To tank or not to tank

Barnzy

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We need pick four more than we need additional wins. I dont care how many more games we win or lose, we cant lose sight of the fact that we are still so far behind - just look at the junk thats kicking the dew off the grounds at Coburg.

Pick four maybe nothing in comparison to years gone by, but the way the draft is set up this year, its doubly better than what every other established club will be getting.

We must get pick 4.
Well said.
 

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the ranger

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We need pick four more than we need additional wins. I dont care how many more games we win or lose, we cant lose sight of the fact that we are still so far behind - just look at the junk thats kicking the dew off the grounds at Coburg.

Pick four maybe nothing in comparison to years gone by, but the way the draft is set up this year, its doubly better than what every other established club will be getting.

We must get pick 4.
If we're as far behind as you say, then we'll get pick 4. If we need to abandon our "winning behaviours" (as Hardwick puts it) to get pick 4 then we don't deserve it and we don't need it. We're not Carlton.
 

Barnzy

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If we're as far behind as you say, then we'll get pick 4. If we need to abandon our "winning behaviours" (as Hardwick puts it) to get pick 4 then we don't deserve it and we don't need it. We're not Carlton.
Actually, that's where you're wrong. Our wins will come against injury depleted teams like Brisbane/West Coast (they're shit too) or teams that will put the cue in the rack at the 2nd half of the year like Adelaide and send players off for early pre-season surgery and "experiment", not because we're better than them. We have the worst list in the comp.
 

the ranger

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Actually, that's where you're wrong. Our wins will come against injury depleted teams like Brisbane/West Coast (they're shit too) or teams that will put the cue in the rack at the 2nd half of the year like Adelaide and send players off for early pre-season surgery and "experiment", not because we're better than them. We have the worst list in the comp.
I disagree.
 

Wally Matera

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Actually, that's where you're wrong. Our wins will come against injury depleted teams like Brisbane/West Coast (they're shit too) or teams that will put the cue in the rack at the 2nd half of the year like Adelaide and send players off for early pre-season surgery and "experiment", not because we're better than them. We have the worst list in the comp.
Exaccary... the thought of losing pick 4 because we beat Port in round 22 is making me want to be sick. And to think that we have supporters that will be happy because we're taking the morale high ground... god bless them. :rolleyes:
 

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Exaccary... the thought of losing pick 4 because we beat Port in round 22 is making me want to be sick. And to think that we have supporters that will be happy because we're taking the morale high ground... god bless them. :rolleyes:
If we are in the position that we have won 4 games and we turn up in round 22 and beat Port Adelaide I will be disgusted. I don't think the club would be that stupid though.
 

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Actually, that's where you're wrong. Our wins will come against injury depleted teams like Brisbane/West Coast (they're shit too) or teams that will put the cue in the rack at the 2nd half of the year like Adelaide and send players off for early pre-season surgery and "experiment", not because we're better than them. We have the worst list in the comp.
Posted this in another thread yestersay and would like to get your opinion:

Round 13 2008 Fremantle sat in 14th spot with a 2-11 record well on the way to a PP. However in the last 8 weeks of the season they had what many here would term as meaningless wins against Melbourne(16th) Port(13th), WCE(15th) & Collingwood(8th) to end the season with a 6-16 record and ended up missing a priority pick. At seasons end Harvey delisted a heap of hacks and took 14 picks in the drafts.

Fast forward 12 months and they were 3-10 after 13 rounds in line for a PP if they so desired. In the last 9 rounds they won another 3 games against Essendon(8th), Port(10th) & WCE(11th) which some would say were pretty meaningless and again they finished 6-16 and missed out on the PP. Come draft time they took another 7 kids as well as 3 older players in the PSD/Rookie drafts(McPhee, Barlow & Silvagni) after getting rid of another group of duds.

Another 12 months on and after 13 rounds they sit in 3rd spot with a 9-4 record, not bad for a side that had won 12 of the previous 44 games and went into the drafts without a single PP. Just goes to prove that you don't necessarily need a PP to turn your fortunes around.
 

Barnzy

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Posted this in another thread yestersay and would like to get your opinion:
Freo got really lucky with guns like Broughton, Barlow, etc from the Rookie Draft and a couple others decent mature age players in Ballantyne, Silvagni, DeBeor. I'm sure I'm forgetting 1 or 2 as well. Will we be that lucky with all the clubs in the AFL now scouring the country looking for these "gems" with the compromised drafts coming up? Unlikely. Freo also had a couple of established superstars they just had to build on in Pavlich and Sandilands and a couple of other older heads.

We're at ground zero with our rebuild, we started just last year properly with the previous regime topping up and not comitting to youth in 2008/2007. We need all the picks we can get and it's about maximizing our chances. Anyways, I'm over this debate. You know my opinion, I know yours and we have been over it a million times.
 

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Freo got really lucky with guns like Broughton, Barlow, etc from the Rookie Draft and a couple others decent mature age players in Ballantyne, Silvagni, DeBeor. I'm sure I'm forgetting 1 or 2 as well. Will we be that lucky with all the clubs in the AFL now scouring the country looking for these "gems" with the compromised drafts coming up? Unlikely. Freo also had a couple of established superstars they just had to build on in Pavlich and Sandilands and a couple of other older heads.
Give me a break, Freo didn't get lucky, they picked well based on their recruiters doing proper research. We've now got 3 full time recruiters scouring the country, we won't need to get lucky, we just need to be smart.

We're at ground zero with our rebuild, we started just last year properly with the previous regime topping up and not comitting to youth in 2008/2007. We need all the picks we can get and it's about maximizing our chances. Anyways, I'm over this debate. You know my opinion, I know yours and we have been over it a million times.
You might want to tell Hardwick that we're at ground zero, he is on record as stating that he believes that our rebuild started back in 2004.
 

Barnzy

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Give me a break, Freo didn't get lucky, they picked well based on their recruiters doing proper research. We've now got 3 full time recruiters scouring the country, we won't need to get lucky, we just need to be smart.
Every single AFL club now will be scouring the country not only for 18 year old's but mature age players with the sudden exposure and popularity of these sort of players dominating in the AFL - Barlow, Pods, etc. It will be much harder and as I said, we're rebuilding so the more picks/higher picks we have, the better. I'd take an extra pick that snares us someone like a Bastinac over a couple of late season wins.

You might want to tell Hardwick that we're at ground zero, he is on record as stating that he believes that our rebuild started back in 2004.
Source?

Our rebuild started last year when we had 14 list changes, the club changed coach and realised we have to cull hard and draft a lot of youth. In 2008/2007 we didn't commit to total youth and topped up with players like Cousins, McMahon, Thomson, Hislop because we were apparently "lock and loaded" and gunning for finals. How is that rebuilding?

Anyways, as I said I'm over this. It's like talking to a brick wall.
 

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_RT_

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Every single AFL club now will be scouring the country not only for 18 year old's but mature age players with the sudden exposure and popularity of these sort of players dominating in the AFL - Barlow, Pods, etc. It will be much harder and as I said, we're rebuilding so the more picks/higher picks we have, the better. I'd take an extra pick that snares us someone like a Bastinac over a couple of late season wins.
Didn't realise that Bastinac was taken with a PP.

As for it being hard, no-one said it would be easy, but given the amount of extra money we've put into recruiting it should be a lot easier than it has been.



Source?

Our rebuild started last year when we had 14 list changes, the club changed coach and realised we have to cull hard and draft a lot of youth. In 2008/2007 we didn't commit to total youth and topped up with players like Cousins, McMahon, Thomson, Hislop because we were apparently "lock and loaded" and gunning for finals. How is that rebuilding?

Anyways, as I said I'm over this. It's like talking to a brick wall.
Back in the Q&A session on the Richmond site was the following:
This may sound like a strange question, but have you watched the ‘Dean Bailey at Melbourne’ scenario with interest, given they were a bottom-of-the-ladder side when he took over?
Knowing Dean reasonably well I have watched with interest, and look, they’ve acquired some enormous talent and stockpiled some talent too - they’re going to be a very formidable side in the near future. Sides have given us a blueprint throughout the course of time, you look at St Kilda, Geelong, and I think Melbourne will be a side of the future and hopefully Richmond is somewhat the same.
It’s just a matter of developing and nurturing that young talent to get you where you need to go. Geelong, from memory, started their premiership journey around the early 2000s, when they got Gary Ablett, Cameron Ling, Jimmy Bartel and Joel Corey to the team, and that’s what we’re hoping we’ve done in this draft. I think we started that process in 2004, and hopefully we can bolster that talent with the crop we just brought in.
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6301/newsid/89210/default.aspx

As I said he believes that the process of rebuilding the list started back in 04 and what we're doing now is just bolstering what we already had.
 

santa claws

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Posted this in another thread yestersay and would like to get your opinion:
fremantle have had good structure and a very sound base to build off.

crowley grover haselby mcpharlin johnson sandilands pavlich hayden duffield dodd mundy tarrant are reasons why people are saying they have underachieved in recent yrs.
these blokes are the mainstays of their club. they are their spine and structure.

sheesh the base they come from is a top 4 finish in 06
their position and situation is totally different to ours.

and cmon they won 10 games in 07 what did those 10 wins do for them leading into the next yr. absolutely nothing is what.

and those late wins in 08 what did they do for them it cost them terribly. what momentum did they get from those late wins for 09 this momentum bullshit is just that bullshit.
.and what momentum did they gain going into this yr they were terrible last yr with most pundits putting them in the bottom 4. they got belted by melb in rnd 20 and geelong in rnd 22 what did that do for them. they beat an insipid essendon at subi in rnd 21 on the backs of pavlich sandilands haselby and mcpharlin.

the other thing people forget is last yr the knives were out for harvey why i will never know his situation was he had to show he was the man for the job we are not in that position and wont be ever i hope. but if things go pear shaped for us hardwick will have at least 3 yrs before the knives are even looked at. like ai said we are in a totally different set of circumstances and comeing from a different place.

if they had lost those nothing games in 08 09 they end up with one of martin scully trengove. and another pick at 6 which would have netted a player like rohan sheppard or butcher. not to mention the pick around 19 they forewent in 08.
the question that needs to be asked is how much better of would they be if they went down this path you cant tell me those late wins in 08 and 09 did anything for them but harm.

they beat carlton on the weekend how many of that team were under 22, 5 or 6 thats it. it was a win on the back of their senior players and a rookie called barlow.
what they have done is inject some leg speed and decent kicks and a couple who can find the ball their window imo is a shallow one.

they delisted retired 9 players at the end of 08. these players were aged sub standard and past it. they should all have gone yrs before.they were bell. black both carrs johnson mcmanus and webster farmer. they were getting little from any of them the only one they lost who may bite them walked out on them it was warnock.

i keep saying we are not other clubs we have few established decent players yet alone established quality players to build from.

the smart thing to do is while in our position maximise the draft while we can.
like barnzy i to am over this debate if people think we could not do with a pp and think that at this stage of of our development and list building that wins are more important than drafting then they are fools.

we had 7 wins in 02 7 wins in 03 what good did those 3 extra wins do for us.

in o4 we finished l;ast and ended up with 5 top 20 picks which we went on to waste. but what if we had done a hawthorn and ended up with buddy and roughhead and lewis the process was correct the execution of that process was wrong.
i would argue hawthorn got it wrong in 05 winning 5 games they cost another pp.at least they stayed bottom 4 and gave themselves every chance in a shallow draft. us well without beating a top 8 side we we won 10 games a lot of good that did us.

i could go on and on for every yr since 01. we are again at those cross roads where our destiny is in our own hands we can chose to win late games with a terrible list or we can put the que in the rack and forgo one or two wins and ensure what should be a quality kid at 4 and a pp in the second rnd.

anyway whats the point of all this you are set in your thinking it has been done to death and i wont change my thinking just because we managed to win a couple of games against some very ordinary or depleted sides.

my perspective comes from i believe we have an ordinary list especially mature players up. i base this on strengths weakness and performance of our players we have few proven quality players and we have many players we need to upgrade on, if not all this yr over the next two or 3 drafts.

finally and not having a shot but how poor were we last yr it could not get any worse any coach we took was going to improve us and focus on what hardwick has done. why do i say this because it was so glaringly obvious.

many who i talk to i know would have done what has been done by hardwick so far and more. while i dont expect wins it was always going to be relatively easy to improve the list and many of the processes.
imo we have done the easy bit now for the hard stuff.

hardwick is in a unique situation. he has a 3 or 4 yr period of grace where no one expects results, apart from deluded ferals this should allow him to do what needs to be done without a knife poking him in the ribs. yet we have supporters already after just one clean out of the worst list of players ever assembled sprouting of about making finals after just one season. we have a chance to go thru this process immune from criticism and both morally and legally well within our rights to do it.
 
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If we are in the position that we have won 4 games and we turn up in round 22 and beat Port Adelaide I will be disgusted. I don't think the club would be that stupid though.
Agree with this post..

In fact if this happens to be the situation I think it could well be the most nervous I'll ever be during a tigers game..

That priority pick is VITAL.. Everyone seems to be going on about how much our recruiting has improved and that we are finally drafting right, well why not give the recruiters an extra crack inside the top 30 to find another gem?? Makes sense to me....

I do get the feeling however that we'll be put out of our misery before heading into the last round..
 

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Look Claws, I realise that its not going to happen next year, my point is Hardwick is trying to put into place structures so that we can build towards winning our next premiership, if that means we don't land a PP then so be it, PP aren't the be all and end all when it comes to building a premiership side, no doubt they CAN help, but they wont guarantee you a flag. Look at sides that have had them over the last decade and tell me the ones that have won a flag, there is only 2 and that is Hawthorn & WCE.

Carlton are chock full of PP's and can't get near a prelim let alone a GF, Dogs have had the PP and a prelim is their best effort so far, Saints made a GF but how long after they had the PP, are we supposed to wait as long as them just to make a GF. Even Melbourne, with all their PPs and first round draft picks, are still only 1.5 wins ahead of us this year and we haven't had half as many high picks as they have.
 

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Didn't realise that Bastinac was taken with a PP.

As for it being hard, no-one said it would be easy, but given the amount of extra money we've put into recruiting it should be a lot easier than it has been.




Back in the Q&A session on the Richmond site was the following:
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6301/newsid/89210/default.aspx

As I said he believes that the process of rebuilding the list started back in 04 and what we're doing now is just bolstering what we already had.
you are kidding arent you. there are just 4 left from 04 two of whom mcguane and polo are below standard.
there are none left from 05 thats right none.it would be far more sensible of hardwick to look from 06 onwards when making silly comments like that.
i suppose 07 and 08 were part of the rebuild as well where we used just 3 nd picks in each draft.yep thats rebuilding of the highest order.
just because hardwick says something does it make it true. hes also said at a time when we had not won a game its likely we will have another yr like this one.

these debates they go around and around.

all i can say is give me pick 4 27 29 46 63 80 psd pick whatever and hopefully we can trade a tambling or mcguane or both for reasonable picks.
that would be 8 or 9 players plus whatever rookies we go with.
this would give us an enormous advantage over most other clubs when you consider where those clubs will have to draft from.this makes it almost a normal draft for us.
 

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Agree with this post..

In fact if this happens to be the situation I think it could well be the most nervous I'll ever be during a tigers game..

That priority pick is VITAL.. Everyone seems to be going on about how much our recruiting has improved and that we are finally drafting right, well why not give the recruiters an extra crack inside the top 30 to find another gem?? Makes sense to me....

I do get the feeling however that we'll be put out of our misery before heading into the last round..
How is pick 28 vital? That's what we get as a bonus this year if we win less than 4.5 games. Unless you're talking about the year after, and I think it would be to the detriment of everything we are trying to achieve if we were to aim for less than 4.5 wins again next season.
 

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Look Claws, I realise that its not going to happen next year, my point is Hardwick is trying to put into place structures so that we can build towards winning our next premiership, if that means we don't land a PP then so be it, PP aren't the be all and end all when it comes to building a premiership side, no doubt they CAN help, but they wont guarantee you a flag. Look at sides that have had them over the last decade and tell me the ones that have won a flag, there is only 2 and that is Hawthorn & WCE.

Carlton are chock full of PP's and can't get near a prelim let alone a GF, Dogs have had the PP and a prelim is their best effort so far, Saints made a GF but how long after they had the PP, are we supposed to wait as long as them just to make a GF. Even Melbourne, with all their PPs and first round draft picks, are still only 1.5 wins ahead of us this year and we haven't had half as many high picks as they have.
you talk about processes but ignore the one process that gives you the best possible chance of getting quality players. the only time we have drafted quality players is with early picks. cotchin martin deledio all come from low finishes.
those other structures still have to be put in place regardless of where we finish this yr or next.
anyway this is definately my last post on this it really is tiresome we will just have to agree to disagree.
and meant to say it befoore but bastinac should be at richmond along with martin and griffiths. yep those meaningless wins do hurt all for the sake of those magnificent wins against who was it again and what momentum it gave us.
i can tell ya now i wont be going on just about bastinac if we only win 4 games this yr and that is what the planning should have been about we all knew where the list was at just like we do now.
 
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How is pick 28 vital? That's what we get as a bonus this year if we win less than 4.5 games. Unless you're talking about the year after, and I think it would be to the detriment of everything we are trying to achieve if we were to aim for less than 4.5 wins again next season.
I think it is vital in the sense that it offers us more than just any extra draft pick..

Carrying that pick to the trade table could prove to be very very handy should there be a player or two that we've perhaps got in our sights (Vespremi for instance). Having that extra pick up our sleeve would give us more room to move in getting a deal done without giving up heaven and earth.

Or we could look at it in the sense that on draft day there are always sliders, wouldn't it be nice to have 2 picks early in the 2nd round??

I agree with you Ranger in that I don't want us to be looking for more priority picks next season. I also think that it would be a massive step backwards..
 

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I'd love to have pick 27 and a PP if we traded say Tambling + PP and got pick 10-15 for it would be a bonus, even if we traded 2nd rounder + PP for a 10-15. It is always useful to have an extra pick in the mid 20's and you can deal well with it ad get you a good player aswell Astbury went in the 30's if i remember. Would have loved to ahve got Bastinac and Griffiths last season. McMahon always screws us over :thumbsdown:
 

the ranger

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I think it is vital in the sense that it offers us more than just any extra draft pick..

Carrying that pick to the trade table could prove to be very very handy should there be a player or two that we've perhaps got in our sights (Vespremi for instance). Having that extra pick up our sleeve would give us more room to move in getting a deal done without giving up heaven and earth.

Or we could look at it in the sense that on draft day there are always sliders, wouldn't it be nice to have 2 picks early in the 2nd round??

I agree with you Ranger in that I don't want us to be looking for more priority picks next season. I also think that it would be a massive step backwards..
It's handy, sure. All things being equal, you'd rather have it than not have it. But I don't think it's worth taking a dive for. We may still get it even if we're busting our arses every game trying to get wins on the board. But I'd rather we busted our arses and missed out on pick 28 than lay down and get it.
 
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In the end, to me, this is a question of the value of what, as a collective, DH, Dimma, Leppa, the recruiters, the fitness staff, Benny Gale, and all the people that are currently building and developing the RFC of the future are worth vs. compromising what they are instilling for an extra PP. It's also a question of how much will each player dare to believe in himself, and the synergy of the team, before he reverts to accepting that he can not succeed without another player.


We have been the worst team at spotting and nurturing talent. If we still are (now and looking forward), then yep, compromise the belief system and the culture, cause we are going to need that pick and every other little bit of help we can get... becuase the foundations are (still) not there.

What I see now is the dawn of a new RFC, that will not, and should not subscribe to tanking. I want to see 22 yellow and black warriors run out each and every week and go into battle for each other, their coach, the jumper and our proud history.... and the belief they have in what *they* CAN achive, is the basis for sucess. A PP is only something that can be added to that foundation... but it is not the foundation itself.
The last 5 weeks I have seen the players believe, and relish the battle.

Ben Cousins summed it up beautifully when he said 'we're taking the first baby steps, and it's beautiful'. Please Tigers, do not compromise that in any way.
 
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