Barrels
Often Imitated, Never Bettered.
- Apr 25, 2013
- 20,687
- 56,899
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
- Other Teams
- Cleveland Guardians, Cleveland Cavs
Tom Hickey 'managed'
- Thread starter Paratus78
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Billys ability to do tap ruckwork concerns me. Excited to see him dump some cats into the the turf though.
I love how if you give a critique of someone from our club that isn't positive and blowing smoke up their ass you have "an agenda" or you're a "hater", according to some! It's bloody hilarious! All these sort of discussions would be going on in match-committee as well and they probably get heated, as I'm sure they also don't all agree with everything each other says, but does that mean if someone in there makes a case for why someone should be dropped- by pointing out their weaknesses/shortcomings- they too are a "hater!? 
This puts us on the back foot immediately at stoppage after stoppage and given that this is exactly what I said in the preseason I was concerned might happen (now that going 3rd-up is banned) I'm not at all surprised that the club have made this move, if they feel Billy is going OK.
It might not be what some want to hear- just as it wasn't what many wanted to hear when I raised the idea of trading McEvoy about half way through his last year with us, because of his deficiencies- but the simple fact is that at 201cm, Tom is now very much on the short side for the ruck and with that being the case, you need to have something else really going for you if you want to be really competitive against the best in that role and unfortunately he is also stick-thin, which means he is going to get regularly manhandled/ragdolled. He has a good leap (which makes him OK at centre bounces), but it's not Nic Nat/Paddy Ryder type good, so all that combined he just doesn't really have much going for him at the boundary throw-ins, or around the ground ball-up's- which of course would be why we went 3rd-up so much last year (about 32% of our hitouts were by those going 3rd-up!).
I've been a big fan of Tom over the journey and loved so much of what he did last year, but that doesn't mean I'm going to close my eyes to what I see going on, or pretend that at 201cm, very thin and without extraordinary ruck craft or leap he is likely to be really competitive with those who are either much taller, stronger, both, or simply better than him in the ruck contests. Last year we could get away with that because we could go 3rd-up and cover for these shortcomings Tom had in the around-the-ground ruck contests and he could make an impact outside of these contests, but the rule change has made everything different and his ruck deficiencies are being regularly exposed and we're paying a price for it.
Sure our midfield aren't great, but they're on the back foot from the get-go if whoever Tom is rucking against is killing him and putting it on a platter for his midfield.
Which is why I said that if he's going to make it if they continue to not allow going 3rd-up I believe he needs to start having the types of games he had against Sydney in the JLT far more often (high disposals or clearances, etc, like a Stef Martin), as I don't see him suddenly growing 7 or 8cm, adding 10kg without losing all his mobility/agility, getting a bigger leap all of a sudden, or improving his ruck craft so much that it overcomes all these other deficiencies.
You may see this as "harsh", but that doesn't mean it's not true, as much as we might not want it to be this way.
Well I disagree. Not sure if you've been to all our home games, but I have and I've sat on the wing on level 3 and had a great view of so many of Tom's ruck contests and he's been getting regularly mandandled/ragdolled and badly beaten in a hell of a lot of them and this is enabling whoever he's rucking against in these instances to put the ball on a platter for their midfield. Not every single time, but way too much.
This puts us on the back foot immediately at stoppage after stoppage and given that this is exactly what I said in the preseason I was concerned might happen (now that going 3rd-up is banned) I'm not at all surprised that the club have made this move, if they feel Billy is going OK.
It might not be what some want to hear- just as it wasn't what many wanted to hear when I raised the idea of trading McEvoy about half way through his last year with us, because of his deficiencies- but the simple fact is that at 201cm, Tom is now very much on the short side for the ruck and with that being the case, you need to have something else really going for you if you want to be really competitive against the best in that role and unfortunately he is also stick-thin, which means he is going to get regularly manhandled/ragdolled. He has a good leap (which makes him OK at centre bounces), but it's not Nic Nat/Paddy Ryder type good, so all that combined he just doesn't really have much going for him at the boundary throw-ins, or around the ground ball-up's- which of course would be why we went 3rd-up so much last year (about 32% of our hitouts were by those going 3rd-up!).
I've been a big fan of Tom over the journey and loved so much of what he did last year, but that doesn't mean I'm going to close my eyes to what I see going on, or pretend that at 201cm, very thin and without extraordinary ruck craft or leap he is likely to be really competitive with those who are either much taller, stronger, both, or simply better than him in the ruck contests. Last year we could get away with that because we could go 3rd-up and cover for these shortcomings Tom had in the around-the-ground ruck contests and he could make an impact outside of these contests, but the rule change has made everything different and his ruck deficiencies are being regularly exposed and we're paying a price for it.
Sure our midfield aren't great, but they're on the back foot from the get-go if whoever Tom is rucking against is killing him and putting it on a platter for his midfield.
Which is why I said that if he's going to make it if they continue to not allow going 3rd-up I believe he needs to start having the types of games he had against Sydney in the JLT far more often (high disposals or clearances, etc, like a Stef Martin), as I don't see him suddenly growing 7 or 8cm, adding 10kg without losing all his mobility/agility, getting a bigger leap all of a sudden, or improving his ruck craft so much that it overcomes all these other deficiencies.
You may see this as "harsh", but that doesn't mean it's not true, as much as we might not want it to be this way.
Last edited:
Lol.
When its comes to the great " Longer Vs Hickey" debate i gotta admit i lean slightly towards Billy. And at only 23 he is at about that age to really start improving for a ruck. An exciting prospect IMO.
For the record i rate them both and as long as whoever is in the team is performing im not overly fussed who it is. Hickey has a huge ceiling of improvement as well i think.
But theres just something about Billy i like.
He has a big dopey puppy dog look in his eyes.
Hickey has a crazy serial killer look in his eyes.
I'll take dopey over serial killer anyday
Yeah, you are correct. Obvious issue there.
Third man up rule
snap
StCicatriz
Brownlow Medallist
- Aug 3, 2016
- 28,291
- 61,598
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
I read them. Pretty informative
StCicatriz
Brownlow Medallist
- Aug 3, 2016
- 28,291
- 61,598
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Kudos for getting it
Easily better last year when we could cover for his obvious deficiencies by going 3rd-up around the ground (which we did more than possibly any other team), but what about this year, now that we're not able to any more?
It's made a huge difference and if he's only going to be averaging 12 disposals per game (which is only 3 more than Billy did when he was only 22yo) and is going to be giving away 3 free kicks per game, surely you realise the gap has probably narrowed significantly? Billy is also only just now coming into that age where those who play ruck tend to really blossom, so there's every chance he'll be much better than he was at 22yo if he gets a good run at it.
I don't. Have you not read what he's been saying about those who have been making a case for why Hick might have been in trouble in recent days, of which I've been as strong as anyone, if not more so? He's been laying into them like he did all those he thought were "melting" during our last match, just because he doesn't agree with their opinion. It was also pretty clear that he wasn't joking when he went on that rant in response to one of my posts re Billy on Thursday.Edit: Also I think Joffa is just baiting you ARR and it's pretty funny
Last edited:
Hickey was our best player against the Eagles this year. Was in our top 3 in half a dozen games last year. Has Billy ever made the best players in any game of AFL or even VFL football?
Serious question.
Sent from my SM-T210 using Tapatalk
Serious question.
Sent from my SM-T210 using Tapatalk
Well he was named Sandy's best for their VFL final last year and 3rd-best on the weekend, so not only has he done it at VFL level, but he's done it in his last two official games at VFL level. I'm sure they're not the only times though.
More importantly he had the following game at AFL level at just 22yo: 51 hitouts, 20 disposals (15 contested), 5 tackles, 4 clearances, 3 contested marks. Pretty sure he was one of our very best (in a losing team) that day. It was a real eye-opener of a game.
Billy also had an 18 disposal, 35 hitout, 8 mark, 4 tackle, 1 contested mark game and a 47 hitout, 12 disposal, 5 clearance, 1 contested mark game that year and again, they were at 22yo, whereas Tom was 25yo last year and is this year 26yo, or about to be, so comparing someone who is 25/26 yo with someone who we last saw at AFL level at 22 is not really fair.
The issue is not necessarily what they do around the ground though, as it was Tom's stoppage work that Richo said was the issue and which I've been saying is the issue. He's been getting hammered in there a lot of the time so far this year and it's really costing us.
The club would see them going head-to-head all the time on the track and in match-sim and so-on, so they presumably believe that Billy is better in these contests than Tom and as such want to see if an improved competitiveness in this area makes up for the difference there might be in what they'll do outside of those contests.
- Mar 5, 2016
- 791
- 2,442
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
He was pretty aggressive in the game-day threads, I'll give you that. I think the last few posts he's been fooling around though. That being said, I've had a few tiffs with him too so I'm not going to stop you from giving him trouble.
With Hickey, I think it's a case of seeing what you want to see - and I say this in the nicest possible way. Purely from a statistical perspective, he's averaging more hitouts, more clearances, more tackles and more inside 50s than last year, where he was highly lauded. In fact I remember a thread popping up about him breaking our all time hitout record too last year and he's currently on track to beating that! Yes, he is averaging 12 disposals this year compared to 13 last year but honestly, if you guys were fine with 13 in 2016 I can't see how 12 is suddenly such a big problem.
For me, the third-man rule is a nice little way to criticise him but I don't think the argument holds much merit. We all rave about Acres running through the centre square bombing the ball to Roo or Ross doing the same against the Lions (even Dunstan had such moments) but guess who was feeding them the ball on the platter? Longer, on the other hand, was criticised by Eddie McGuire for doing the same thing at every stoppage. "Brings his left hand across his hip at all times" - I'm paraphrasing but if Eddie can see the problem, then I think AFL coaches would've as well. He may have improved since then, but we can't say for sure.
We also say that Bruce in the ruck is an issue, since the teams tends to lose a lot of momentum when he goes to contend stoppages. One, that tells me that Hickey must be having some impact in the ruck. If he was being brushed aside as see as you say, then how does Bruce do so much worse? I mean they shouldn't be that much of a difference if Hickey is struggling so so badly. Two, Longer is younger and also, from pre-season reports, less fit than Tom. This means that Bruce might have more ruck stints. Even if Billy has become the better ruckman, is he good enough to cover the potentially extra time Bruce does in the ruck? Eh, I don't think so. One more thing is that Hickey, in a supposed down year, averages one more clearance than Billy did back in 2015. Is our midfield strong enough to lose that one clearance? Or the extra tackle? Probably, but these are also points in Tom's favour that seem to be forgotten.
You also say the coaches might have seen Billy dominate Hickey at training. Fair enough. The coaches see a lot more than I do, so their opinion is very important. The proof will come tomorrow ultimately. Billy is coming up against a weaker ruck division than Hickey has - certainly theres no Martin, Grundy or Gawn to contend with! If he's really that much of an improvement, we'll find out by 6 PM tomorrow.
IMO, I'm tipping he'll disappoint. I don't want him to. I want him to get 60 hitouts and 15 possies and we win by 10 goals. I'd love to be wrong but I don't see it.
Last edited:
Periphery
Cancelled
- Jul 25, 2013
- 6,688
- 9,911
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Probably one of our mids who sharked the opposition ruck tap or won his own contested ball.
Paragraph spacing
ease up mate.
Thats a bit harsh.
Your just being picky now.
i never even noticed the spacing.
I find myself subconsciously holding my breath and then gasping for air when I read those long posts.
Cornish
Club Legend
- Sep 30, 2015
- 1,724
- 4,102
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Longer vs Hickey debate?
I don't think anyone begrudges Billy getting a game, especially if Hickey's form drops.
I just think that a few of us weren't impressed last year when despite Hickey having a breakout season, some were still arguing that Longer is the better player.
I just think that a few of us weren't impressed last year when despite Hickey having a breakout season, some were still arguing that Longer is the better player.
Cornish
Club Legend
- Sep 30, 2015
- 1,724
- 4,102
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Hicks looked a little down recently, getting smashed in the guts an ribs every week will do that to you, i had a feeling he may get dropped for Billy. Billy is pretty fresh, is he a better ruck than Tom? that's always going to be debatable, but we know he can ruck in the AFL. Billy can be a fiery campaigner, hope he brings that along with him, i think he will. Hes a Saints player and has my 100% backing until he proves different....
StCicatriz
Brownlow Medallist
- Aug 3, 2016
- 28,291
- 61,598
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
just on this, i am listening to the RSN podcast from harfs breakfast show. they're saying the terminology used on side changes is important as it decides if a player gets match payment and if it counts towards trigger/bonus clauses
they said if they had said Tom Hickey (omitted), Tom wouldnt have received a match payment nor would it count as a game played. By using managed, rested or injured it means you qualify for the match day payment and it counts towards a game played, as its not his fault he isnt playing
so it sounds like we are looking after tom here financially
they said if they had said Tom Hickey (omitted), Tom wouldnt have received a match payment nor would it count as a game played. By using managed, rested or injured it means you qualify for the match day payment and it counts towards a game played, as its not his fault he isnt playing
so it sounds like we are looking after tom here financially
Could also be that he did indeed pick up a knock and needed to have the week off. He might not be our best tap ruckman but he gives us a hell of a lot more than just tapping a ball.
Do match payments count toward the overall salary cap?
Periphery
Cancelled
- Jul 25, 2013
- 6,688
- 9,911
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Longer's ruck work was way above anything we've got from Hickey this year.
IMO the whole discussion comes down to whether people think ruck work or around the ground is more important, and to what degree people think the respective weaknesses can be improved.
StCicatriz
Brownlow Medallist
- Aug 3, 2016
- 28,291
- 61,598
- AFL Club
- St Kilda
Come from another club? What are you on about?
Similar threads
