List Mgmt. Tom Wilson Signs with Collingwood

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Shpeshal Ed

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I can come out and say McGovern is entirely more dominant than Moore. But without evidence. It means bugger all. And those stats show that McGovern is not only a better intercepter but also a substantially better stopper than Moore or any of his peers for that matter.

Those selections belong in the 90s. I don't regard any of them top 5 key defenders right now. Moore is the only of those who can intercept and rebound.
Wait....


Hold up.......

So, if the ball goes inside West Coast's defensive 50 20 times and McGovern intercepts it 10 times, but the ball goes inside Collingwood's defensive 50 10 times and Moore intercepts 8 of those, you still say McGovern wins because his number is 2 higher?

Seriously?
 

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Out of curiosity, those who know more about Cat B. Rookies and how the contracts work, what are we to make of him being given a 3-year deal?

Why not do year to year?
 

sr36

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Out of curiosity, those who know more about Cat B. Rookies and how the contracts work, what are we to make of him being given a 3-year deal?

Why not do year to year?
Would you switch from National level basketball for a 1 year contract? Additionally, there were other suitors. I assume we'd have needed to offer a contract that was competitive.
 

Matt_352

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Would you switch from National level basketball for a 1 year contract? Additionally, there were other suitors. I assume we'd have needed to offer a contract that was competitive.
Exactly if teams like Hawthorn and Geelong were Gunning for him then I am wrapt we got him
 

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Would you switch from National level basketball for a 1 year contract? Additionally, there were other suitors. I assume we'd have needed to offer a contract that was competitive.
Just looked it up via the AFL Rules: "A Player may remain on a Club’s List as an Alternative Talent for a maximum of 3 years. "

Seems like we essentially gave him a max. deal in the possible framework. Must really rate the kid. Begs the question if a club could abuse the Cat B rookie system and get essentially 3 years for free out of elite talent. The rules only say "must have played at senior level in a Recognised Elite Sporting Competition". Certainly seems subjective, "an elite sporting competition including, but not limited to NRL, NBL, Super 15 SANZAR, Sheffield Shield, Olympic Games, ALeague, NCAA, or other elite sporting competition as approved by the AFL from time to time", doesn't even give the framework for how long you'd need to play.

Could be the beneficiary of an interesting system. Time will tell.
 

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76woodenspooners

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Just looked it up via the AFL Rules: "A Player may remain on a Club’s List as an Alternative Talent for a maximum of 3 years. "

Seems like we essentially gave him a max. deal in the possible framework. Must really rate the kid. Begs the question if a club could abuse the Cat B rookie system and get essentially 3 years for free out of elite talent. The rules only say "must have played at senior level in a Recognised Elite Sporting Competition". Certainly seems subjective, "an elite sporting competition including, but not limited to NRL, NBL, Super 15 SANZAR, Sheffield Shield, Olympic Games, ALeague, NCAA, or other elite sporting competition as approved by the AFL from time to time", doesn't even give the framework for how long you'd need to play.
It probably doesn’t matter too much - even if they only play at the elite level for 1 game, it probably took them years of training inside an elite environment to get to that stage.

Could be the beneficiary of an interesting system. Time will tell.
IIRC there’s another clause in the rules that states that to be eligible the player can’t have been registered in any AFL comp for a period of at least 3 years.
 

Scodog10

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I can come out and say McGovern is entirely more dominant than Moore. But without evidence. It means bugger all. And those stats show that McGovern is not only a better intercepter but also a substantially better stopper than Moore or any of his peers for that matter.

Those selections belong in the 90s. I don't regard any of them top 5 key defenders right now. Moore is the only of those who can intercept and rebound.
I think the issue is the weighting given to that particular evidence. Nowadays I’m personally a numbers guy for teams because it’s so hard to watch a game on TV then decide how good the teams are and I’m probably 60-40 numbers to eye on individual players. The problem with the argument you’ve framed is that most on here aren’t wired like us so may not like numbers at all.

For instance I would frame a POV to my dad about a player or club very differently to how I’d express it on here because it’s a different audience. I think in this case you’re slightly out of touch with the readership.
 

Saintly Viewed

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Out of curiosity, those who know more about Cat B. Rookies and how the contracts work, what are we to make of him being given a 3-year deal?

Why not do year to year?
A number of reasons.

All monies for 3 years for a Cat B does not count in the salary cap.
Strike a deal to win him over other clubs.
Knowing he was a top line junior footy player and had the dedication to make the Australian team in basketball means it’s far less of a risk than not.
Give him confidence and time to develop or get to the level without undue pressure.
 

35Daicos

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So the 2016 draft would have been his draft?
2015, I believe. It seems he was born in June 1997, so he turned 18 in 2015.

Wikipedia has a DOB of 24 June 1997, the NBL site has 27 June 1997.

I'm sure the club will have his profile page/details up one of these days, hopefully before the year is out!!
 

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It probably doesn’t matter too much - even if they only play at the elite level for 1 game, it probably took them years of training inside an elite environment to get to that stage.

IIRC there’s another clause in the rules that states that to be eligible the player can’t have been registered in any AFL comp for a period of at least 3 years.
Let's just work out a deal with an American College that competes in the NCAA to allow us to send young talent to train in facilities we pay for with trainers we provide and pay for to learn "Basketball" skills like how to handball and kick a nice drop punt to a moving target and sit on the end of the bench for a year then take them as Cat B Rookies for free.

Simpl.
 

Saintly Viewed

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Let's just work out a deal with an American College that competes in the NCAA to allow us to send young talent to train in facilities we pay for with trainers we provide and pay for to learn "Basketball" skills like how to handball and kick a nice drop punt to a moving target and sit on the end of the bench for a year then take them as Cat B Rookies for free.

Simpl.
That my cost far more than doing it the right way.
 

35Daicos

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sr36

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I think the issue is the weighting given to that particular evidence. Nowadays I’m personally a numbers guy for teams because it’s so hard to watch a game on TV then decide how good the teams are and I’m probably 60-40 numbers to eye on individual players. The problem with the argument you’ve framed is that most on here aren’t wired like us so may not like numbers at all.

For instance I would frame a POV to my dad about a player or club very differently to how I’d express it on here because it’s a different audience. I think in this case you’re slightly out of touch with the readership.
The other issue I have is that the numbers have their context removed and are treated as though the same guys would get the same stats regardless of their role, regardless of the system the team plays, regardless of how good the team is, how much support they are receiving, how effectively teammates block, etc...

Collecting an intercept possession on the wing in a team with a really organised hard zone isn't the same as collecting an intercept possession in defensive 50 in a team that plays man on man inside 50, but they're treated equally in stat analysis.

The guys who are being compared get the stats they do based on skill, but also as a product of the club they are at and how it has decided to play its footy. If they change club, their stats will change regardless of whether they've changed at all.

You can't get an objective assessment through your eyes, but you can't get one from the stats either.
 

35Daicos

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Let's just work out a deal with an American College that competes in the NCAA to allow us to send young talent to train in facilities we pay for with trainers we provide and pay for to learn "Basketball" skills like how to handball and kick a nice drop punt to a moving target and sit on the end of the bench for a year then take them as Cat B Rookies for free.

Simpl.
The three year non-registered rule does apply, so I think we'll just have to stick to doing it the conventional way, and hope to beat the opposition to the odd top prospect who becomes available!
 

Scodog10

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The other issue I have is that the numbers have their context removed and are treated as though the same guys would get the same stats regardless of their role, regardless of the system the team plays, regardless of how good the team is, how much support they are receiving, how effectively teammates block, etc...

Collecting an intercept possession on the wing in a team with a really organised hard zone isn't the same as collecting an intercept possession in defensive 50 in a team that plays man on man inside 50, but they're treated equally in stat analysis.

The guys who are being compared get the stats they do based on skill, but also as a product of the club they are at and how it has decided to play its footy. If they change club, their stats will change regardless of whether they've changed at all.

You can't get an objective assessment through your eyes, but you can't get one from the stats either.
As they say context is king! IMO, a cause for the prevalence of data used incorrectly is 2019 football coverage. We have mass media trying to find an angle which can be supported by data, but quite often because the people communicating it are figureheads for the people doing the real work the information lacks the necessary context...
 

Saintly Viewed

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His arrival at the club certainly has been given plenty of coverage on the club website, but surely someone can add his photo and details to this page: https://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/pies-teams/afl/rookies

And update the other bloody photos while they're at it!!
Yes I’ve noticed.
Only up to round 8, still time.

It’s a bit poor.

You’d think someone like Ed or Geoff Walsh would notice and make mention.
 

sr36

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As they say context is king! IMO, a cause for the prevalence of data used incorrectly is 2019 football coverage. We have mass media trying to find an angle which can be supported by data, but quite often because the people communicating it are figureheads for the people doing the real work the information lacks the necessary context...
I view data analysis as having become a quasi-religion - not just in footy, but right throughout culture.

When talking about data, Marie Curie said something along the lines of being able to look through god's eyes. I think for people who seek absolute truth, it's become like the bible - something of comfort that can give them a sense of absolute truth. Like with the Bible, how these spreadsheets were compiled has become irrelevant as has the context under which the story once had relevance. Once something exists in a spreadsheet it becomes scripture to those who view it as a way of seeing absolute truth. I'm not sure how this relates to Tom Wilson, so I'll step off my soap box now.
 
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