To tank or not to tank

coke_zero

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Posts
7,639
Likes
54
Location
chadstone
AFL Club
Richmond
#76
Surely thats enough top end talent to start winning games next year rather than going through another season of aiming to win no more than 4 games
It's more than enough to take us forward. We just need to get more value with our later picks. Last year draft we did really well. If we do half aswell as last years draft we will still have some decent kids. And Terry actually left as pretty well for talls.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

tigerT

Premiership Player
Joined
Mar 16, 2003
Posts
3,850
Likes
1,635
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Philadelphia Eagles
#77
Just to clear up a few points:

Montagna was taken with pick 37 not a first round pick like you suggest.
Dal Santo was picked up as a result of the Hall trade to Sydney which also netted the Saints Heath Black.
The Everitt trade netted the Saints picks 6 & 22 which the Saints then traded pick 6 & 31 on to Port for Barry Brooks while pick 22 netted them Matthew Ferguson a player whose career ended after 12 games.

In summary for trading away both Hall and Everitt the Saints gained Dal Santo & Black who were of any real service and Dal Santo was the only one who was around long enough to play in last year GF.


By the end of this season we'll have Deledio(1) Cotchin(2) Martin(3) Tambling(4) & pick 4 thats 5 top 5 picks, plus handy first rounders in Vickery(8) & Riewoldt(13).

Surely thats enough top end talent to start winning games next year rather than going through another season of aiming to win no more than 4 games in the hope that picks 4 & 6(could be 8 if GC finish last) next year will solve our problems.

What happens if after adding picks 4, 4, 6(8), 27, 28 & 29 over the next 2 years we still find ourselves struggling to win games?

**** me you are over analytical and send debates downhill missing the overall picture and doing your darndest to isolate various quotes to pick apart.

The fact of the matter is this, the saints got the bulk of their nucleus from the 2000-03 drafts as well as gaining players like Hamill and Gherig, not to mention having a list that played off in a GF several year prior, so they were no bunnies. They also had a champion there in Harvey. This set them on the path to good results and they have since been able to build upon that over the last several years t get them to where they are today..
Its common knowledge in footy circles that its a lot easer to build on & around an existing core than it is to build one from scratch like we are. Do you dispute any of this? So whilst I may have been off sightly on some of the small insignificant facts like correct draft picks, the crux of my argument is correct - that the saints built the foundations of their side in 2000-2003 through the draft and preseason drafts and have built on and around that core since. Kapish? ........

next point - tambling(4), vickery(8) have yet to prove themselves as players you can say will be our core for the next 4-5 years(tambling wont make it, at best barely a bst 22 player for mine). Lids/Cotch/Martin & Roo are the only ones I can say with confidence that will be bonafide a-graders. We need 2-3 more imo.
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Posts
1,402
Likes
250
Location
Ainslie 2010 AFC !!
AFL Club
Richmond
#78
It's more than enough to take us forward. We just need to get more value with our later picks. Last year draft we did really well. If we do half aswell as last years draft we will still have some decent kids. And Terry actually left as pretty well for talls.

I abhor tanking, and the Priority Pick that rewards it. ok the draft pick order does too but I can cop that. If you want the priority pick, well, go get yourself a carltank membership to go with it. And if you dont want one of them well theyve got Melbourne ones too.
If every team was looking to draft picks- well thatd be great - comedy in football, as 15 teams try to lose to each other whilst Geelong racks up Cups.
And fk spoon to flag, Ill pay $$ for a few years of solid mediocre to build on.
There - no membership for me until we finish 9th again!
that said - I dont think that getting games into the kids or developing players roles in different positions is tanking - but it could be - obviously if youve got a 2nds side that could belt your 1sts you are taking it, and the 2s are the obvious place to do role development, rather than on game day a la the Ds vs us in the 09 spoon playoff.
You could argue that we didnt even take the cue out of the rack this year - but equally that our older players (Polly, slops, Thommo, Kingy Tambling, aor our trades, Shultz, Raines) not substantially better than the young uns, and so Im ok with our 2010 so far ie we remain untainted by the stagnant waft of tank, but Ill tell you this, I dont want another SPOON even if pick 4 is Charles Brownlow himself!
I sincerely wish that a spoon LOST you a pick or bumped a pick
Give up Delidio AND Cotch AND Martin? (oh...& Rance, hardly seems worth mentioning this year)
ouch, but, yep, itd be a way better comp
imagine the scrabble out of last!
(and I guess we'd have someone else instead- plus other teams wouldnt have their PPs either - well, sheesh- that might have landed us Paddy Ryder instead of JON, Scully instead of Martin if we so chose...)
 

Daveeee_12

All Australian
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Posts
652
Likes
1,644
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Philadelphia 76ers, Man Utd
#79
tank so we come last, think we need another early draft pick, which will hopefully mean another high quality player dusty.
 

nut

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Posts
16,924
Likes
6,868
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
#80
Tanking doesn't exist in the form of teams going out there with the purpose of losing. The only form of tanking that exists is when teams plan for next year by sending important players in for surgery or getting as much games into the young players as possible.
I advocated tanking in 2008... when we could have had pics 1,2 etc.... looking back I'm actually glad we played well and finished the way we did... the main reason was to honour the career of Richo... with out us playing well he wouldn't be held in the same regard that he now is... it was a career defining year for him and the team playing well helped him achieve what he did....

ok... How can we possibly tank now??? play the kids??? we are playing the kids and we are playing well.
Do we want to rest the kids so we play worse??? WHY WOULD WE RESTRICT THE KIDS development???? WE need to put as much quality time into them as we possibly can. The sooner these kids develop a strong team structure and develop are strong understanding of each other the better.

WHY PUT the hand brake on our ever improving club???

If we continue to improve as we have over the last few weeks and play to the level we have been then I see no reason, providing that we gel together more and keep improving why we couldn't make the eight next season...

Is pick 4 more important then the players we already have??? do we risk getting games into out players we have now??

Do we play players out of position and risk their development???

Do we send them the wrong message????

Do we put pressure on players trying to hold their spots on the list... etc...
 

_RT_

Hall Of Famer
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Posts
34,865
Likes
42,915
Location
Southern Stand Punt Road End
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Furies Premiers 2010
#81
**** me you are over analytical and send debates downhill missing the overall picture and doing your darndest to isolate various quotes to pick apart.

The fact of the matter is this, the saints got the bulk of their nucleus from the 2000-03 drafts as well as gaining players like Hamill and Gherig, not to mention having a list that played off in a GF several year prior, so they were no bunnies. They also had a champion there in Harvey. This set them on the path to good results and they have since been able to build upon that over the last several years t get them to where they are today..
Its common knowledge in footy circles that its a lot easer to build on & around an existing core than it is to build one from scratch like we are. Do you dispute any of this? So whilst I may have been off sightly on some of the small insignificant facts like correct draft picks, the crux of my argument is correct - that the saints built the foundations of their side in 2000-2003 through the draft and preseason drafts and have built on and around that core since. Kapish? ........
I understand what you're saying but my point still remains as their GF side contained 4 top 5 picks, Riewoldt Ball Kosi & Goddard, the rest of them were made up of picks outside the top 5.

next point - tambling(4), vickery(8) have yet to prove themselves as players you can say will be our core for the next 4-5 years(tambling wont make it, at best barely a bst 22 player for mine). Lids/Cotch/Martin & Roo are the only ones I can say with confidence that will be bonafide a-graders. We need 2-3 more imo.
As for starting from scratch Hardwick himself says that our rebuild started back in 2004 so its not like we're starting from scratch. While Deledio Cotchin Martin & Jack are our only bonafide A graders at present who is to say some others might not jump up into that status.

Afterall, I doubt many people thought Montagna would turn into an A grade midfielder when he was taken at pick 37 back in 2001, in fact it took until 2006 for him to become a regular in the Saints lineup and 2009 until be stepped up to being an A grade midfielder.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Posts
338
Likes
0
Location
Caroline Springs
AFL Club
Richmond
#82
What happens if after adding picks 4, 4, 6(8), 27, 28 & 29 over the next 2 years we still find ourselves struggling to win games?
Which goes back to my point on the first page.. when is it enough?

Should we then tank for another year, and more picks and then keep tanking while they develop for a few years? Where does it stop?

There has to be a point when the team you have is good enough to start moving forward and winning games. But who decides when that is? Are they still meaningless wins if we finish 8th? or if we finish in the top 4 but not win the GF?
 
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Posts
1,305
Likes
57
Location
Geelong
AFL Club
Richmond
#83
Opinion vs opinion, ego vs ego, dick vs dick, who gives a shit. Everyones opinion is different. The fact of the matter is that Hardwick and his team know what they are doing more than any of us. Even more than Beaver or Barnzy who I think are the ones here who have their heads switched on the most.
 

Chops18

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Posts
5,273
Likes
1,329
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Juve, Cleveland Indians
#84
tank so we come last, think we need another early draft pick, which will hopefully mean another high quality player dusty.
It is possible to get quality players later in the draft or through trades so there is no need to tank just for the sake of a player who may be a gun or a complete dud. I'd rather us finish as high as possible and earn respect instead of be the team everyone makes fun of and laughs at.

I want to be able to watch a game and celebrate after by hearing the boys belt out the song not saying after losses thats awesome we can get pick 4 now and pin more hopes on a 18 year old.
 
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Posts
1,056
Likes
781
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Arsenal
#85
i think its a tad irrelevant what we all think, because there is no way in hell the thought would cross hardwicks mind to tamper with his positive, forward-moving, rebuilding of the club.
i voted no because i think that we're not good enough to move out of the bottom 3 sides this year, and thus will get a good pick anyway. if we finish second last, pick 6 is almost as good as pick 4, and the boys will have more wins, pride and belief in themselves.
theres rarely a marked difference in first round picks after you pass number 3 i reckon, so its no big deal.
to suggest they tank would be to undermine everything they've striven for so far this year.
halfway through and 2 wins in....i say go for it tiges
 

Chops18

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Posts
5,273
Likes
1,329
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Juve, Cleveland Indians
#86
i think its a tad irrelevant what we all think, because there is no way in hell the thought would cross hardwicks mind to tamper with his positive, forward-moving, rebuilding of the club.
i voted no because i think that we're not good enough to move out of the bottom 3 sides this year, and thus will get a good pick anyway. if we finish second last, pick 6 is almost as good as pick 4, and the boys will have more wins, pride and belief in themselves.
theres rarely a marked difference in first round picks after you pass number 3 i reckon, so its no big deal.

to suggest they tank would be to undermine everything they've striven for so far this year.
halfway through and 2 wins in....i say go for it tiges
Couldn't agree anymore well said :thumbsu:
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Chops18

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Posts
5,273
Likes
1,329
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Juve, Cleveland Indians
#88
The chances are we are not going to win 8-9 games. So would you rather lose the PP and pick 4 by 4 points or finish last and those 2 picks?
Yes thats correct i'd rather us win games instead of finishing bottom i must be crazy for wanting that over some 18 year olds that could turn out to be duds. Sure we wont 8 or 9 games but we are only 1 game behind a couple of teams if we finish 14th or 13th doesn't mean we can't get a gun at a later pick.
 

coke_zero

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Posts
7,639
Likes
54
Location
chadstone
AFL Club
Richmond
#89
Yes thats correct i'd rather us win games instead of finishing bottom i must be crazy for wanting that over some 18 year olds that could turn out to be duds. Sure we wont 8 or 9 games but we are only 1 game behind a couple of teams if we finish 14th or 13th doesn't mean we can't get a gun at a later pick.
Fair enough, But i think some people are starting to get carried away. Yes we have had some great form late but that probably wont stick with us all the way through the year. I really think we will struggle to win more than 5 games. If we do great. But atleast we have something to look forward to if we finish last.
 

Tiger08

Club Legend
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Posts
1,581
Likes
2,089
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
#90
Fair enough, But i think some people are starting to get carried away. Yes we have had some great form late but that probably wont stick with us all the way through the year. I really think we will struggle to win more than 5 games. If we do great. But atleast we have something to look forward to if we finish last.
Easy Tigers..Easy. we've won two of the last three and I've enjoyed them as much as anyone, but let's keep some sort of sense of reality here. I'm not sure out form has been 'great'.

We beat Port Adelaide in the pouring rain when they frankly didn't look interested and any VFL team would have been a chance that day (especially if you gave them Shane Tuck).

We beat West Coast who also looked pretty disinterested away from home. Jack had the quarter of a lifetime and the game was pretty square after that.

You can see we're improving and that's all you can ask for. Our defensive side is getting better, but we still turn over the ball too much and have too much Kingy about us and not enough Cotchin. We've also only really got one quality forward who is now about to get more attention than ever. We'll still get towelled by any of the good teams that are switched on, even if we do win the clearances and even the tackles.

We've got four winnable games left (IIRC) and I hope we win a couple and see some signs from our other forward option, BG. I also hope we continue to see good stuff from Nason, Astbury (might have a CHB there) and Edwards.

It's all going ok but we're still two years from being really competitive. Keep the lid on and don't get too dissapointed in the kids if they have a down week.

And for heaven's sake, can someone tell Danny Connors he doesn't need to baulk someone every time he touches the ball!
 

Chops18

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Posts
5,273
Likes
1,329
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Juve, Cleveland Indians
#91
Easy Tigers..Easy. we've won two of the last three and I've enjoyed them as much as anyone, but let's keep some sort of sense of reality here. I'm not sure out form has been 'great'.

We beat Port Adelaide in the pouring rain when they frankly didn't look interested and any VFL team would have been a chance that day (especially if you gave them Shane Tuck).

We beat West Coast who also looked pretty disinterested away from home. Jack had the quarter of a lifetime and the game was pretty square after that.

You can see we're improving and that's all you can ask for. Our defensive side is getting better, but we still turn over the ball too much and have too much Kingy about us and not enough Cotchin. We've also only really got one quality forward who is now about to get more attention than ever. We'll still get towelled by any of the good teams that are switched on, even if we do win the clearances and even the tackles.

We've got four winnable games left (IIRC) and I hope we win a couple and see some signs from our other forward option, BG. I also hope we continue to see good stuff from Nason, Astbury (might have a CHB there) and Edwards.

It's all going ok but we're still two years from being really competitive. Keep the lid on and don't get too dissapointed in the kids if they have a down week.

And for heaven's sake, can someone tell Danny Connors he doesn't need to baulk someone every time he touches the ball!
Hahaha i was think that when watching the win against the Eagles don't think i have seen a player throw a baulk so many times but in fairness to him he does an alright job doing so.
 

docko911

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Posts
7,130
Likes
13,527
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
Richmond
#92
If anyone hasn't realised yet....we wont be tanking so get your negative ideas away from this awesome football club. Based on the way we are playing i think we will win 6-8 games this year and attempt to make finals next year no BS.
 

docko911

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Posts
7,130
Likes
13,527
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
Richmond
#93
Picks are bullshit anyways, over the last 10 years pick 4 has not been the greatest pick in the world. It really doesn't matter who we pick up it just matters that they come into a winning environment and then they will also become successful. Tell me joel selwood would be the same player if he didn't play for Geelong?
 

ata33cro

Club Legend
Joined
Jan 8, 2005
Posts
1,054
Likes
0
Location
.
AFL Club
Richmond
#94
After last night we can pretty much confirm that the team won't be tanking.

In regards to Selwood, the same goes with Pods. If he didn't play at Geelong would he be dominating the forward line. They prove it isn't always about top draft picks, it does come down to the club's culture and development.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Posts
1,882
Likes
1,117
Location
Hexham
AFL Club
Richmond
Thread starter #95
If anyone hasn't realised yet....we wont be tanking so get your negative ideas away from this awesome football club. Based on the way we are playing i think we will win 6-8 games this year and attempt to make finals next year no BS.
You're right,we won't be tanking, I'm glad of that. But we won't be playing finals next year, more kids will be blooded and developed ,and another year down the bottom is most likely. A lot of this thread will be more relevant,

a) when we go past 4 wins this year
b) next year when we are down on form and not playing well and people start talking about missed opportunities, re: the draft.

It feels good at the moment but it's going to be a long and bumpy ride.
 

coke_zero

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Posts
7,639
Likes
54
Location
chadstone
AFL Club
Richmond
#96
You're right,we won't be tanking, I'm glad of that. But we won't be playing finals next year, more kids will be blooded and developed ,and another year down the bottom is most likely. A lot of this thread will be more relevant,

a) when we go past 4 wins this year
b) next year when we are down on form and not playing well and people start talking about missed opportunities, re: the draft.

It feels good at the moment but it's going to be a long and bumpy ride.
next year we should be aiming for anywhere between 11-8 on the ladder. If we do very well we will just make the 8.
 

doddy87

Senior List
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Posts
294
Likes
36
AFL Club
Richmond
#97
Not sure I want to tank but we have to come last this year! there is a big difference between the top 4 draft picks after that its anyones game... doesnt it feel like deja vu us winning games towards the end of the season then getting shafted on picks thus being sh1thouse for the next 4-5 years??? Please get it right this time I cannot go through another crap rebuild
 

tugga

Moderator
Joined
May 9, 2006
Posts
29,601
Likes
41,710
Location
Yid army
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Tottenham,Red Sox,San Antonio Spurs
Moderator #98
No point discussing tanking until we get to about round 20 and only have three or four wins on the board. Then we start to discuss it. And you can bet the coaching staff will discuss it too.
 

Punt_Road_Roar

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Posts
8,715
Likes
2,045
Location
Perth WA
AFL Club
Richmond
#99
We dont need to tank. Just make sure big Ben Griffiths is playing every week. The big fella is 3 wins from 3 games in his career, he doesnt know what losing is like. :thumbsu::D
 

Wally Matera

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Posts
5,277
Likes
3,610
Location
Who cares?!?!
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Liverpool
We need pick four more than we need additional wins. I dont care how many more games we win or lose, we cant lose sight of the fact that we are still so far behind - just look at the junk thats kicking the dew off the grounds at Coburg.

Pick four maybe nothing in comparison to years gone by, but the way the draft is set up this year, its doubly better than what every other established club will be getting.

We must get pick 4.
 
Top Bottom