MVP Tommy Boyd - The Boy, The Man, The Premiership Hero

immortalmike

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I get it. But he's playing forward ruck because he simply wasn't delivering as a full forward and they are strengthening his bows. He wasn't recruited as a forward-ruck he was brought in to be our number 1 forward and hasn't shown enough up there consistently to deliver that and stay there. If he was taking 7-9 marks a game up front do you seriously think we'd be throwing him into the guts? Didn't do it originally but we've been forced to pursue plan B.
No he's playing forward/ruck to develop his fitness and match conditioning. It was specifically mentioned preseason last year as well as this.
 

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immortalmike

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No he's playing forward/ruck to develop his fitness and match conditioning. It was specifically mentioned preseason last year as well as this.
Your post below this quoted is the more honest assessment. It's a bit of both - tank and form. Again - I'm ok with that but let's not be the board that paints a blackbird white and tries to sell it as a crested cockatoo....
 
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http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2015-04-01/boyds-rucking-role

From last year discusses that we'd throw him in there if things don't go to plan but also to build his tank.
This year it seems more about the fact that Roughy didn't grab the second ruck role with both hands and is keeping Campbell out as a first ruck.
I know we need a game show called "Montgomery says the darndest things" but also re why he is rucking:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2015-11-23/bulldogs-forward-boyd-needs-to-find-his-athletic-side-montgomery
 

immortalmike

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Your post below this quoted is the more honest assessment. It's a bit of both - tank and form. Again - I'm ok with that but let's not be the board that paints a blackbird white and tries to sell it as a crested cockatoo....
I'd also rather not be the board so paralyzed by the fear of him failing that we lose perspective and ignore that he's a 20 year old kpf with a shitload of development in him. He's played 4 games this year 2 shit 2 okay, let's keep it in perspective.
 

BRWB

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I'd also rather not be the board so paralyzed by the fear of him failing that we lose perspective and ignore that he's a 20 year old kpf with a shitload of development in him. He's played 4 games this year 2 shit 2 okay, let's keep it in perspective.
We have 123 pages of a love story between a board and a 20 year old kid. Perspective jumped the shark at about page 15 :D
 
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I get it. But he's playing forward ruck because he simply wasn't delivering as a full forward and they are strengthening his bows. He wasn't recruited as a forward-ruck he was brought in to be our number 1 forward and hasn't shown enough up there consistently to deliver that and stay there. If he was taking 7-9 marks a game up front do you seriously think we'd be throwing him into the guts? Didn't do it originally but we've been forced to pursue plan B.
Chicken and egg IMO. If he was smashing it fwd would he be playing ruck? Iirc Bev said early last yr Boyd would play ruck if wasn't getting into games.
Firstly I think there is some movement of the goal posts going on here. You can't line up last week's performances (where he played ruck) and use it as evidence of Boyd being worse than all other key forwards, then when that fact is pointed out fall back on the incorrect assumption that he's only playing there because he can't impact as a key forward. Similarly it is entirely disingenuous to pass off Daniher's one game as "shit" and then use Boyd's one game as evidence that he's not good enough. I enjoy the posts of both of you but in this instance I feel you're bending over backwards to demonstrate that he's worse than others.

To address your argument however, I've gone back and done some research. Looking at team sheets etc, Boyd has played ten games as a sole forward for us - all last year. Two of them he was subbed out in (one of these due to illness and one I can't remember; may have just been a poor game). These are the other eight games:
Round 3 vs Hawthorn: 14 disposals, 6 marks (2 contested), 3 goals, 1 tackle
Round 4 vs Adelaide: 8 disposals, 3 marks, 2 goals, 4 tackles
Round 5 vs Sydney: 9 disposals, 3 marks, 2 goals, 2 tackles
Round 6 vs St Kilda: 6 disposals, 4 marks, 2 behinds
Round 7 vs Fremantle: 8 disposals, 6 marks, 2 goals, 3 tackles
Round 9 vs GWS: 8 disposals, 5 marks, 1 goal, 1 behind, 1 tackle, 3 inside 50s
Round 12 vs Brisbane: 12 disposals, 6 marks, 4 goals, 1 behind, 2 tackles, 3 inside 50s
Round 13 vs St Kilda: 11 disposals, 4 marks, 1 goal, 4 tackles

Thus in full games as a pure forward (some of these he did play a little ruck also but didn't play as second ruck specifically) he averaged 9.5 disposals, over 4.6 marks and just under 1.9 goals, bringing him much further in line with the players mentioned by Deadly Dunkley. So yes, he is impacting as a key forward, even last year. He has poor games like all other young forwards - perhaps more - but he is also taking on a considerably greater role than is expected of many of them. When you account for this difference and look at games where he played similar roles, it brings him to around middle of the pack - and from a 200cm key forward with, frankly, an embarrassing tank, I would take that.

Nobody's excusing last week's game btw, it was poor. I just think some perspective is needed. He has performed fairly well this year so far in a huge role, so let's not jump up and down when he does have a poor game. I want to see more, but I also don't think week-by-week comparisons of players in different roles based on box score statistics are at all relevant. He's very clearly developing and none of us know where he's going to get to. Right now, though, he's going ok.
 
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Why is it that the term "perspective" gets hammered when anything remotely criticising the kid gets posted?

"Perspective" is defined as a "particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view"

Pretty sure that there are multiple ways of perceiving Boyds situation at the moment and that some of those different viewpoints are exactly what is getting posted here?

Edit - I'm buggered if I want to prove he's further behind than I'd love him to be. I wish he was kicking a couple each week as I would sleep far more sweetly than I already do. I just struggle to digest pages of spun sugar as I'm getting a mild case of diabetes of the eyeball.
 
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Why is it that the term "perspective" gets hammered when anything remotely criticising the kid gets posted?

"Perspective" is defined as a "particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view"

Pretty sure that there are multiple ways of perceiving Boyds situation at the moment and that some of those different viewpoints are exactly what is getting posted here?
Perspective is actually "the art of representing three-dimensional objects on a two-dimensional surface so as to give the right impression of their height, width, depth, and position in relation to each other." :D

All jokes aside, it's fine to have those differing viewpoints. My reference to "perspective" was appealing to an alternative definition of the word; i.e. "true understanding of the relative importance of things; a sense of proportion." I'm simply suggesting that when you line up last week's performances like you have you miss important information regarding how they were played. Historically, when Boyd plays the same position as the above young key forwards do, he performs similarly.
 

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immortalmike

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Why is it that the term "perspective" gets hammered when anything remotely criticising the kid gets posted?

"Perspective" is defined as a "particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view"

Pretty sure that there are multiple ways of perceiving Boyds situation at the moment and that some of those different viewpoints are exactly what is getting posted here?

Edit - I'm buggered if I want to prove he's further behind than I'd love him to be. I wish he was kicking a couple each week as I would sleep far more sweetly than I already do. I just struggle to digest pages of spun sugar as I'm getting a mild case of diabetes of the eyeball.
Did you not see me railing against people calling him a superstar off a decent game earlier in the thread.

Perspective works both ways. He's 20, playing a ******* tough role. He's had some stinkers and some decent ones, overall he looks like a developing tall. We'll know more at the earliest by the end of the year.
 
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Perspective is actually "the art of representing three-dimensional objects on a two-dimensional surface so as to give the right impression of their height, width, depth, and position in relation to each other." :D

All jokes aside, it's fine to have those differing viewpoints. My reference to "perspective" was appealing to an alternative definition of the word; i.e. "true understanding of the relative importance of things; a sense of proportion." I'm simply suggesting that when you line up last week's performances like you have you miss important information regarding how they were played. Historically, when Boyd plays the same position as the above young key forwards do, he performs similarly.
:D

The only thing is neither of our stats represent the multiple poor games at VFL level where he produced not very much last year as well. That's the patch that scares me as I see that getting emulated in the last couple of weeks. Look, it's early days and we all appreciate that and it's fine for people to look at the positive side of this stuff. I know more people who would have valid viewpoints who are involved in VFL level than AFL and I'm no expert myself. I'm just seeing enough and hearing enough to be more on the "needs to show more" side of Tom than...

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I'm headed back to my happy place driving Calebs Chariot of Shetland Glory now :p
 
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:D

The only thing is neither of our stats represent the multiple poor games at VFL level where he produced not very much last year as well. That's the patch that scares me as I see that getting emulated in the last couple of weeks. Look, it's early days and we all appreciate that and it's fine for people to look at the positive side of this stuff. I know more people who would have valid viewpoints who are involved in VFL level than AFL and I'm no expert myself. I'm just seeing enough and hearing enough to be more on the "needs to show more" side of Tom than...

<ermergherd girl insert gif here>

I'm headed back to my happy place driving Calebs Chariot of Shetland Glory now :p
I think the VFL form is interesting as well. I thought his form was pretty bloody ordinary in the games I saw and had a chuckle to myself when I saw "won multiple games off his own boot" around the place. I can't explain it confidently (I do have some ideas but they're just speculation) and it was disappointing to see. At the end of the day though, VFL is VFL and AFL is AFL - I'd hazard a guess that he had more genuinely poor games at VFL level than he has had at AFL level.

I don't think we're that far apart to be honest; I think those convinced he'll be an absolutely elite key forward are being just as silly as those convinced he's a bust. I both concede that we need to start seeing more from him and agree that he's playing a significantly larger role than you'd expect of a 20 year old key forward. Just don't think there's much cause for alarm yet. We don't know enough at the moment. He's taking on a significant challenge, improving and most weeks playing a solid role for the team - as long as he continues to trend upwards there's enough there to be positive about.
 

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I have plenty of time and patience for him. He's structurally important and he performs that role of second ruck pretty well I think. He's young and will take years and years to develop and get to his peak.

However there does seem to be a real clamouring on here, by some, to defend him to the absolute hilt whenever he has a subpar game. Do we really need to point out all the times that he got his hands to the ball, but failed to mark it and somehow see that as a positive? Yeah, great, touched the ball, still dropped it. Do we need to point out the fact that he should have got frees paid to him? Welcome to being a key forward, comes with the territory. I think he will be a 50+ goal forward for multiple seasons, but I think that will take at least another 3 years.
 

immortalmike

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I have plenty of time and patience for him. He's structurally important and he performs that role of second ruck pretty well I think. He's young and will take years and years to develop and get to his peak.

However there does seem to be a real clamouring on here, by some, to defend him to the absolute hilt whenever he has a subpar game. Do we really need to point out all the times that he got his hands to the ball, but failed to mark it and somehow see that as a positive? Yeah, great, touched the ball, still dropped it. Do we need to point out the fact that he should have got frees paid to him? Welcome to being a key forward, comes with the territory. I think he will be a 50+ goal forward for multiple seasons, but I think that will take at least another 3 years.
I think the real problem is that he has a shit game and you have people jumping on his back immediately (mostly out of fear in my opinion). That brings out a bunch of people who try to defend him abd they get sucked into defending the game.

I haven't seen anyone seriously call last week's game anywhere close to acceptable. If everyone would stop bouncing off the walls week to week this thread would only be 15 pages.
 

webbo

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I think the real problem is that he has a shit game and you have people jumping on his back immediately (mostly out of fear in my opinion). That brings out a bunch of people who try to defend him abd they get sucked into defending the game.

I haven't seen anyone seriously call last week's game anywhere close to acceptable. If everyone would stop bouncing off the walls week to week this thread would only be 15 pages.
Bit of a chicken egg scenario. What came first, the criticism or the defending of him?
Regardless, we're going to play him. People have to got to get used to that idea. I don't see Boyd being dropped this season at all. He will probably get rested a few times, but we won't see him out like we did last season. Bev's comments about harming his development, reinforce that. I think he's too necessary to our future to play Redpath in his place for any extended period of time.
 

immortalmike

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Bit of a chicken egg scenario. What came first, the criticism or the defending of him?
Regardless, we're going to play him. People have to got to get used to that idea. I don't see Boyd being dropped this season at all. He will probably get rested a few times, but we won't see him out like we did last season. Bev's comments about harming his development, reinforce that. I think he's too necessary to our future to play Redpath in his place for any extended period of time.
We had people calling him a bust after his first game. So it's definitely the chicken.
 

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fall back on the incorrect assumption that he's only playing there because he can't impact as a key forward.
Bevo even admitted in a press conference a couple weeks ago that until Tom can impact the game as a pure KPF then he will be played in the ruck to get him involved.

He also said that ideally in the future Tom will be a dominant KPF that plays %100 game time up forward.
 

immortalmike

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Bevo even admitted in a press conference a couple weeks ago that until Tom can impact the game as a pure KPF then he will be played in the ruck to get him involved.

He also said that ideally in the future Tom will be a dominant KPF that plays %100 game time up forward.
You don't think he meant that from a fitness perspective?
 

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You don't think he meant that from a fitness perspective?
Yea, that could be a factor.

I think it's more just maximising opportunity with him. At 20 years old he's still developing his forward craft, so until then I think Bevo just want's to get him involved in play as much as possible.

But the end game for Tom is definitely a pure KPF playing %100 game time in the forward line IMO.
 

immortalmike

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Yea, that could be a factor.

I think it's more just maximising opportunity with him. At 20 years old he's still developing his forward craft, so until then I think Bevo just want's to get him involved in play as much as possible.

But the end game for Tom is definitely a pure KPF playing %100 game time in the forward line IMO.
Yeah entirely. 100% a forward. But it means we may need to eventually look for a drafthorse type forward that can give a chop out in the ruck but doesn't compromise our pressure and structure.
 

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Yeah entirely. 100% a forward. But it means we may need to eventually look for a drafthorse type forward that can give a chop out in the ruck but doesn't compromise our pressure and structure.
Rory Lobb would be perfect.

2 weeks in a row Ceglar/McEvoy and Kruezer/Phillips showed us how good it is to have big men rotating up forward and take big marks and kick big goals.
 
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