Society/Culture To what extent are Universities to blame for the current children's literacy crisis?

[kickazz]

Again, nothing In the article casting an eye over what is being taught to University education students despite continued substantial problems in primary and high school student literacy and numeracy.

One in three students failing to meet English and maths standards, NAPLAN data shows

One in three Australian school students is not meeting literacy and numeracy benchmarks, and more than one in ten need additional support, the 2024 NAPLAN results show.

www.abc.net.au

It's parents, not teachers though.

All the study of pedagogy in the world won't help when you spend half your time on behaviour management.

 

[Cmarsh]

It's parents, not teachers though.

All the study of pedagogy in the world won't help when you spend half your time on behaviour management.

Don't know how you can be so definitive. Maybe if kids aren't behaviouraly regulated in a classroom environment then it says something about that environment.

 

[the_interloper]

Don't know how you can be so definitive. Maybe if kids aren't behaviouraly regulated in a classroom environment then it says something about that environment.

It's probably more to do with the home environment and parenting imo

 

[Gethelred]

Don't know how you can be so definitive. Maybe if kids aren't behaviouraly regulated in a classroom environment then it says something about that environment.

...

Tell me you've been in a classroom for a while without saying you've not been in a classroom for a while.

Let me introduce you to Lil John*. John has ADHD which prevents him sitting still, and oppositional defiant disorder (ODD); when you tell him to do something he is immediately inclined to do the opposite, and when you tell him not to do something he's immediately inclined to do it. John is rather clever, too; he's got two older siblings and performs above level as well as being socially very adept; he'll know when you're trying to manipulate him using reverse psychology. John has also got issues around not respecting personal space, and other students - everyone except a single friend - refuses to sit near him because of it.

Scarlett* is from a broken home, badly broken. Her father and stepmother are emotionally manipulative, and she cannot emotionally regulate at all. When she starts getting stressed, she behaves akin to an old school boy; her emotion expresses itself in depressive silence or furious outbursts. One of her triggers is raised voices, as that happened a significant amount before her parents divorced. She will walk into a classroom as happy as the sun, or apoplectic in fury and you're not going to know until it happens.

Robin*'s parents don't believe in schooling. He has been heard saying, "Those that can do, those that can't..." in class. He is extremely clever, but behaves almost completely like a troll; if he's not annoying someone - you, a friend, a classmate, the principal, someone in a neighbouring room - he's absent; probably due to suspension again. He has a behaviour plan and does just enough to stay on the right side of it, but he knows precisely which lever to pull to derail your lesson at any given time.

He'll probably needle Scarlett.

Finally, let me introduce you to Marion*. She has three older brothers, and her family is supposedly deeply religious. She will say openly homophobic things quite deliberately to get out of doing work, knowing that when you call home to tell her parents they will take her side. She knows precisely what she has to do to get exited; getting exited gets her out of doing work, you see. She will refuse to do any work whatsoever and she will fail every assessment you put in front of her purely because she refuses to do them. You give her attention at all, she'll ping you from corner to corner with misbehaviour around the room from other students - she's very clever when it comes to knowing who is misbehaving where - to take your eye off her, and will work you over until you're off.

You're the teacher, Cmarsh. You've got all four in the same room. You've got all that behaviour to control, what'd you do?

Go.

*Names changed.

 

[skipper kelly]

Shoot them in the legs.

 

[Gethelred]

Shoot them in the legs.

Arming teachers – an effective security measure or a false sense of security?

Putting guns in the hands of schoolteachers is a popular idea among gun-owners and conservatives, but research suggests it may pose more problems than it solves.

theconversation.com

 

[Cmarsh]

It's not just English...

Australian kids are struggling with maths due to 'unproven' teaching methods, report shows

Experts are labelling Australia's numeracy levels as a "crisis" with "faddish" teaching methods.

www.sbs.com.au

Again, all the blame goes on the Government, but there is no scrutiny on what methods trainee teachers are instructed in by Universties that those teachers go on to teach students at the coalface that are producing the poor student results.

 

[Episode IV]

Why are 'anti-woke' posters predominantly the worst in terms of grammar and literacy on these forums?

Stopped reading after the first line.
Smirking.

 

[Episode IV]

But back on topic, which is why I started reading this thread again...
I've had some recent experience with the Uni thing. One impression I garnered was that there are more than a few international students who have only a very basic grasp of the language.

I think that that might be a reason for Universities influence on declining language skills - with the advent of private universities and the need for students to make profit, they'll take just about anyone.

The moment one changes a not-for-profit into a for-profit, standards drop.

 

[Episode IV]

Your position is that university is so bad, that it has a net negative impact on the ability to engage with the 'English' language.

No, my position is that Universities being privatized has led to them being (ostensibly) forced to make a profit. International students are a huge, if not the primary, source of revenue.

Like... duh.

So you should provide evidence that people are better off without University education.

I've never said anything of the sort.

What??

But you can't, because you know you're lying. And your entire position is to try and link international students with immigration, with asylum seekers, with housing.
And you know that you're just wasting out time.

And now you're wasting my time. Off with you.

 

[Episode IV]

Outside of taxation, why would that be profitable for an Australian Government?
Just stop and think about it for a moment.

Education, at the university level, last I checked, is the third most profitable export industry in Australia.
Do you not know that?

What does a country have to gain, by increasing the populace with education rather than just labour?
Your turn...

It doesn't.
Is that what's happening, though?

 

[Episode IV]

I had to have a multi-take on this...

There is no gain for a country by increasing the education of the populace??

Your question was "What does a country have to gain, by increasing the populace with education rather than just labour?"

Arguably, that isn't what we're doing. I'm pretty sure a post I've made before addresses this.

 

[Gethelred]

But back on topic, which is why I started reading this thread again...
I've had some recent experience with the Uni thing. One impression I garnered was that there are more than a few international students who have only a very basic grasp of the language.

I think that that might be a reason for Universities influence on declining language skills - with the advent of private universities and the need for students to make profit, they'll take just about anyone.

The moment one changes a not-for-profit into a for-profit, standards drop.

On this, I question how much influence this would have on specifically education degrees, undergrad and postgrad alike. If you wanted to have a look at the makeup of our international student population, this might help:

Where do international students come from and what do they study?

internationaleducation.gov.au

While I don't have the time - well, at the moment I do, but I don't want to - to go through the stats and get a concrete picture, I can almost guarantee the vast preponderance of students don't go into education.

They're here to get degrees which make money. Teaching, alas, isn't one of those fields.

 

[Mofra]

But back on topic, which is why I started reading this thread again...
I've had some recent experience with the Uni thing. One impression I garnered was that there are more than a few international students who have only a very basic grasp of the language.

How many international students are studying to become a teacher?

 

[the_interloper]

But back on topic, which is why I started reading this thread again...
I've had some recent experience with the Uni thing. One impression I garnered was that there are more than a few international students who have only a very basic grasp of the language.

I think that that might be a reason for Universities influence on declining language skills - with the advent of private universities and the need for students to make profit, they'll take just about anyone.
The moment one changes a not-for-profit into a for-profit, standards drop.

This is true, i experienced this in Engineering many years back. However most of them turned out to be incredibly smart, in a group project once an international student finished all the coding and programming in the first night! Of course he needed help in writing the report which I was happy to do ha ha

 

[Episode IV]

On this, I question how much influence this would have on specifically education degrees, undergrad and postgrad alike. If you wanted to have a look at the makeup of our international student population, this might help:

Where do international students come from and what do they study?

internationaleducation.gov.au

While I don't have the time - well, at the moment I do, but I don't want to - to go through the stats and get a concrete picture, I can almost guarantee the vast preponderance of students don't go into education.

They're here to get degrees which make money. Teaching, alas, isn't one of those fields.

I see where you're coming from now, I was a bit confused at first. I hadn't mentioned teaching.
But you're approaching it from how Uni affects children's literacy. Thread title. Ok.

I don't think it really does, all that much, other than in one or two aspects which are still playing out.

The first of these is the current attitude on the part of employers who seeks out those who have uni degrees - the grades themselves do not matter. Whether you passed and have the piece of paper, or passed with high distinctions and fantastic grades, for most positions, doesn't matter much at all. I do think the respondents in the article I was reading on this subject were speaking more of mainstream commerce and social roles, rather than STEM subjects (where'd you'd expect performance matters far more - or I hope it does), but it was an interesting note to read.

This is an example or perhaps a reflection of a society which has changed from being one based around merit (ostensibly) to one based on inclusion and DEI.
What or who you are, matters more than what you can do.

I've mentioned before, when I was working in the NT some years ago there was an edict from the NT government passed around which basically stated that Aboriginal people were to be employed by government departments if they could do the job they were applying for - if there were other applicants more experienced, better educated or whatever, the Aboriginal people were to be employed instead.
I have no idea if that is still in force, but I remember at the time it resulted in more than a few raised eyebrows. Along with one or two very mediocre government employees.

Even University itself... there are quite a few pathways to a university education now regardless of whether you have the grades or not (other than, as noted, in the more difficult STEM courses). Back when I were a lad, getting into Uni at all was an achievement.

What this all means, is that (hypothetically) the idea that one does not need to excel in order to succeed is filtering down into younger people. Enough to get by, is enough - particularly when the government will step in and give you a hand if you're perceived to be in need of one

If average Joe can do anything, and is sometimes given a leg up if they're a "minority", or whatever, then there seems to be little incentive to be anything more than average Joe.

 

[Episode IV]

This is true, i experienced this in Engineering many years back. However most of them turned out to be incredibly smart, in a group project once an international student finished all the coding and programming in the first night! Of course he needed help in writing the report which I was happy to do ha ha

Absolutely, yes. I've recently been responsible for trying to teach a Bangladeshi guy the ropes... this guy was pretty smart, indeed. But the language skills... sheesh. It took some effort.
Nice guy though, I liked him. Good worker, great attitude.
Took a lot of pictures on his phone for layouts and wotnot, so he knew where everything was... but it was very difficult to impart why it was that way.

Point there being that the sort of people getting Uni degrees without fluent language skills are still not necessarily employable, because communication is a major part of modern business practices. You can get some good workers, but you don't always get dynamic ones.

Writing that report might be something absolutely necessary in the "real world" but not something they're really prepared for.

 

[ShadowCat]

It's not just English...

Australian kids are struggling with maths due to 'unproven' teaching methods, report shows

Experts are labelling Australia's numeracy levels as a "crisis" with "faddish" teaching methods.

www.sbs.com.au

Again, all the blame goes on the Government, but there is no scrutiny on what methods trainee teachers are instructed in by Universties that those teachers go on to teach students at the coalface that are producing the poor student results.

Clearly you have an agenda here. As someone actually studying teaching now - as a career change - I can guarantee 99% of what you have posted in this thread is sensationalized bullshit. It's a political angle, with no critical thought engaged, in order for neoliberal policy to continue to pervade the idea of what 'teaching' is.

It's also a push to 'explicit' teaching, rather than student-centered learning. This is being driven by the OECD on an international scale, and has been proven by Nordic countries like Finland and Norway (some of the highest performing literacy and numeracy countries in the world), to not work.

Ask yourself this, why are results 'going down' despite the continued push of NAPLAN on students, alongside other standardized testing methods, since 2008? It's got nothing to do with how literacy and numeracy is being taught, but how NAPLAN is interpreting and transcribing the data - compared to other schools, states, and countries.

Are the latest NAPLAN results really an ‘epic fail’?

My study clearly shows no long-term decline in NAPLAN results from 2008 to 2022. In 2023, they changed the way the test was organised.

theconversation.com

https://www.menziesrc.org/news-feed/naplan-a-shocking-wake-up-call#:~:text=Taxpayers have invested $662 billion,standards is not about funding (by Menzies and Sarah Henderson - who has just been outed as someone wanting to cut free TAFE completely)

Why are schools still doing NAPLAN?

Education authorities remain insistent that the National Assessment Program – Literacy and Numeracy...

www.educationreview.com.au

There's a lot of evidence to show that it's standardized testing itself, that is causing any changes in literacy and numeracy (those that actually are evident across the new set of categories as put forward by the OECD). We think testing = evaluation and progress. Kids now are just learning how to pass the test, as are teachers and the schools, so they get funding and favourable reviews on MySchool. Whereas a country like Finland, actually cares about how the students interpret their learning, we have gone down the neoliberal path of using curriculum to breed educated young people who will be good contributors to the workforce - their words not mine.

Universities are actually discussing these issues, and pushing back on a lot of these agendas. You'd know that if you actually critically understood the teaching field. You don't, and you're just pushing random news articles with your own bias/perspective, without critically analyzing multiple sides, and providing a peer-resourced/supported outcome.

Curriculum is what dictates teaching. This is designated by ACARA, and this is implemented via government policy and think tanks. Universities have no say in what any particular child is taught, or how the teachers themselves present that curriculum. They simply teach how to critically understand the profession itself, what pedagogies you should consider when creating your own, and how to best understand the contemporary teaching landscape. Again, universities are not responsible for what the students are taught - the curriculum is. The curriculum is a government influenced thing. Universities have no say/influence on this.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

My parents taught me to read before I even started school. First day of prep the teacher, "This is the letter A". Me, "This is going to be a long year". Reading starts at home.

I've taught my kid phonics for years prior to starting school and he's reading multiple syllable words while the teacher identifies a letter each week.

Some of this is down to natural ability. My 4-year-old is starting kindergarten (year before prep, foundation or pre-primary) this year and he's reading levels are where kids should be at the start of year 1.

My second kid will be nowhere near him at the same age. His diction, comprehension of colours, names of animals, and ability to identify letters is way behind his older brother. The second kid is developing normally, a highly vocal and engaged kid.

 

[Pieshighflyer]

Maybe indirectly? This could be a reflection of lowering standards to increase admissions (and therefore profit) or it could simply be that this has happened because no one is studying to br a teacher.

Something’s not adding up in our schools—and it’s not just the maths and… | Indramohan Singh | 45 comments

Something’s not adding up in our schools—and it’s not just the maths and science scores. I’m not a mathematician, but having done a PhD in life sciences—and spending years analysing complex datasets—you get pretty good at spotting patterns. And the pattern here is painfully clear. Right now in...

www.linkedin.com

 

[Roylion]

Maybe indirectly? This could be a reflection of lowering standards to increase admissions (and therefore profit) or it could simply be that this has happened because no one is studying to br a teacher.

Something’s not adding up in our schools—and it’s not just the maths and… | Indramohan Singh | 45 comments

Something’s not adding up in our schools—and it’s not just the maths and science scores. I’m not a mathematician, but having done a PhD in life sciences—and spending years analysing complex datasets—you get pretty good at spotting patterns. And the pattern here is painfully clear. Right now in...

www.linkedin.com

The following statement in that article was interesting.

"Right now in Australia, some universities are letting students into teaching degrees with ATARs as low as 39. To put it in perspective, most of your subject study scores would have hovered around the low 20s - that’s well below the average of 30. For example, it’s like getting a 22 in English, a 25 in General Maths, and similar scores in other subjects."

A couple of comments:

Study scores and ATARs are rankings of students and not necessarily a reflection of the standard of work they are capable of. Over the 40+ years I've been teaching, I've had many student teachers who were excellent teachers but didn't necessarily gain the highest ATARs. Likewise I've had student teachers that gained very high ATARs but were fairly poor teachers.

Minimum university requirements also reflect supply and demand for places. Teaching is just not that attractive to many any more for a whole host of reasons. Make teaching as a career more attractive for teaching prospects and watch the minimum requirements for teaching courses rise as the demand rises.

Lastly, gaining entry to a teaching undergraduate degree course does not necessarily mean one will successfully complete said course. I've failed a number of prospective teachers on their rounds for a number of reasons.

 

[HairyO]

Lazy parents, lazy kids, and education departments filled with morons who dont actually care about providing a proper education to children, but instead want to fill their heads with 1,001 things which will not help them in their adult life.

 

[dorianyates]

More emphasis should be placed on LOTE.
During primary school a second language such as a Romance language or German should be taught.

At high school a Romance language or German should be continued as well as an Asian language.

Learning a second language would improve literacy levels.

Australia doesn’t take LOTE very seriously compared to other countries learning English.

It seems that Western culture we praise talent but I get the impression in Asian cultures they place much more importance on effort and work ethic.

 

[dorianyates]

How should the Education system prepare and explain the alienation most people/teenagers will face during their working years?

By alienation I mean most people will have to perform tasks that are menial and boring in order to earn their wage.