MVP Tommy Boyd - The Boy, The Man, The Premiership Hero

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DogDays

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I'm only seeing Toyd on TV from up here and I'm wouldn't say that he's doing to bad for a young KPF, I'd like him to be kicking 4 goals a game as we all would but I can see we are a better team for him in the side. Therefore I'm prepared to be patient. At some point I think it will click and he'll become a better player.

I think the problem with all us supporters is we all knew we'd have to pay a fortune to get that quality young KPF we've needed for years, but we all expect him to be worth the cost on his own performance, the reality is he is worth more to us than just his performance, he brings structure, he brings team balance and he reminds other players that we are a destination they should consider.


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So's Bonti. Look I totally get the age thing but it's concerning that we have a number 1 draft pick who was clearly all the rage going through multiple games without scoring or looking like scoring goals. I get the arguments, I see the comparatives but he isn't delivering anywhere near his potential suggested. Sorry - he just isn't.

A bloke I totally respect who coaches in the VFL at a high level and played us twice last year with Boyd in both games got a very close look at him then and described him as "miles away from where I expected him to be and I'm unconvinced he can make the transition at VFL let alone the big time". Clearly he is somewhat better than that but taking last weekend as a random snapshot:

Daniher (shit game) - 1 mark, 0.1
McCartin - 5 marks, 2.1 goals
Schache - 5 marks, 1.1 goals
Tom Boyd - 1 mark, 0.1 goals
Rory Lobb - 4 marks, 4.1 goals
J Patton - 9 marks, 1.1 goals
Moore - 7 marks, 1.1 goals
Hogan - 9 marks, 2.2 goals

The problem is, he can have bad games, I also get he had a sore shoulder but this is a consistent picture.

At the moment, and I'm happy to put it on the line, he is tracking to be a 5 out of 10. And that would make him the one big failure I've seen our unbelievable recruitment machine make. I'm ok with that - we have to have a stab at this stuff and sometimes it won't pan out perfectly.

His comparative development to every one of his "equivalent" young developing talls is slow. I hope he turns it around. But it's not his age.

I hate this post. But it is what it is at the moment unfortunately.
So at the end of his seven year deal he will be twenty six and just about
to enter the prime years for a KPF, that's odd list management.:D[/QUote
Getting Toyd has proven to be good list management. At the time we needed something to give us hope. Slow development aside the club now has a monster fwd that we needed desperately. The club drew a line in the sand and said we're taking a chance. Our structure is enormously better now with the contest he brings fwd and ruck. Pointing out on here his current deficiencies is just stating the obvious and yeah we paid overs- so what! Where are we now compared to where we were? (Flying by comparison)At the very least he's done us no harm at all. At best he's up holding his end of the deal nicely. With natural progression his output will increase as it has done already. I think a 5 is pessimistic but if we win one with a 5 kpf I'll take it any day and as long as we're not punted for bankruptcy, will still being saying good list management.
 

Pugz89

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Why is it that the term "perspective" gets hammered when anything remotely criticising the kid gets posted?

"Perspective" is defined as a "particular attitude towards or way of regarding something; a point of view"

Pretty sure that there are multiple ways of perceiving Boyds situation at the moment and that some of those different viewpoints are exactly what is getting posted here?

Edit - I'm buggered if I want to prove he's further behind than I'd love him to be. I wish he was kicking a couple each week as I would sleep far more sweetly than I already do. I just struggle to digest pages of spun sugar as I'm getting a mild case of diabetes of the eyeball.
Name a genuine big bodied KPF in the past ten years who has averaged 2 goals a game at 20 years of age? You can compare him to Jezza etc all you like but completely different bodies, genetic makeups and approaches to how they score their goals.
 

threenewpadlocks

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The other thing people are forgetting is that we're a competitive, premiership-threatening team much sooner than expected when considering the point in time that we traded for Boyd.

As such, we're playing him in such a way that we're looking to win games and look toward the premiership, not just develop him as a player.

If we were looking to purely develop him we might leave him at FF 100% of the time longer term as well as a second key forward for support in order to make him develop in his natural position and more likely to dominate games and build his confidence. We would not have also dropped him to the 2's last year.

However that would have made us less likely to win the flag this year/next year so it's not worth the trade-off, as rucking Boyd 40% of the game and having a smaller forward line to forward pressure is better for our overall structure and helps us win games even though it's to the detriment of Boyd's player development.
 

Dogsman16

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Name a genuine big bodied KPF in the past ten years who has averaged 2 goals a game at 20 years of age? You can compare him to Jezza etc all you like but completely different bodies, genetic makeups and approaches to how they score their goals.
Umm hogan !!!

I get your drift though I don't think anyone around 200cm has been close to that 2 goal a game mark.

Tom lynchs fourth season is where he really exploded with 46 goals and that magical 2 goal a game average.

Is that what we all expect from Boyd?
 

Dogsman16

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I don't like to compare players against those who played 20 odd years ago. Completely different setup and the reliance on one bloke to kick a score is well and truly dead.

I find that with these 200cm types huge monster types that sometimes this is a transition that happens almost overnight. Often it just happens and you don't really see a great improvement for sometime but then that certain player virtually becomes a star overnight.

FWIW tom lynch was averaging a goal a game only in his third season, then in his 4th he virtually doubled his output. I'm not sure when this will happen for Boydy but I am confident it will happen at some stage.
 

Yojimbo

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fronkalicious i think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say everyone is ecstatic with the progress he's making and consider him a bargain. If he was going any better he'd have a statue out the front of Whitten Oval.
If someone spray paints the number 17 on the back of the Ted Whitten
statue the police will be coming straight to your place Pann. I salute
your conviction and as "Richo" would say VALUE pity we have to wait
so long to cash the cheque.;)
 

Pugz89

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Umm hogan !!!

I get your drift though I don't think anyone around 200cm has been close to that 2 goal a game mark.

Tom lynchs fourth season is where he really exploded with 46 goals and that magical 2 goal a game average.

Is that what we all expect from Boyd?
The 97kg guy? Yeah ok. Wasn't Boyd up near 110 when he came to us? down to around 105 now..

Tbh, for his price tag, i'd expect at least 3 goals a game average, unless he holds his own in the ruck long term. I'm on the fence in regards to if he justifies the trade and meets expectations. Tbh, i'm just happy we're having this discussion, because if we were in 2005 ish, then we may well have got a flag out of our 2008-10 run.
 

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Optimistic Dog

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As this debate on how good Boyd will be is all guess work. Right at the moment if you were Simon Dalrymple and could have your pick between the young forwards who would you pick in order

My order would be
Boyd 7
Hogan 3
Cameron 2
Paton 9
Lynch 1
McCartin 4
Daniher 5
Moore 8
Schake 6


Hope in couple of years I am proven wrong.
 

Dogsman16

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As this debate on how good Boyd will be is all guess work. Right at the moment if you were Simon Dalrymple and could have your pick between the young forwards who would you pick in order

My order would be
Boyd 7
Hogan 3
Cameron 2
Paton 9
Lynch 1
McCartin 4
Daniher 5
Moore 8
Schake 6


Hope in couple of years I am proven wrong.
Moore will be top 5. Absolutely guaranteed in my view.

McCartin won't be a better player than Boyd. McCartins lack of endurance and he is very slow for a 194cm player, all of which is covered by the fact that Riewoldt and Bruce take the best 2 defenders and the pair of them are endurance beasts. They do the lead up work up the ground and Bruce does the chop out ruck work. McCartin effectively doesn't have to leave forward 50 much if at all.

Boyd role differs greatly. He doesn't have a lead up CHF currently so he has to do the work to lead up on occasions . He also spends 40 percent of his game time in the ruck. Now I have watched his highlights from his 2014 season again and his body size is remarkably different. He was probably one of the slowest players in the Afl but at GWS that suited him. Mumford effectively had a career best season in 2014 and spent 90 percent of the game in the ruck. Throw in the fact that Jeremy Cameron and Patton did a whole heap of the lead up CHF work and you could see why Boyd could just sit in forward 50 and rag doll his opponents (which he could actually do even as an 18 year old).

Not sure who it is, might be threenewpadlocks but it's always mentioned that players don't get shorter as the game gets longer. He is actually having a greater impact in the last quarters than the others (good sign). Even his best game at GWS was against Geelong in which he took several contested marks all in the last quarter.

This seems to me that Boyd can run the game out well enough but he can't run out the quarter if you get my drift. In that he is buggered after 15 minutes of hard yards but once he has a break he has recovered well and can have another go. Full credit to our conditioning staff in be able to get him to recover better.

In the long run theses are the things are going to help him become a stronger forward target which in my view will happen.

A) getting back into the weights room and strengthening his frame, which has taken a severe decrease in strength due to his conditioning program.
B) as his conditioning improves so to should his marking concentration. Concentration is the biggest key to marking, not hand size or strength but actually wanting the ball and focusing on the mark. Boyd is to tired to do this on many occasion and subsequently he drops marks he should take.
C) Roughead taking more time in the ruck. Decreasing the need for boyd to spend a heap of time in there means he will obviously be able to run out games better.
D) the return of Crameri, or in my opinion finding another athletic marking option. Very hard to play a mixture of deep forward, high marking forward and ruck. Another marking player would mean the reduction in need for Boyd to charge up the field and provide that marking option. We obviously want Boyd deeper, which will keep him fresher.

All of those factors will make him get to where he needs to be. I have no doubt he will get there but as a fan base we are just going to have to be thick skinned to continue to ignore the external noise that will come until a 6 or more week block of good games.
 
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LittleG

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As this debate on how good Boyd will be is all guess work. Right at the moment if you were Simon Dalrymple and could have your pick between the young forwards who would you pick in order

My order would be
Boyd 7
Hogan 3
Cameron 2
Paton 9
Lynch 1
McCartin 4
Daniher 5
Moore 8
Schake 6


Hope in couple of years I am proven wrong.
My order would be
Boyd 6
Hogan 3 (maybe 12, attitude/Freo)
Cameron 2
Paton 11
Lynch 1
McCartin 10 (never got the hype)
Bruce 9
Daniher 4
Moore 8 (would be great CHB)
Schache 7
Stringer 5
There are more we could probably add to this list.
 

webbo

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How Jeremy Cameron isn't number 1 on everyone's list, staggers me. 2 seasons of above 60 goals, whereas Lynch has 2 seasons of above 40. Lynch is tracking for 60+ this season, but I've no doubt that Cameron will match that once he returns. He's an absolute freak.
In order I'd have
Cameron
Lynch
Hogan
Schache
Boyd
McCartin
Moore
Ben Brown
Patton
Daniher

The thing with key position forwards, is how many of them last if they're not good players? Are there any 200+ game key forward that aren't, at the least, good players?
 

ScragCity

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1. Lynch (higher ceiling than Cameron and Hogan imo)
2. Cameron
3. Hogan
4. Moore
5. Daniher
6. Darling
7. Patton
8. Schache
9. Boyd
10. McCartin
11. Daylight
12. McCarthy
13. Ben Brown
 

threenewpadlocks

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Boyd may have shown less but I still believe that he has a higher ceiling than just about any of them given his U/18 form was pretty much the best of any of that grouping of key forwards, and the fact he's both tall (over 201cm) and big (across the hips and shoulders unlike the Daniher types). Basically that mixture of potential and physical conditioning is better than any of the others.

I'm not saying that he is going to be better - in fact it's less likely given that past form at AFL level is the best barometer for future AFL form, and Boyd's had less exposed good form. I just believe when it's all said and done when they're say 28, 29 years old (which granted in't until 8 or 9 years away) Boyd has as good as a chance at being a dominant key forward just on the basis he had the better junior form and he's got the best natural physical dimensions out of all of them.
 

SlimShaddy

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Boyd may have shown less but I still believe that he has a higher ceiling than just about any of them given his U/18 form was pretty much the best of any of that grouping of key forwards, and the fact he's both tall (over 201cm) and big (across the hips and shoulders unlike the Daniher types). Basically that mixture of potential and physical conditioning is better than any of the others.

I'm not saying that he is going to be better - in fact it's less likely given that past form at AFL level is the best barometer for future AFL form, and Boyd's had less exposed good form. I just believe when it's all said and done when they're say 28, 29 years old (which granted in't until 8 or 9 years away) Boyd has as good as a chance at being a dominant key forward just on the basis he had the better junior form and he's got the best natural physical dimensions out of all of them.
I think we should just wait until next year when Boyd is surrounded by Crameri, Stringer and Dickson. There are many players in the team who have had stinkers of a season (by their lofty standards) to date but the team is functioning very well - which is quite scary when you think about it.
 

go you pups

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The more and more I think about it, the more we miss Dickson and Crameri and it shows on Boyd and Stringer with us being predictable entering 50. Stringer imo is struggling more than Boyd, Boyd just needs to start marking the bloody thing.

We've been lucky to get a few midfield goals this year as an alternative, but the brand of football we've played forward of centre has been ugly
 
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