Tom Harley

[CatFan79]

No need to twist anything around. That is a paraphrase if not a direct quote.

Whatever, I'm not gonna argue because its a waste of time..

in any case,

Harley's game was ok but not worthy of a post applauding it...

I liked Harley's overhead marking but at ground level he was shown up a couple of times, Davis looks injured or is really out of form at the moment and to call Sydney's forward line dysfunctional would be generous.

Obviously Harley has a lot of support on here because of his service to the club but he has conceded a lot more goals per game than the rest of the defence, bearing in mind he gets 3rd or 4th best forward. I can't help but think that in the future we may struggle to find a matchup for him.

 

[Copernicus]

The only thing that concerns me about Tom is his kicking. I got to watch the first half live (yay!) and I noticed him turn the ball over by foot at least twice. His hands are solid and of course he's a first class mark but his kicking needs to be improve markedly.

All that said, he's still proving an asset and is generally keeping blokes quiet.

 

[catempire]

]Whatever, I'm not gonna argue because its a waste of time..

in any case,

Harley's game was ok but not worthy of a post applauding it...

I liked Harley's overhead marking but at ground level he was shown up a couple of times, Davis looks injured or is really out of form at the moment and to call Sydney's forward line dysfunctional would be generous.

Obviously Harley has a lot of support on here because of his service to the club but he has conceded a lot more goals per game than the rest of the defence, bearing in mind he gets 3rd or 4th best forward. I can't help but think that in the future we may struggle to find a matchup for him.
__________________

Just rubbish CatFan79. Plenty of people thought it worthy.

Care to back up your claim re goals per game with stats?

 

[CatFan79]

Just rubbish CatFan79. Plenty of people thought it worthy.

Care to back up your claim re goals per game with stats?

The fact that Harley was the lowest rated defender on the day (Champion Data) may prove my point about the weekend, but as I said the love for Harls is obvious. Seriously, are you going to tell me he had a better game than Scarlett, Egan, Mackie, Enright? Do I see appreciation threads for all these guys and they used the ball better, had more of it and were playing on better opponents..

You've probably all been waiting for the goods to come from Harley to prove everyone wrong and I can appreciate here your taking every little bit you can, we all have our favorites.

I saw vision over the break on (I think) "On The Couch" of goals conceded and Harley had 9 or 10 goals from 4 games which isn't terrible but was higher than the rest and he isn't playing a heap of minutes per game...

Why so defensive? Can't I be critical about Harley's form when it isn't that great?

 

[catempire]

The fact that Harley was the lowest rated defender on the day (Champion Data) may prove my point about the weekend, but as I said the love for Harls is obvious. Seriously, are you going to tell me he had a better game than Scarlett, Egan, Mackie, Enright? Do I see appreciation threads for all these guys and they used the ball better, had more of it and were playing on better opponents..

You've probably all been waiting for the goods to come from Harley to prove everyone wrong and I can appreciate here your taking every little bit you can, we all have our favorites.

I saw vision over the break on (I think) "On The Couch" of goals conceded and Harley had 9 or 10 goals from 4 games which isn't terrible but was higher than the rest and he isn't playing a heap of minutes per game...

Why so defensive? Can't I be critical about Harley's form when it isn't that great?

You just can't get credit where credit's due from some people. That's fine and I don't expect anything better.

 

[CatFan79]

You just can't get credit where credit's due from some people. That's fine and I don't expect anything better.

I gave him credit for his marking, but he aint setting the world on fire...

 

[darren forssman]

in marty k's absence i think his contention was that harley should have run into this form via the reserves, not that harley should never play seniors again.

 

[Duskfire]

Harley isn't as good as Scarlet and Egan and so forth true, but he is another tall down back and an excellent mark; in a close game in the dying minutes you can always expect him to step up and take a big strong mark on the last line of defense (just like he did two or three times in that quarter against Sydney.) Not only that, but he is the captain, and obviously they made him captain for a reason.

Lets look at the Eagles midfield; none of them are as good as Judd and Kerr - does that mean they should be dropped? They all still have a role, and the same applies for Geelongs backline.

 

[catempire]

in marty k's absence i think his contention was that harley should have run into this form via the reserves, not that harley should never play seniors again.

In martyk’s absence, I’ll provide a direct quote….

4th June 2007, 22:06

The argument is irrelevant really. Harley will play from now on if he is fit whether we like it or not, and I don't like it. I can accept an argument that we needed an extra tall last night but there wouldn't be another forward line in the league who would require that extra tall.

Harley was beaten by his opponents last night just like he was last year when he was able to play. Its not good enough to bring an underdone player into the most talented list in the AFL when they have a real flag chance. It's just plain wrong, captain or not. Harley will now be a passenger for the remainder of the season if he remains fit.... all because he is captain, NO other reason.

 

[cat in sydney]

in marty k's absence i think his contention was that harley should have run into this form via the reserves, not that harley should never play seniors again.

catempire is right. martyk has never even considered that Harley would return to form, he'd given up on him long ago (some sort of personal agenda/vendetta probably).
Many other clubs would bring their captain back in before form. Why did it take so long for Sydney to drop Hall? Because your captain out there playing is significant for the rest of the team.
Sure, Harley wasn't in top form, but what he brought to the team was greater than what his lack of form took away (highlighted by the fact that we haven't lost a game since he has returned, so his form hasn't robbed the team in any way).

 

[GeeCat]

Given where he stands from a fitness/recent experience point of view, the errors he made were somewhat made up for those solid grabs and such. It's been nice watching him play himself into some form and legitimately contribute to side.

 

[Stripey PJs]

The fact that Harley was the lowest rated defender on the day (Champion Data) may prove my point about the weekend, but as I said the love for Harls is obvious. Seriously, are you going to tell me he had a better game than Scarlett, Egan, Mackie, Enright? Do I see appreciation threads for all these guys and they used the ball better...
I saw vision over the break on (I think) "On The Couch" of goals conceded and Harley had 9 or 10 goals from 4 games which isn't terrible but was higher than the rest and he isn't playing a heap of minutes per game...

Deja vu.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7975646#post7975646

Jester and I've already responded to this argument.

I'm surprised by what you saw on On The Couch, and if you read my response in that thread you'll understand why. Can you remember the 9 or 10 goals, or who they mentioned kicked them? I've yet to watch the Sydney game so can't confirm who Harley stood, but he DID play 95% of the match.

Forssman, Martyk said "keep him around but don't play him."
Only two days ago.

 

[winty]

His absence has been quite noticeable the last 4-5 weeks.!!

And Renegade's anti-Thompson sentiments have been lacking for a few months now!

 

[Stripey PJs]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7975646#post7975646

Jester and I've already responded to this argument.

I'm surprised by what you saw on On The Couch, and if you read my response in that thread you'll understand why. Can you remember the 9 or 10 goals, or who they mentioned kicked them? I've yet to watch the Sydney game so can't confirm who Harley stood, but he DID play 95% of the match.

Forssman, Martyk said "keep him around but don't play him."
Only two days ago.

Now having watched the game, I'll clarify my post.

Harley competently ran with Jude Bolton in the third quarter, and spent the other three alternating between D***s and Vogels. Harley was not responsible for either of their goals, Ottens having pushed D***s in the back and a 'senior moment' from Dasher contributing to the latter's.

Same end result: no goals conceded by Harley. Still a grand total of 2 against (both by Kenny McGregor) in his four games since returning from injury. 3 clean sheets.

He did make a number of errors in the first half, partly through his own stupidity, partly through Chamberlain's exuberant officiating. I winced as Vogels ran him down from behind, winced again as he kicked the pill down the throat of D***s. Twice he was saved by Sydney's inaccuracy. But Harley continued to give 100%, never dropping his head, even while clumsily racking up the clangers. He was seemingly at every defensive contest, crashing bodies or slyly fisting the ball away, and was rewarded as the game progressed, doing very little wrong in the second half, doing an awful lot right.

 

[CatFan79]

Now having watched the game, I'll clarify my post.

Harley competently ran with Jude Bolton in the third quarter, and spent the other three alternating between D***s and Vogels. Harley was not responsible for either of their goals, Ottens having pushed D***s in the back and a 'senior moment' from Dasher contributing to the latter's.

Same end result: no goals conceded by Harley. Still a grand total of 2 against (both by Kenny McGregor) in his four games since returning from injury. 3 clean sheets.

He did make a number of errors in the first half, partly through his own stupidity, partly through Chamberlain's exuberant officiating. I winced as Vogels ran him down from behind, winced again as he kicked the pill down the throat of D***s. Twice he was saved by Sydney's inaccuracy. But Harley continued to give 100%, never dropping his head, even while clumsily racking up the clangers. He was seemingly at every defensive contest, crashing bodies or slyly fisting the ball away, and was rewarded as the game progressed, doing very little wrong in the second half, doing an awful lot right.

Regardless of what anyone says, Harley has not cemented a spot in this team based on form and his position should be scrutinized for every game based on match-ups. The fact that he's captain probably prevents this from occurring.

He is taking the left-over forwards at the moment as Egan, Scarlett and Mackie get 1, 2 and 3.

I have nothing against Harley but I'm not going to look at his position through rose coloured glasses like many on here clearly are.

 

[Cattery]

Now having watched the game, I'll clarify my post.

Harley competently ran with Jude Bolton in the third quarter, and spent the other three alternating between D***s and Vogels. Harley was not responsible for either of their goals, Ottens having pushed D***s in the back and a 'senior moment' from Dasher contributing to the latter's.

Same end result: no goals conceded by Harley. Still a grand total of 2 against (both by Kenny McGregor) in his four games since returning from injury. 3 clean sheets.

He did make a number of errors in the first half, partly through his own stupidity, partly through Chamberlain's exuberant officiating. I winced as Vogels ran him down from behind, winced again as he kicked the pill down the throat of D***s. Twice he was saved by Sydney's inaccuracy. But Harley continued to give 100%, never dropping his head, even while clumsily racking up the clangers. He was seemingly at every defensive contest, crashing bodies or slyly fisting the ball away, and was rewarded as the game progressed, doing very little wrong in the second half, doing an awful lot right.

Think you have to look at more then stats or goals conceded when evaluating someone; it's been more luck then anything else that he hasn't given up more goals the last few matches, made some bad blunders in nearly every match since his return, two of which as you point out could have very easily resulted in goals to Sydney at the weekend.

Worries me that he could be the weak link in a very tight defence, doesn't have really clean hands when the balls on the ground and his decision making and disposal are suspect at times.
Has his strengths e.g. marking/spoiling, leadership, but of all the players down back he's the one who worries me the most.

 

[darren forssman]

In martyk’s absence, I’ll provide a direct quote….

4th June 2007, 22:06

yeah, but did marty k mean not fit?

keybaord erors aretn hard make

 

[catempire]

meh.

I think it's pretty obvious what martyk means.

 

[Stripey PJs]

Think you have to look at more then stats or goals conceded when evaluating someone; it's been more luck then anything else that he hasn't given up more goals the last few matches, made some bad blunders in nearly every match since his return, two of which as you point out could have very easily resulted in goals to Sydney at the weekend.

Worries me that he could be the weak link in a very tight defence, doesn't have really clean hands when the balls on the ground and his decision making and disposal are suspect at times.
Has his strengths e.g. marking/spoiling, leadership, but of all the players down back he's the one who worries me the most.

Cattery, I was responding to Martyk and Catfan79's assertion that Harley is leaking more goals than anyone else. I'm sure it wasn't their intention to mislead, having seen the stat on a television program, but it's one that simply isn't true. There's no such excuse for spuriously arguing Harley "isn't playing a heap of minutes per game," unless CF79's drawing a comparison with Test cricket. Tommy played 72% of his return match against the Saints after missing 8 weeks, and has played 90% or more since.

Marty can't accept Harley as anything other than a key-position defender, and subsequently sees his inclusion as unbalancing the side. But Harley is more than that, and as he showed when tagging Bolton he isn't uselessly bench-warming in the absence of a third KPF.

You're worried about his disposal, me too. Always have, even in his glory days. But Harley's bread and butter is halting attacks, and in this category he's got the wood over anyone who would come in to replace him.

Those last two paragraphs explain why I'm optimistic about Harley's chances, despite the doubts that do exist. I've previously posted my concerns about the accountability of Geelong's small defenders. Whenever we have lost recently, it's invariably been from the boots of the opposition's smaller forwards. Josh Hunt, however impressive he is offensively, could not stop the leakage. Now Mark Ricciuto, Nick Davis, Ash McGrath, three players who could well have hurt us in the past, have all been contained up forward by Harley. Is Harley, working in tandem with Enright, the short-term answer? Will he be able to keep it up, to justify his place against teams without the standard 2-3 tall forwards?

I'll be watching with interest.

 

[Cattery]

Cattery, I was responding to Martyk and Catfan79's assertion that Harley is leaking more goals than anyone else. I'm sure it wasn't their intention to mislead, having seen the stat on a television program, but it's one that simply isn't true. There's no such excuse for spuriously arguing Harley "isn't playing a heap of minutes per game," unless CF79's drawing a comparison with Test cricket. Tommy played 72% of his return match against the Saints after missing 8 weeks, and has played 90% or more since.

Marty can't accept Harley as anything other than a key-position defender, and subsequently sees his inclusion as unbalancing the side. But Harley is more than that, and as he showed when tagging Bolton he isn't uselessly bench-warming in the absence of a third KPF.

You're worried about his disposal, me too. Always have, even in his glory days. But Harley's bread and butter is halting attacks, and in this category he's got the wood over anyone who would come in to replace him.

Those last two paragraphs explain why I'm optimistic about Harley's chances, despite the doubts that do exist. I've previously posted my concerns about the accountability of Geelong's small defenders. Whenever we have lost recently, it's invariably been from the boots of the opposition's smaller forwards. Josh Hunt, however impressive he is offensively, could not stop the leakage. Now Mark Ricciuto, Nick Davis, Ash McGrath, three players who could well have hurt us in the past, have all been contained up forward by Harley. Is Harley, working in tandem with Enright, the short-term answer? Will he be able to keep it up, to justify his place against teams without the standard 2-3 tall forwards?

I'll be watching with interest.

Fair enough when you put it in that context.

I saw that stat myself that's been mentioned, think it was nine goals conceded in four games, which was high compared to the other defenders, but when you take into account that almost half of those came in round one he hasn't done to badly in that area since his return to the side.

Personally I thought he was rushed back into the side to quickly, but that's water under the bridge now, and as Captain and one of our key players he was always coming back sooner rather then later anyway.
Also expressed concern at the time that we may be overloading the defence with to many taller type players, but it doesn't seem to have caused to many problems so far, and as you point out he [ Harley ] can play on the smaller forwards quite adequately.

Been a good player for us over a number of years, and certainly isn't "dead wood" as I've seem him described. Guess we'll just have to live with his occasional "brain fade" or poor disposal, as he brings a lot of positives to the side with his excellent marking and spoiling, plus "if" he can stay fit he's only going to get better you would think.