MVP Tommy Boyd - The Grand Final Enigma

[jdz101]

You seem bogged down on his contract. Try letting it go for a minute.

Do you think one mark in a game is acceptable for a plus 200cm player?

Tom Boyd averages 3 a game. For a guy that size under 50 games that is actually reasonably standard considering his peers in his size.

As for your flawed question with a one game sample, why not ask the same question to west coast fans about Nic Nat for his whole career. I'm sure they're still fairly happy with him considering where they picked and what he produces overall after being given a reasonable amount of time to develop.

 

[dogwatch]

Is it possible to defend the deal but also acknowledge that up to now it's been a failure? Because that's where I sit.

We go back in time, I do the deal again- we took a relatively calculated risk- we had to- so far it's been a blob

I think that's where most of us sit.
Well ... perhaps the word "failure" sounds a bit final. Let's say "up to now hasn't yielded any great results".

There was an awful lot of jizzing and rejoicing on this board the day it was announced. (Lots of that South Park image of Randy and his PC.) Most thought it was going to be the day the underDogs struck back and that we would have a ready made star.

It'd be great if after the last couple of years the media and the fans could let drop the fact that he's sitting on the biggest AFL contract ever awarded to a 19yo and instead assess him on face value, but I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. It's always going to be how he measures up against the hype and the size of the contract.

That's his cross (and by extension it's also ours) and we all have to bear it.

His current career trajectory is not all that compelling but it would be fine for a 200cm KPF at say pick #8 and on a contract of $500k a year - nobody would raise an eyebrow. There's still plenty of time to be vindicated, but he needs to start showing a bit more next year.

I'm still hopeful ... but my expectations have been tempered.

 

[Mofra]

Jake lever is a chb, tough, great leader and would have slotted into our back line a year ago.

Consider what we lack and what we are chasing now.

Considering how highly lever is rated now and what our chb propects were at the time, makes sense.

Dal knew what we lacked. Hes hurley just 6 years younger.

Plus, dogs were into toyd anyway, griffin just sped it up.

We were into Wright, from multiple sources.
We have one of the best defensive systems in the AFL and we are well outside the top 8 for F50 efficiency.
We've hardly developed a decent KPF since Jesus was an apprentice chippy.

If we were so desperate for a CHB we would have sold the farm for one instead of Boyd.

 

[dogwatch]

We were into Wright, from multiple sources.
We have one of the best defensive systems in the AFL and we are well outside the top 8 for F50 efficiency.
We've hardly developed a decent KPF since Jesus was an apprentice chippy.

If we were so desperate for a CHB we would have sold the farm for one instead of Boyd.

We still might

 

[Mofra]

We still might

I hope we do - not entirely convinced we can lure him but it's great we are chasing so hard, even if it means Essendon have to pay a little extra to keep him.

 

[dogsfan]

All Toyd has to do is take a few marks and kick a couple of goals in our next premiership and then he's been worth every cent.

And realistically he has got the next 8 years to do that as most would agree with the young talented list we have coming through together and Bevo's passion it is a possibility.

 

[BRWB]

Tom Boyd averages 3 a game. For a guy that size under 50 games that is actually reasonably standard considering his peers in his size.

As for your flawed question with a one game sample, why not ask the same question to west coast fans about Nic Nat for his whole career. I'm sure they're still fairly happy with him considering where they picked and what he produces overall after being given a reasonable amount of time to develop.

Did you just compare a pure ruckman in Nic Nat - a guy who was reported to be late to the game and still learning it when drafted as a ruck to Boyd - a KPF who could ruck a bit and who was seen as a generational KPF when drafted?

Are you seriously suggesting Boyd was recruited to our club to dominate centre bounces and otherwise run around aimlessly and not mark it like Nic Nat?

What a bizarre comparison.

And sorry you are as good as your last game. People were hoping he would dominate an undersized Saints defence. Didn't happen. People say well he rucked don't judge him on his fwd play. Well Hickey his ruck opponent had one of his most influential games.

Likelihood is that Tom wouldn't be playing at many strong clubs as he simply isn't performing at an AFL standard at present.

That we aren't seeing much after nearly three years on a list is troubling. Forget what he is paid or where he was drafted - his performance is still not AFL standard. And on that basis it's hard to see him helping us much this year on current form.

In years to come who knows? But right now he doesn't look like marking the ball and still drops chest marks. And don't kid yourself, the main reason Boyd was recruited, hell the main point of any slow lumbering plus 200cm fwd, is to take marks and kick goals.

6 goals, 18 marks and 39 hit outs from his six games this year is poor, piss poor.

Hawkins and Tom Lynch at the same age as Boyd were averaging over 5 marks a game, Josh Kennedy over 6. Boyd is averaging three marks a game (and less than 7 hit outs). So 3 marks a game is not only s**t, it's s**t in comparison to even a notorious slow developing giant like Hawkins.

 

[ringa5]

POLL .should Boyd take a pay cut.
How about another Poll.Should all those with tall poppy syndrome mind there own business???

 

[boydsno1]

This is how i see it. If Tom Boyd was on any other list in the AFL do people think he would be played in the ruck like he is with us? I honestly reckon that no he wouldn't and would be used as a deep forward.

We haven't played to his strengths and are using him in a role that we hope down the track will improve his football. To the kids credit he has done as asked and to be honest i thought he rucked really well on the weekend. Got hands to the ball first and even had one really nice tap down to Daniel.

He will come good.

 

[boydsno1]

Did you just compare a pure ruckman in Nic Nat - a guy who was reported to be late to the game and still learning it when drafted as a ruck to Boyd - a KPF who could ruck a bit and who was seen as a generational KPF when drafted?

Are you seriously suggesting Boyd was recruited to our club to dominate centre bounces and otherwise run around aimlessly and not mark it like Nic Nat?

What a bizarre comparison.

And sorry you are as good as your last game. People were hoping he would dominate an undersized Saints defence. Didn't happen. People say well he rucked don't judge him on his fwd play. Well Hickey his ruck opponent had one of his most influential games.

Likelihood is that Tom wouldn't be playing at many strong clubs as he simply isn't performing at an AFL standard at present.

That we aren't seeing much after nearly three years on a list is troubling. Forget what he is paid or where he was drafted - his performance is still not AFL standard. And on that basis it's hard to see him helping us much this year on current form.

In years to come who knows? But right now he doesn't look like marking the ball and still drops chest marks. And don't kid yourself, the main reason Boyd was recruited, hell the main point of any slow lumbering plus 200cm fwd, is to take marks and kick goals.

6 goals, 18 marks and 39 hit outs from his six games this year is poor, piss poor.

Hawkins and Tom Lynch at the same age as Boyd were averaging over 5 marks a game, Josh Kennedy over 6. Boyd is averaging three marks a game (and less than 7 hit outs). So 3 marks a game is not only s**t, it's s**t in comparison to even a notorious slow developing giant like Hawkins.

Lynch and Hawkins are paid to kick goals and at around the same games tally Boyd matches up very well if not betters them.

 

[compact72]

Our recruit and draft team have been spot on with everything over last few years, so I trust their decision that Boyd was the right pick

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

Did you just compare a pure ruckman in Nic Nat - a guy who was reported to be late to the game and still learning it when drafted as a ruck to Boyd - a KPF who could ruck a bit and who was seen as a generational KPF when drafted?

Are you seriously suggesting Boyd was recruited to our club to dominate centre bounces and otherwise run around aimlessly and not mark it like Nic Nat?

What a bizarre comparison.

And sorry you are as good as your last game. People were hoping he would dominate an undersized Saints defence. Didn't happen. People say well he rucked don't judge him on his fwd play. Well Hickey his ruck opponent had one of his most influential games.

Likelihood is that Tom wouldn't be playing at many strong clubs as he simply isn't performing at an AFL standard at present.

That we aren't seeing much after nearly three years on a list is troubling. Forget what he is paid or where he was drafted - his performance is still not AFL standard. And on that basis it's hard to see him helping us much this year on current form.

In years to come who knows? But right now he doesn't look like marking the ball and still drops chest marks. And don't kid yourself, the main reason Boyd was recruited, hell the main point of any slow lumbering plus 200cm fwd, is to take marks and kick goals.

6 goals, 18 marks and 39 hit outs from his six games this year is poor, piss poor.

Hawkins and Tom Lynch at the same age as Boyd were averaging over 5 marks a game, Josh Kennedy over 6. Boyd is averaging three marks a game (and less than 7 hit outs). So 3 marks a game is not only s**t, it's s**t in comparison to even a notorious slow developing giant like Hawkins.

this is such a stupid argument. If that was true, we have 1 good player on the team (Bont) and 1 average (Wood). The rest of the team was poor against the Saints

 

[DognBones]

All Toyd has to do is take a few marks and kick a couple of goals in our next premiership and then he's been worth every cent.

And realistically he has got the next 8 years to do that as most would agree with the young talented list we have coming through together and Bevo's passion it is a possibility.

I take your point but what do we do with a player who may make a significant contribution towards a premiership at some time within another 8 year period if his performances aren't good enough to help us get to a Grand Final in the first place? Obviously your 8 year window is only relevant if Boyd's form warrants his selection. We are all hoping for the Boyd surge but I for one become very nervous if I have to look too far into an uncertain future to see it.

 

[Pannalstaroz]

We all acknowledge that Tom's fitness still has a way to go, yet we criticise the s**t out of him for not being dominant when he rucked for 3 quarters.

The shortsightedness worries me. There's a lot of "what have you done for me lately?" So many have preached the long game, but so many here are starting to turn.

Just relax. When it comes, it'll come quickly, but we're not there yet.

 

[Mofra]

This is how i see it. If Tom Boyd was on any other list in the AFL do people think he would be played in the ruck like he is with us? I honestly reckon that no he wouldn't and would be used as a deep forward.

He might provide a chop-out for 10-20% of the time at some clubs, but certainly not at the 40-50% of gametime we use him for.
Unless Bevo is just trying to get him match fit by making him cover more ground?

Personally I see him as a far better KPF prospect than a ruck prospect and want him to spend most of his time forward.

 

[BatteredBulldog]

We all acknowledge that Tom's fitness still has a way to go, yet we criticise the s**t out of him for not being dominant when he rucked for 3 quarters.

The shortsightedness worries me. There's a lot of "what have you done for me lately?" So many have preached the long game, but so many here are starting to turn.

Just relax. When it comes, it'll come quickly, but we're not there yet.

Exactly.

When the deal was announced, most of the posters/ supporters acknowledged that it was a long term strategy and that it may take some time 2-3 years for Boyd to become the player we all know and hope he becomes, yet here we are 18 months wondering why he hasn't become a dominant force.

Like some of the stats showed on here recently show, compared to other similar players (Kennedy, Lynch) at the same stage of their careers, he's not far off.

 

[BatteredBulldog]

He might provide a chop-out for 10-20% of the time at some clubs, but certainly not at the 40-50% of gametime we use him for.
Unless Bevo is just trying to get him match fit by making him cover more ground?

Personally I see him as a far better KPF prospect than a ruck prospect and want him to spend most of his time forward.

I have no doubt that part of his development strategy is to play him in the ruck to improve his tank and to also develop his man on man strength in ruck work around the ground.
As Bev stated in his first year, the clubs expectations are a far cry to the ridiculous expectations from some of the media and also from some supporters.

 

[TBOW]

We all acknowledge that Tom's fitness still has a way to go, yet we criticise the s**t out of him for not being dominant when he rucked for 3 quarters.

The shortsightedness worries me. There's a lot of "what have you done for me lately?" So many have preached the long game, but so many here are starting to turn.

Just relax. When it comes, it'll come quickly, but we're not there yet.

You said it Pan.
I'm more worried about some of our posters than I am about Boyd.

We paid the guy to get him to the club to develop. Not to produce from day 1.

He is developing just fine.

 

[jdz101]

Did you just compare a pure ruckman in Nic Nat - a guy who was reported to be late to the game and still learning it when drafted as a ruck to Boyd - a KPF who could ruck a bit and who was seen as a generational KPF when drafted?

Are you seriously suggesting Boyd was recruited to our club to dominate centre bounces and otherwise run around aimlessly and not mark it like Nic Nat?

What a bizarre comparison.

And sorry you are as good as your last game. People were hoping he would dominate an undersized Saints defence. Didn't happen. People say well he rucked don't judge him on his fwd play. Well Hickey his ruck opponent had one of his most influential games.

Likelihood is that Tom wouldn't be playing at many strong clubs as he simply isn't performing at an AFL standard at present.

That we aren't seeing much after nearly three years on a list is troubling. Forget what he is paid or where he was drafted - his performance is still not AFL standard. And on that basis it's hard to see him helping us much this year on current form.

In years to come who knows? But right now he doesn't look like marking the ball and still drops chest marks. And don't kid yourself, the main reason Boyd was recruited, hell the main point of any slow lumbering plus 200cm fwd, is to take marks and kick goals.

6 goals, 18 marks and 39 hit outs from his six games this year is poor, piss poor.

Hawkins and Tom Lynch at the same age as Boyd were averaging over 5 marks a game, Josh Kennedy over 6. Boyd is averaging three marks a game (and less than 7 hit outs). So 3 marks a game is not only s**t, it's s**t in comparison to even a notorious slow developing giant like Hawkins.

Seeing as you take any opportunity to sink the boot into boyd with ridiculous criticisms of a 30 game player I finally bit on one.

Your point was about being happy about a 200cm player that only takes one mark in a game from a one game sample. I provided one that has pretty much done that his whole career whilst still being a very influential big man for his team. Did I make any remarks about comparing the two as players? No. I was merely debunking your ridiculous point.

Nice work on criticizing my 'comparison' and providing two more equally ridiculous comparisons yourself. Lynch and Josh Kennedy are probably the two best forwards of this generation and hawkins in his first 30 games probably suffered about 3 or 4 losses total. (Total Win % of 75% at geelong during his entire career) Tom Boyd would have also looked pretty good in those cats teams when they were smashing melbourne by 200 points. Lets see how hawkins does when some of those geelong vets retire and things get a bit harder.

 

[JJHunter]

Remind me how old Boyd is again?

How long does it usually take for 2 metre footballers to hit their peak?

Yeah, thought so.

This is neither sided or disagreeing with your post... just explaining a few things

Just know that people who cant let go of the $$ laugh at this sort of post.
In their eyes you just justify the opinion that he was paid too much.
Why pay a guy 1million in his 3rd year when he isn't producing what other 1m players would ultimately.
Why pay a 2metre tall kid that sort of money when he wont produce for 5+ years.
They see $$ around Boyd and that only. And if you read these questions in light of that they are fair reasonable arguments

Lets say we go with your comment and look at another pick 1 slow maturer - Jack Watts.
He is only producing the goods now and showing signs of being an above average player.
And good on him cause he went through huge amounts of pressure....
Just imagine he was being paid 1 million a year during the first 7 years of his career.

People were not patient with him even though he was probably earning around his output.
As it stands there is a guy getting huge amounts of money above his output. Thats what they question.

Without the $$ attached to boyd he just becomes another pick 1 slow to develop.

 

[Mattdougie]

Boyd is an immovable object and it would be near on impossible to trade him to another club unless that club has been on the Bongs all day after a massive night at Pony.

Next year is another million year for him and in the open market he is probably worth 300K ?? So to move him we would have to pay several years of making up his salary and it would be a massive amount(600-700k a year).

He ain't going anywhere so we are stuck with him

 

[LittleG]

So much monday night Quarterbacking going on in this thread. May I point out that it isn't monday night yet, so let's wait before making judgment.
Too many are going too early.

 

[boydsno1]

Massive game for Boyd.

If he can take a few big grabs and kick 4 goals Friday night it will go a long way to getting some pressure off his back and some massive confidence into him.

 

[MJ_Dogs]

Massive game for Boyd.

If he can take a few big grabs and kick 4 goals Friday night it will go a long way to getting some pressure off his back and some massive confidence into him.

Feel like we've been saying this each week lately.

But him not kicking bags isn't his fault. He's been rucking a fair bit and delivery into the fifty has been putrid as usual.

I just want a contest and aggression

 

[doggies ftw]

Can people stop saying "im not sure why people expect him to be a dominant force". I havent seen a single post expecting that. People just expect him to not be useless.