Analysis Tom Hawkins - clearly not insignificant !

[PhatBoy]

Still find it difficult to fathom that anyone ever questioned Hawkins' importance to this team.

Here's a list of goal kickers from 2012 onwards:

Franklin - 340
Kennedy - 308
Jack Riewoldt - 287
Hawkins - 283
Betts - 268
Gunston - 251
Breust - 242
Roughead - 240
Cameron - 240
Nick Riewoldt - 220

The only one who would theoretically leapfrog him is Roughead if he didn't miss a lot of footy, though even that would dilute the data of Breust and Gunston.

Every single one of those players is indispensable in his own way to their respective teams. Can't see a single reason as to why Hawkins wouldn't be in the same boat. And if last night was any indicator he could be headed for career best sort of territory.

All hail the Hawk.

 

[PhatBoy]

And the point I forgot to add was that scoreboard impact alone makes him elite. What he does for the rest of the front half of the field is another thing altogether. Gives off plenty of goals and brings other players into the game.

 

[Go Hoops]

Having the pill dropped on your head all the time while contesting with 2 or 3 opponents doesn't help either. Hawk gets much unwarranted criticism.

 

[scottydeewah]

This was always a stupid thread, started by stupid people, saying stupid things. Bloke is a gun, almost never misses games and plays well week in week out. So many teams would kill for a player like Hawkins. Our main problem is that we haven't been able to find him a reliable second fiddle - and not through lack of trying. Combine this with some slow ball movement, and lack of reliable quality F50 entry leaves our forward setup not looking the best sometimes.

It is one thing to sit there and piss and moan about Hawkins, but there have been ZERO credible alternate forward line setups that don't include him. Sure there are plenty of gun forwards in the league, Kennedy, Jackyboy, Saint Nick, TLynch, etc. but we can't have any of them so comparing them to Hawkins isn't even that helpful!

This thread should be closed.

 

[HellasOle]

If we want a second tall go for Gunston next trad period

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Our main problem is that we haven't been able to find him a reliable second fiddle - and not through lack of trying.

That and we've been playing him slightly out of position. Play him high half-forward and nobody can crowd him in the open spaces.

 

[Seeds]

If we want a second tall go for Gunston next trad period

Uh no. We need a key position player can take contested marks. He is a natural third tall who has benefited enormously from the hawks elite kicking and ability to drop the eyes and chip it 15 metres. Our mids don't have that deftness. Would be wasted at Geelong.

 

[CatsDoItBetter]

Uh no. We need a key position player can take contested marks. He is a natural third tall who has benefited enormously from the hawks elite kicking and ability to drop the eyes and chip it 15 metres. Our mids don't have that deftness. Would be wasted at Geelong.

So do you think he and Hawks other smaller forwards will decline? They've lost Mitchell, Hill and Lewis and Hodge and Burgyone will probably go at the end of this year. That's a lot of their elite kicking players.

 

[Bobby_]

Still find it difficult to fathom that anyone ever questioned Hawkins' importance to this team.

Here's a list of goal kickers from 2012 onwards:

Franklin - 340
Kennedy - 308
Jack Riewoldt - 287
Hawkins - 283
Betts - 268
Gunston - 251
Breust - 242
Roughead - 240
Cameron - 240
Nick Riewoldt - 220

The only one who would theoretically leapfrog him is Roughead if he didn't miss a lot of footy, though even that would dilute the data of Breust and Gunston.

Every single one of those players is indispensable in his own way to their respective teams. Can't see a single reason as to why Hawkins wouldn't be in the same boat. And if last night was any indicator he could be headed for career best sort of territory.

All hail the Hawk.

The problem for Hawkins is that once finals footy starts, if he is not 'on' early, or the delivery is not good, he's essentially negated right out of the contest.
Unlike every single other player on that list, he cannot shift up the ground to get involved and help influence a contest. He's stuck in one position and because of this, his finals performances have left a lot to be desired.
It's not as though he's the size of Jeremy Cameron or Jarryd Roughead either, he stands close to 2 metres tall and weighs over 110kg's.
He has the advantage literally every single time he steps out onto the field.

He has played in sixteen finals, honestly, how many of them can you really say were good?
I count about four of them, 2011 PF & GF, 2014 SF and that's it.

He may only have a handful of opportunities left to improve on his post season record and until he does, Tom Hawkins will not get the respect you want for him.
Roughead use to cop it for not delivering in finals but he turned all that around in his later 20's.

 

[cats_09]

The problem for Hawkins is that once finals footy starts, if he is not 'on' early, or the delivery is not good, he's essentially negated right out of the contest.
Unlike every single other player on that list, he cannot shift up the ground to get involved and help influence a contest. He's stuck in one position and because of this, his finals performances have left a lot to be desired.
It's not as though he's the size of Jeremy Cameron or Jarryd Roughead either, he stands close to 2 metres tall and weighs over 110kg's.
He has the advantage literally every single time he steps out onto the field.

He has played in sixteen finals, honestly, how many of them can you really say were good?
I count about four of them, 2011 PF & GF, 2014 SF and that's it.

He may only have a handful of opportunities left to improve on his post season record and until he does, Tom Hawkins will not get the respect you want for him.
Roughead use to cop it for not delivering in finals but he turned all that around in his later 20's.

It's pretty short sighted to suggest that Hawkins can only play one position - didn't you watch last nights match where he spent most of the game playing as a high half forward, collecting plenty of possessions up the field. Rarely was Hawkins our deepest forward, especially over the first 3 quarters when Taylor was also in the forward line. He seemed to be involved up the ground more than a few times last night, and over his career he looks best when playing more of the CHF role and getting involved up the ground.

If as you claim Hawkins is the only player on that list of forwards who can only play one position, can you explain what other positions Kennedy, Jack Reiwoldt or Cameron successfully play? Even Betts best position is as a the small forward playing inside the 50, and you don't often see him spending extended time playing through the midfield.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

The problem for Hawkins is that once finals footy starts, if he is not 'on' early, or the delivery is not good, he's essentially negated right out of the contest.
Unlike every single other player on that list, he cannot shift up the ground to get involved and help influence a contest. He's stuck in one position and because of this, his finals performances have left a lot to be desired.
It's not as though he's the size of Jeremy Cameron or Jarryd Roughead either, he stands close to 2 metres tall and weighs over 110kg's.
He has the advantage literally every single time he steps out onto the field.

He has played in sixteen finals, honestly, how many of them can you really say were good?
I count about four of them, 2011 PF & GF, 2014 SF and that's it.

He may only have a handful of opportunities left to improve on his post season record and until he does, Tom Hawkins will not get the respect you want for him.
Roughead use to cop it for not delivering in finals but he turned all that around in his later 20's.

2009 QF (or PF, vs Pies anyway), 2009 GF, 2011 QF, 2011 PF, 2011 GF, 2014 SF.
I'm sure hes been good in others but I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

And the point I forgot to add was that scoreboard impact alone makes him elite. What he does for the rest of the front half of the field is another thing altogether. Gives off plenty of goals and brings other players into the game.

Yep, he is extremely clever with the use of his body - great at holding the opposition off the ball and providing little taps and knock ons to our advantage.

He was also massively impeded throughout 2013 with his back issues, so there's no doubt his goal tally since 2012 would be even higher if not for that.

 

[MacStradbroke]

The problem for Hawkins is that once finals footy starts, if he is not 'on' early, or the delivery is not good, he's essentially negated right out of the contest.
Unlike every single other player on that list, he cannot shift up the ground to get involved and help influence a contest. He's stuck in one position and because of this, his finals performances have left a lot to be desired.
It's not as though he's the size of Jeremy Cameron or Jarryd Roughead either, he stands close to 2 metres tall and weighs over 110kg's.
He has the advantage literally every single time he steps out onto the field.

He has played in sixteen finals, honestly, how many of them can you really say were good?
I count about four of them, 2011 PF & GF, 2014 SF and that's it.

He may only have a handful of opportunities left to improve on his post season record and until he does, Tom Hawkins will not get the respect you want for him.
Roughead use to cop it for not delivering in finals but he turned all that around in his later 20's.

Nearly single handedly won us the 2011 Grannie from where I was seated. That alone will forever have him all the respect he ever needs off me!

 

[Bobby_]

It's pretty short sighted to suggest that Hawkins can only play one position - didn't you watch last nights match where he spent most of the game playing as a high half forward, collecting plenty of possessions up the field. Rarely was Hawkins our deepest forward, especially over the first 3 quarters when Taylor was also in the forward line. He seemed to be involved up the ground more than a few times last night, and over his career he looks best when playing more of the CHF role and getting involved up the ground.

If as you claim Hawkins is the only player on that list of forwards who can only play one position, can you explain what other positions Kennedy, Jack Reiwoldt or Cameron successfully play? Even Betts best position is as a the small forward playing inside the 50, and you don't often see him spending extended time playing through the midfield.

Short sighted?
You are using one game to counter argue my opinion of Hawkins being a one position footballer.
Surely that's the very definition of short sightedness?
If Hawkins manages to play as he did on Sunday for the rest of the year, ok fine, he's extended his repertoire.

As for Kennedy and Riewoldt, I really don't want to insult your intelligence like others can but come on, those guys have evolved their game and are now causing others (such as Hawkins) to follow their lead and become more than just a stay at home forwards.
Jack was rarely playing out of the square at all last year while Kennedy averages over 15km per game.
Eddie Betts should not be in the discussion. He's 5ft'6 and less than 75kg's in weight. He has absolutely no need to evolve his game as he will never have to contend with gorilla's like key forwards do throughout their entire careers.

2009 QF (or PF, vs Pies anyway), 2009 GF, 2011 QF, 2011 PF, 2011 GF, 2014 SF.
I'm sure hes been good in others but I can't remember off the top of my head.

I already said the 2011 prelim and grannie so why even bother repeating myself.
All those other finals, he's been inconsistent. I don't even want to bring up his earlier finals as he was young and inexperienced and we should really give most newbies the benefit of the doubt (Jeremy Cameron who at least booted 4 in one his two finals).

I refer to when he became 'elite' post 2011 and was unable to take games by the scruff of their neck during September.
Billy Brownless gets a bad rap for his inability to lift in finals but his record completely puts Hawkins to shame as genuine power forwards of their time.

Listing the 2009 grand final is comical Mad Hatter.
8 touches, 2 marks and 2 goals (one which hit the post) and you are telling me he was good in this game?
You must have been absolutely speechless after Josh Kennedy's elimination final against the Doggies last year.

 

[Daniel McL]

Hawkins already looks SO much better playing more up the field at times + leading to the ball carrier more, also looks a bit leaner too which is great.

Reckon Hawk is in for a 60+ goal season, also Menz for a 40+ goal season (barring injuries and management especially for Menz).

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Short sighted?
You are using one game to counter argue my opinion of Hawkins being a one position footballer.
Surely that's the very definition of short sightedness?
If Hawkins manages to play as he did on Sunday for the rest of the year, ok fine, he's extended his repertoire.

As for Kennedy and Riewoldt, I really don't want to insult your intelligence like others can but come on, those guys have evolved their game and are now causing others (such as Hawkins) to follow their lead and become more than just a stay at home forwards.
Jack was rarely playing out of the square at all last year while Kennedy averages over 15km per game.
Eddie Betts should not be in the discussion. He's 5ft'6 and less than 75kg's in weight. He has absolutely no need to evolve his game as he will never have to contend with gorilla's like key forwards do throughout their entire careers.



I already said the 2011 prelim and grannie so why even bother repeating myself.
All those other finals, he's been inconsistent. I don't even want to bring up his earlier finals as he was young and inexperienced and we should really give most newbies the benefit of the doubt (Jeremy Cameron who at least booted 4 in one his two finals).

I refer to when he became 'elite' post 2011 and was unable to take games by the scruff of their neck during September.
Billy Brownless gets a bad rap for his inability to lift in finals but his record completely puts Hawkins to shame as genuine power forwards of their time.

Listing the 2009 grand final is comical Mad Hatter.
8 touches, 2 marks and 2 goals (one which hit the post) and you are telling me he was good in this game?
You must have been absolutely speechless after Josh Kennedy's elimination final against the Doggies last year.

Just on Kennedy and Riewoldt "evolving" their games.

Pretty sure the coaches decide that depending on their effectiveness in their current position and whether there is suitable players to reshuffle for a new game plan. On Saturday Hawkins "evolved" pretty quick, didn't he?

As for his finals performances, I don't know of a key forward - including the great Carey - who has been overly consistent in their careers. There is probably a reason for that. And I think we both know what that is. If they can shine a couple of times, they are worth their weight in gold. The other times we just hope that one of the unmanned smaller mids gets enough goals.

 

[Bobby_]

Just on Kennedy and Riewoldt "evolving" their games.

Pretty sure the coaches decide that depending on their effectiveness in their current position and whether there is suitable players to reshuffle for a new game plan. On Saturday Hawkins "evolved" pretty quick, didn't he?

As for his finals performances, I don't know of a key forward - including the great Carey - who has been overly consistent in their careers. There is probably a reason for that. And I think we both know what that is. If they can shine a couple of times, they are worth their weight in gold. The other times we just hope that one of the unmanned smaller mids gets enough goals.

Gunston has been pretty consistent in finals
16 disposals, 5½ marks, 2½ goals.

Nick Riewoldt has been consistent
16 disposals, 8½ marks, 2½ goals.

His brother Jack;
12 disposals, 7 marks, 2½ goals.

Little man Betts;
10½ disposals, 3 marks, 2½ goals.

I mean seriously, Tom is probably the only forward out of that lot mentioned by PhatBoy who has managed less than 4½ marks and 1½ goals per game. Those are pretty poor statistics for any key forward playing in a fairly decent side.

 

[Bobby_]

In order for Tom to even match those guys, he'd have to manage 24 goals in three finals this year.

 

[Generalissimo]

He definitely looked more mobile. Maybe with Taylor forward as well he didn't always have three little purple shits hanging off his arms all the time.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Gunston has been pretty consistent in finals
16 disposals, 5½ marks, 2½ goals.

Nick Riewoldt has been consistent
16 disposals, 8½ marks, 2½ goals.

His brother Jack;
12 disposals, 7 marks, 2½ goals.

Little man Betts;
10½ disposals, 3 marks, 2½ goals.

I mean seriously, Tom is probably the only forward out of that lot mentioned by PhatBoy who has managed less than 4½ marks and 1½ goals per game. Those are pretty poor statistics for any key forward playing in a fairly decent side.

I was thinking more the classic key forward. Carey, Hall. Two key players who played GFs.

 

[Vdubs]

Nearly single handedly won us the 2011 Grannie from where I was seated. That alone will forever have him all the respect he ever needs off me!

Ditto, and add CS .

 

[kidkenobi]

regardless of how good or otherwise you think Hawkins is, where would we be without him? Since JPod left he's pretty much had to hold down the forward line himself and has averaged 56 goals and 17 goal assists per year over the last 5 years

our game style hasn't been super helpful to him for years but he does the best he can, especially considering the modern game doesn't particularly suit guys of his stature as much as it use to in the past. he's still a big asset to this team

 

[SJ]

regardless of how good or otherwise you think Hawkins is, where would we be without him? Since JPod left he's pretty much had to hold down the forward line himself and has averaged 56 goals and 17 goal assists per year over the last 5 years

our game style hasn't been super helpful to him for years but he does the best he can, especially considering the modern game doesn't particularly suit guys of his stature as much as it use to in the past. he's still a big asset to this team

Yeah we'd be stuffed without him.

I guess where most of the criticism has come is that in the past few years some people feel that he could have done a few small things to play better (even given his own limitations).

 

[Turbocat]

Yeah we'd be stuffed without him.

I guess where most of the criticism has come is that in the past few years some people feel that he could have done a few small things to play better (even given his own limitations).

I think its natural to underestimate the subtle , perhaps even the less than rampant . With Hawk , we really would know what he brings till he is gone. I think it probably compares to the loss of Ottens.

 

[Partridge]

Yeah we'd be stuffed without him.

I guess where most of the criticism has come is that in the past few years some people feel that he could have done a few small things to play better (even given his own limitations).

I think he's still - by far - our most important player. As good as Dangerfield and Selwood are, we have other midfielders. It would hurt losing either, but we'd cope to an extent. But losing Hawkins would be much worse, as we have absolutely no backup. As Taylor's performance underlined Sunday night.