Scandal Tom Wills - not a good guy?

[Ron The Bear]

View attachment 1243589
This is a quote from Tom's younger brother about their dad at Cullin la Ringo. I think it's fair to presume that even if Tom's dad was having premonitions, then so was Tom. Because by all accounts it's Tom's dad who was trying to calm his son's fears. Maybe he was putting on a brave face, as the leader of the party, but privately shared in the sense of foreboding

Fair enough, though quite different from the trepidation described in the newly-discovered letter. A general sense of apprehension was par for the course on the frontier; have previously posted an evocative description of the fears of settlers returning to the homestead and their relief when they saw that all was well. Damned if I can find it. The family in Victoria was acutely aware of the possibility that the men might not return.

 

[SpareTowel]

Fair enough, though quite different from the trepidation described in the newly-discovered letter. A general sense of apprehension was par for the course on the frontier; have previously posted an evocative description of the fears of settlers returning to the homestead and their relief when they saw that all was well. Damned if I can find it. The family in Victoria was acutely aware of the possibility that the men might not return.

Yeah, it's clear the author of the Chicago Tribune piece, whoever he is, doesn't mind distorting facts for the sake of heightening the drama

 

[Ron The Bear]

View attachment 1243595

Just on the last bit, where Wills snr accepts Tom's revolver and is later killed after firing a single shot... When Wills' mother wrote to inform her other sons in Germany what had happened, she remarked that Wills snr "had only time to fire one out of the four barrels". Yet the mystery writer claims Wills said "I emptied the whole six barrels of my revolver".

Perhaps Wills had different types of guns, or borrowed a gun for his alleged part in the raid, but he wasn't around to answer.

 

[SpareTowel]

Just on the last bit, where Wills snr accepts Tom's revolver and is later killed after firing a single shot... When Wills' mother wrote to inform her other sons in Germany what had happened, she remarked that Wills snr "had only time to fire one out of the four barrels". Yet the mystery writer claims Wills said "I emptied the whole six barrels of my revolver".

Perhaps Wills had different types of guns, or borrowed a gun for his alleged part in the raid, but he wasn't around to answer.

Didn't they have a stockpile? Sure there were many guns to choose from

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

News service is reputable but political discussion is a propaganda arm of the left-wing parties.

Which is completely unsupported by numerous investigations, many if not most of them initiated by the right wing party.

As such a lover of stats I’m surprised you missed that one.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Our Neanderball loving friends over at LU are baying for blood, those that can spell anyway.

What is LU?

 

[SpareTowel]

Well then, it appears there has been an oral history within the Wills family that Tom participated in massacres, shared in private correspondence between family. And the AFL may have declined to publish research that concluded that Tom participated

Wills family descendant claims he sent information to AFL on Aboriginal mass murder claims years ago

A Wills family descendant claims he sent information to the AFL several years ago suggesting Aussie Rules pioneer Tom Wills had been involved in atrocities against Aboriginal people.

www.abc.net.au

 

[HanYolo]

What is LU?

LeagueUnited

Well then, it appears there has been an oral history within the Wills family that Tom participated in massacres, shared in private correspondence between family. And the AFL may have declined to publish research that concluded that Tom participated

Wills family descendant claims he sent information to AFL on Aboriginal mass murder claims years ago

A Wills family descendant claims he sent information to the AFL several years ago suggesting Aussie Rules pioneer Tom Wills had been involved in atrocities against Aboriginal people.

www.abc.net.au

It's also possible that the recipients at the AFL didn't bother to sit down and read an essay sent to them by Some Guy in the first place.

 

[SpareTowel]

LeagueUnited



It's also possible that the recipients at the AFL didn't bother to sit down and read an essay sent to them by Some Guy in the first place.

It says they published another work by him at least. I haven't read his essay though but would be curious what his arguments are

 

[Ron The Bear]

Didn't they have a stockpile? Sure there were many guns to choose from

The cache of firearms was reportedly stolen during the massacre. Wills snr died with a handgun in his right hand - presumably Tom's - and a rifle near his left.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Well then, it appears there has been an oral history within the Wills family that Tom participated in massacres, shared in private correspondence between family. And the AFL may have declined to publish research that concluded that Tom participated

Wills family descendant claims he sent information to AFL on Aboriginal mass murder claims years ago

A Wills family descendant claims he sent information to the AFL several years ago suggesting Aussie Rules pioneer Tom Wills had been involved in atrocities against Aboriginal people.

www.abc.net.au

Interesting. You'd think he could've found a publisher in 15 years. Not necessarily one who stood to lose face by going to print.

This is very pertinent.

"You need to remember that the days were different, as you yourself have said, and there was no feeling that in carrying out this reprisal there was anything other than fully deserved retribution in their (then) opinion, thus there was no need to hide anything. That is where I think your hypothesis falls down — the view that people were setting out to conceal that Tom took part. My guess is that everyone took it for granted."

Wills' sister Emily wrote to her brothers enthusiastically claiming that 300 Aboriginals had been killed.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

It's also possible that the recipients at the AFL didn't bother to sit down and read an essay sent to them by Some Guy in the first place.

He wasn't just Some Guy. AFL Publishing had already released one of his other books.

 

[HanYolo]

I was talking about the first three paragraphs of the article. AFL Publishing was an imprint of Slattery Media, separate to the AFL.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Well then, it appears there has been an oral history within the Wills family that Tom participated in massacres, shared in private correspondence between family. And the AFL may have declined to publish research that concluded that Tom participated

Wills family descendant claims he sent information to AFL on Aboriginal mass murder claims years ago

A Wills family descendant claims he sent information to the AFL several years ago suggesting Aussie Rules pioneer Tom Wills had been involved in atrocities against Aboriginal people.

www.abc.net.au

One thinketh that Terry Wills Cook, like a lot of replies on here, doth protest too much.

Terry Wills Cooke, the great-grandson of Tom Wills's brother Horace, told ABC Sport that studies such as Mr McPherson's had "made the error of judging the events of the 1860s by the standards and mores of the 21st century"

As I said yesterday, it is impossible to not view history through the prism of today. History is about attempting to understand, not about setting things in stone. Is Wills Cooke saying we should never research the past? He's described as the "family historian" but the logical endpoint of his argument is that he shouldn't be researching his family either, unless he can prove to us that he is uniquely immune to the prejudices of his day and his upbringing and his education.

Of course, McPherson's research may be risible s**t. But it should be dismissed point by point with logic and facts, not with some sweeping accusation that he is biased by the standards and mores of the 21st century but the accuser somehow isn't.

I'll say it again. We all agree that the past was different to the present. But people who love to say that, conveniently ignore the other side of the coin - that the present is different to the past.

 

[SpareTowel]

The cache of firearms was reportedly stolen during the massacre. Wills snr died with a handgun in his right hand - presumably Tom's - and a rifle near his left.

On the gun question you raised, I found this in Greg De Moore's thesis, where he's quoting a friend of Tom's:

"Tom Wills has frequently told me that he never trusted the natives, but always carried two six-shooters and often warned ‘the governor’ to do the same, but the old man prided himself on being able to manage the blacks from his experience of them gained in Victoria, and said they would never harm him."

 

[Islanda22]

Australia has a dark and disgraceful history

Add the fact ''White Australians'' will never acknowledge any wrong doings in how they occupied Australia from the First Nations People.

History good and bad NEEDS to be taught in our schools.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I was talking about the first three paragraphs of the article. AFL Publishing was an imprint of Slattery Media, separate to the AFL.

Why limit yourself to the first three pars? Tired eyes?

Yes, it was a privately owned concern, which was housed in AFL House. I suspect the AFL would know what was being published about AFL history by a company in AFL House called AFL Publishing. They are pretty overbearing about their portrayal, you may have noticed.

But I guess I may be overestimating the AFL.

 

[SpareTowel]

One thinketh that Terry Wills Cook, like a lot of replies on here, doth protest too much.

Terry Wills Cooke, the great-grandson of Tom Wills's brother Horace, told ABC Sport that studies such as Mr McPherson's had "made the error of judging the events of the 1860s by the standards and mores of the 21st century"

As I said yesterday, it is impossible to not view history through the prism of today. History is about attempting to understand, not about setting things in stone. Is Wills Cooke saying we should never research the past? He's described as the "family historian" but the logical endpoint of his argument is that he shouldn't be researching his family, unless he can prove to us that he is uniquely immune to the prejudices of his day and his upbringing and his education.

Of course, McPherson's research may be risible sh*t. But it should be dismissed point by point with logic and facts, not with some sweeping accusation that he is biased by the standards and mores of the 21st century but the accuser isn't.

I'll say it again. We all agree that the past was different to the present. But people who love to say that, conveniently ignore the other side of the coin - that the present is different to the past.

His complete contradictions re oral history made me laugh. He says oral history shouldn't be trusted, then goes on to validate it to back his claim that Tom did not take part. But then in a private letter years earlier, he said the family oral history suggests Tom did in fact take part. Uhhhh

 

[Ron The Bear]

On the gun question you raised, I found this in Greg De Moore's thesis, where he's quoting a friend of Tom's:

"Tom Wills has frequently told me that he never trusted the natives, but always carried two six-shooters and often warned ‘the governor’ to do the same, but the old man prided himself on being able to manage the blacks from his experience of them gained in Victoria, and said they would never harm him."

Yeah that quote is in the book as well.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

On the topic of statues (and no, I'm not saying it has been proven that Wills engaged in slaughter), interestingly enough this article just popped up in front of me.

Some very creative ideas for how to deal with the memorialisation of a pillar of society who sawed the face off a corpse. (Now who among us can honestly say we haven't done that from time to time, eh?)

Interesting survey results (from an admittedly very small pool). 25% want problematic statues removed, 25% want them to stay, 50% want them to stay but with the more complete story being told in some way.

And classic dumbarse comment from Cr Simon Behrakis "He previously called the initiative a “feel-good woke project” and said, “we have limited resources on this council and limited time and we should be directing it to areas where we can actually improve society”.

Public art does improve society you goose.

A statue of a Tasmanian colonist has been covered up. Should it ever return?

As colonial statues topple across the globe, one Australian city council is asking: what do we do with ours?

www.theguardian.com

 

[NoobPie]

LeagueUnited



It's also possible that the recipients at the AFL didn't bother to sit down and read an essay sent to them by Some Guy in the first place.

I find it so strange and disturbing that people would be getting excited by the prospect that this could smear Australian football. It is a strange level of bitterness

 

[NoobPie]

One thinketh that Terry Wills Cook, like a lot of replies on here, doth protest too much.

Terry Wills Cooke, the great-grandson of Tom Wills's brother Horace, told ABC Sport that studies such as Mr McPherson's had "made the error of judging the events of the 1860s by the standards and mores of the 21st century"

As I said yesterday, it is impossible to not view history through the prism of today. History is about attempting to understand, not about setting things in stone. Is Wills Cooke saying we should never research the past? He's described as the "family historian" but the logical endpoint of his argument is that he shouldn't be researching his family either, unless he can prove to us that he is uniquely immune to the prejudices of his day and his upbringing and his education.

Of course, McPherson's research may be risible sh*t. But it should be dismissed point by point with logic and facts, not with some sweeping accusation that he is biased by the standards and mores of the 21st century but the accuser somehow isn't.

I'll say it again. We all agree that the past was different to the present. But people who love to say that, conveniently ignore the other side of the coin - that the present is different to the past.

You're very confused

 

[deanc]

On the topic of statues (and no, I'm not saying it has been proven that Wills engaged in slaughter), interestingly enough this article just popped up in front of me.

Some very creative ideas for how to deal with the memorialisation of a pillar of society who sawed the face off a corpse. (Now who among us can honestly say we haven't done that from time to time, eh?)

Interesting survey results (from an admittedly very small pool). 25% want problematic statues removed, 25% want them to stay, 50% want them to stay but with the more complete story being told in some way.

And classic dumbarse comment from Cr Simon Behrakis "He previously called the initiative a “feel-good woke project” and said, “we have limited resources on this council and limited time and we should be directing it to areas where we can actually improve society”.

Public art does improve society you goose.

A statue of a Tasmanian colonist has been covered up. Should it ever return?

As colonial statues topple across the globe, one Australian city council is asking: what do we do with ours?

www.theguardian.com

I support the updating of plaque's on any historical statue's, providing the town or cities local population democratically come to that conclusion, however this is often challenging to determine given the majority of people simply have little interest in such issues.

If the related initiative is actually about education and not just activism then installing QR codes is also a good solution, specifically for our younger generation and/or tourists, as it can direct observer's to an online reference for further information. Of course the online information about this person must contain actual verifiable historical accounts, not fanciful rumours or mythical defamatory stories...

 

[Lip Gallagher]

What is LU?

League unlimited, they are letting it all hang out on a not for public view board (The Fight Club).

 

[NoobPie]

League unlimited, they are letting it all hang out on a not for public view board (The Fight Club).

Ahh, that would explain why I didn't see it when I had a look

It must be particularly rancid in there cos it was bad enough some of the stuff in the available threads