get running....both of those guys have big defensive roles but they dont sit on just one player..

I think zoning has had an effect on tagging. You cant let someone run off, in order to make up numbers in a zone and then look for your player afterwards...

 

[Old Spice]

No one runs purely negative taggers in the midfield anymore.

Joseph? Crowley.

 

[Pie eyed]

"The Boot" did a reasonable job on Ablett I seem to recall.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

All this talk of tagging is ridiculous if you ask me.

We have won our last 5 games by 64, 65, 53, 66 and 36 points without tagging anyone and this is the last week I would pick to start. This is the first time in Mick's reign that he has allowed the players to play the game on our terms and that is an important step towards us winning our next premiership. To say, "Geelong is that good that we simply have to tag someone" is simply stating that we can't beat them on our own terms and are changing a winning formula because we are scared.

Judd dominated, we smashed Carlton. I'm not saying that we will smash Geelong but I'm pretty sure Ablett will dominate whether we tag him or not. I'd much prefer someone like Wellingham do exactly what he has all year and play a light "run with" role so Alett can't be completely unaccountable whilst winning clearances of his own (and hopefully snagging a goal or two).

Let's beat Geelong with Collingwood, not "anti-Geelong".
If we're not ready to do that then we are not ready full stop.

I for one think we are ready

 

[Quicky]

Joseph? Crowley.

Crowley had 11 second quarter possies against us on the weekend. Joseph was also very good against Port. I'd say both have more to their games than just their defensive game.

I think unless we have a quality tagger there is no point playing one. I see a few development options but no-one ready to go for this game. But I don't rate Barham as highly as you do Spiceman.