Tobacco Tax - who does it really hurt?

[CM86]

Reducing smoking numbers is a good thing. But like drugs, if someone is addicted to tobacco they will always find a way to get it. All that is going to happen is people will buy black market tobacco and alot of innocent people will become criminals because the government doesnt know how to live within its means.

People who do physical jobs generally dont get paid as much as people who have sitting down job, their bodies break down earlier and they generally dont live as long.

What do you base this on???


And on top of that, you've been shown repeatedly that all smoking has decreased, including from the black market.

 

[Seeds]

So you would rather live to 95, with the last 15 years of your life living with dementia in a nursing home which will cost all of your assets and die alone and terrified?

We are all going to die one day and we almost never have a say in the way we die but while we are alive we all need our indulences. Tobacco is one of these for many people. All this tax will do is hurt families.

The government does not need any more money

People should be able to smoke if they want. But they need to be exempted from accessing government subsidized health care and need to pay higher taxes to account for the fact they have a higher risk of not working to retirement age and are acting as a giant advertisment for the smoking industry to the young. Negative externalities of their habit mist be paid for by them because they choose to smoke. People should be free to do what they want but need to pay the cost they impose on the rest of society for doing so if their actions have a cost. Its really that simple. There is no bias against smokers. Smokers are not hard done by except for the fact they were duped as kids by the smoking industry. That doesn't mean they should get to dupe the future as well.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

It's so hard to try and converse with you, because your world view is ridiculous.

you've been shown repeatedly that all smoking has decreased, including from the black market.

He runs a corner shop and cigarettes sales have taken a big hit, only reasonable explanation. Argues the taxes don't work yet are simultaneously awful. Others disagree with him with facts. He just repeats over and over.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Cigarettes are more widely available than alcohol in retail which is strange. Yes we have advertising bans and now plain packaging but you can buy smokes from Coles, the servo, the deli etc. but booze only from a bottle-o. I'm surprised cigarettes haven't gone the way of dedicated tobacco shops.

In Victoria you can buy alcohol in supermarkets. Regular part of Aldi and IGA stores. Only ever seen one Coles with it though and never in Woolworths, but that might be just because they have their spin off shops (Liquorland/BWS) next door.

 

[Scotland]

In Victoria you can buy alcohol in supermarkets. Regular part of Aldi and IGA stores. Only ever seen one Coles with it though and never in Woolworths, but that might be just because they have their spin off shops (Liquorland/BWS) next door.

You can buy booze from IGA Canning Bridge in Perth also, but it's really a separate store which is not a whole lot different to a BWS/Woolies liquor being attached to a Woolies.

 

[Puddy]

He runs a corner shop and cigarettes sales have taken a big hit, only reasonable explanation. Argues the taxes don't work yet are simultaneously awful. Others disagree with him with facts. He just repeats over and over.

I live in SA, the state which has destroyed small business with high taxes and utility costs, no way would I get involved with any buisness.

I work in a high stress, high physical, low paid sector where 4 in 10 people smoke. Take that away and they will drink

 

[Puddy]

We do not need politicians and academics who have no real life experience telling us what we should or should not be doing. We do not need money hungry governments going after societies most vunerable people. Workers smoke, and workers are the backbone of our country, not academics. We dont need governments making criminals out of innocent people when balck market tobacco expands even further.

Big tobacco is bad. They sell a product which harms people, but then what do you think of governments which exploits this. In alot of ways plain packaging is a good thing because it took away big tobaccos only way of advertising in Australia

 

[Puddy]

He runs a corner shop and cigarettes sales have taken a big hit, only reasonable explanation. Argues the taxes don't work yet are simultaneously awful. Others disagree with him with facts. He just repeats over and over.

I spoke to a tobacconist in Adelaide 2 months ago, funnily enough one of the few business which hasnt been laying off employees and struggling big time due to South Australias recession. I was told cigar sales have remained fairly steady and cigarette sales are slightly down and due to plain packaging people are no longer as loyal to certain brands, people generally just buy the cheapest brand. I dont know if 2 different brands of cigarettes taste different from each other but it doesnt seem to have made much difference

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Puddy Why do you purport to have so much concern for people who, according to your own claims, would let their children starve so they could buy cigarettes?

If you ask me, anyone who would do that should be investigated and face to possibility of having their children taken away and/or face charges of neglect and/or abuse.

 

[Puddy]

It's child abuse.

You see a heroin addict doing the same to their kids, the kids are taken away.

Gov tax is too high on heroin!

It is abuse and if taxes go up children will go hungry and normal people will become criminals when they buy black market tobacco. It will hurt the poor and working class, not academics and others who are out of touch.

 

[Puddy]

So smokers are child abusers?

No, thats not what im saying at all

 

[CM86]

No, thats not what im saying at all

Are they already abusing kids?

Or is it only if the cost goes up more?


Is it a set level? If someone changes from a pack a day to a pack a week, will he/she stop abusing their children?


Why can't workers be more like academics, and stop abusing their children?

Should only academics be trusted with children?

 

[Puddy]

Sorry if i have offended you. Im not here to launch any personal attacks. I suspect one of the reasons for the hostility is that alot of people dont understand why people smoke. Ever wonder why so many nurses smoke? Because they are in a high stress enviroment and its a release for them. Then think to why a beaurocrat or an academic doesnt smoke, they have cruisy jobs where they can sit all day and when they have time off they can flutter off to their holiday homes. Its a different world out there and the ruling elite will never understand it.

 

[CM86]

Sorry if i have offended you. Im not here to launch any personal attacks. I suspect one of the reasons for the hostility is that alot of people dont understand why people smoke. Ever wonder why so many nurses smoke? Because they are in a high stress enviroment and its a release for them. Then think to why a beaurocrat or an academic doesnt smoke, they have cruisy jobs where they can sit all day and when they have time off they can flutter off to their holiday homes. Its a different world out there and the ruling elite will never understand it.

I'm not offended, and sorry if I've offended you.

I'm just frustrated by this stupid binary world you've created and your deliberate ignorance.

And I'm starting to realise you're actually trolling. And you got me good, didn't you?

 

[Puddy]

I'm not offended, and sorry if I've offended you.

I'm just frustrated by this stupid binary world you've created and your deliberate ignorance.

And I'm starting to realise you're actually trolling. And you got me good, didn't you?

No mate im not trolling, I only troll soccer supporters.

I look at my situation, work huge hours and the government wants to take away my vices (cigars). I look at a nurse who earns 40k dealing in a stressfull situation whose only outlet is to smoke, while managment takes home an huge wage. Im sick of goverments not looking after the people who are keeping the country running while white collar workers who sit all day have it good

 

[CM86]

No mate im not trolling, I only troll soccer supporters.

I look at my situation, work huge hours and the government wants to take away my vices (cigars). I look at a nurse who earns 40k dealing in a stressfull situation whose only outlet is to smoke, while managment takes home an huge wage. Im sick of goverments not looking after the people who are keeping the country running while white collar workers who sit all day have it good

But this idea that there is only stress in low paid jobs...
And that the only outlet for stress is to smoke...

IS RIDICULOUS...

It isn't based on anything at all...

And you go from that... to say that if the tax is increased, they will not feed their kids... so they can continue to smoke...

If you're not trolling, why don't you answer these questions, which are just as legitimate as what you're claiming.

1. Are they already abusing kids?

2. Or is it only if the cost goes up more?

3.Is it a set level? If someone changes from a pack a day to a pack a week, will he/she stop abusing their children?

4.Why can't workers be more like academics, and stop abusing their children?

5.Should only academics be trusted with children?

 

[Lebbo73]

But this idea that there is only stress in low paid jobs...
And that the only outlet for stress is to smoke...

IS RIDICULOUS...

It isn't based on anything at all...

And you go from that... to say that if the tax is increased, they will not feed their kids... so they can continue to smoke...

If you're not trolling, why don't you answer these questions, which are just as legitimate as what you're claiming.

1. Are they already abusing kids?

2. Or is it only if the cost goes up more?

3.Is it a set level? If someone changes from a pack a day to a pack a week, will he/she stop abusing their children?

4.Why can't workers be more like academics, and stop abusing their children?

5.Should only academics be trusted with children?

Well, that was a load of dribble. People deal with stress in different ways. I used to smoke more when under stress. I haven't had a cig in over 7yrs and now when I am stressed I don't know how to deal with it properly. There are techniques obviously to calm yourself but if you suffer a little bit of anxiety everything goes out the window. Smoking was so effective at calming the nerves. No matter what though, I will not go back to smoking!

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I have watches people waste away and die in their 50s with cigarette caused cancer, and i have watched people die in their 90s with dementia. Its the reality of life. We cant choose the way we want to go out, we can make choices which influenece it though. If someone wants to smoke tobacco, they are not evil, they are not bad people. If someone chooses to have a sitting down job, they are not evil either.

If we want to hurt workers by raising tobacco taxes, we should be taxing people with non physical jobs at a higher rate so we all share the costs. Its not really fair that we try to take away the vices of the workers and we dont do the same with white collar workers

you do realise this whole "white collar" "blue collar" things is a thing of the past yeah? there's plenty of "sit down" jobs which are made of the poor?
in fact statistically your more likely to have less employee rights, benefits and pay as an entry level office worker then most laborer jobs because also get saddled with working unpaid overtime and no paid vacations as your on a salary.

http://www.smh.com.au/small-busines...r-jobs-turning-light-blue-20140903-3eshc.html

In fact given trends in employment market within the next 80 years office workers will account for the majority of this countries poor.

 

[Maddhew]

Can someone give me the details on blackmarket tobacco? I like to think of myself as a resourceful fella, who can get his hands on most things legal or otherwise, however I have absolutely no idea where I can get cigarettes from anywhere other than a legit retailer.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Can someone give me the details on blackmarket tobacco? I like to think of myself as a resourceful fella, who can get his hands on most things legal or otherwise, however I have absolutely no idea where I can get cigarettes from anywhere other than a legit retailer.

well most it comes from legitimate retailers, just like how they sell looseys to the homeless and underaged kids, you can also go to certain tobacconists who will sell you entire boxes of loose tabacco and unbranded ciggies for a tenth of the cost. i used to visit a certain shop in fairfield when i was rolling my own and would get double the tabacco for half the price of a champion pack and it came in wrapped up plastic bag. no questions asked none given.

of course over the years the bloke got stinger and you got less and less tabacco while the price went up and up, mind you this was over a decade ago. back when howard was still PM. funny how actual smokers were slumped with increasing sin taxes back then, we're getting fined for smoking at rain stations, couldn't smoke within so many meters of buildings and had to strike to retain smoko breaks, Yet there was no one championing the little guys "right to smoke" no the talk back shows were awash with filthy smokers and risks of second hand smoke.

yet plain packaging comes in and affects big business, so now everybody champions the "rights" of "the poor" the same "poor" they exploited with this tax for over 100 years (its was introduced at federation for those that are actually interested)

 

[Long Live HFC]

you do realise this whole "white collar" "blue collar" things is a thing of the past yeah? there's plenty of "sit down" jobs which are made of the poor?
in fact statistically your more likely to have less employee rights, benefits and pay as an entry level office worker then most laborer jobs because also get saddled with working unpaid overtime and no paid vacations as your on a salary.

http://www.smh.com.au/small-busines...r-jobs-turning-light-blue-20140903-3eshc.html

In fact given trends in employment market within the next 80 years office workers will account for the majority of this countries poor.

Can someone give me the details on blackmarket tobacco? I like to think of myself as a resourceful fella, who can get his hands on most things legal or otherwise, however I have absolutely no idea where I can get cigarettes from anywhere other than a legit retailer.

must say, interesting points i've never considered before.

 

[JoseMourinho]

I am always cynical about this. I reckon this tax is in there to get the tax necessary for the healthcare they'll need in the future lol.

 

[Seeds]

It is abuse and if taxes go up children will go hungry and normal people will become criminals when they buy black market tobacco. It will hurt the poor and working class, not academics and others who are out of touch.

So you have been shown that smoking rates have dramatically fallen as information and taxes have gone up. But you have ignored those facts and stuck to your view that it's impossible for many to quit. You have been told that it's the workers party who is leading the smoking taxes cause and not the conservatives but have again ignored it and stuck to the view that it's the rich imposing a tax on the poor. do you have any ability to reason at all?

 

[JoseMourinho]

I think quit and variety of other law changes regarding smoking have done a great job at reducing smoking. Plain packaging is very minor considering that many states don't allow you to even show the cigerette packaging in store.

I'd put the smoking rate going down to QUIT and the law changes not to plain packaging and it is a good thing.

There are a few people who don't have the willpower to quit but that is like other people with other drugs.

 

[GreyCrow]

When someone decides to vote for a political party based on their support for or against ''raising cigarette prices'' I just know we are in trouble.