MVP Tommy Boyd - The Grand Final Enigma

[bobby2]

If you can't mark overhead as a big fwd not sure how that is competent.

Cordy doesn't really mark much as a forward either, but I'd back both of them to bring the ball to ground consistently for a decent crumber. Both are then good for their size once the ball hits the ground. I'd say Cordy is slightly better once the ball hits the ground, but he's not as good at backing up in the ruck.

For me, Boyd's versatility substantially increases his worth. Imagine if English went down to injury early in a big game like Roughy did in the 16 prelim. If our other key position players were schache, Cordy, naughton, young and Adams, we'd be in deep s**t. None of them can ruck. Throw Boyd into that mix though and we're ok.

 

[BRWB]

Cordy doesn't really mark much as a forward either, but I'd back both of them to bring the ball to ground consistently for a decent crumber. Both are then good for their size once the ball hits the ground. I'd say Cordy is slightly better once the ball hits the ground, but he's not as good at backing up in the ruck.

For me, Boyd's versatility substantially increases his worth. Imagine if English went down to injury early in a big game like Roughy did in the 16 prelim. If our other key position players were schache, Cordy, naughton, young and Adams, we'd be in deep s**t. None of them can ruck. Throw Boyd into that mix though and we're ok.

Versatility is fine if you have a one wood...

What's Boyds?

At best he just broke even with Stanley who is shite in the ruck and has been walloped by anyone decent.

He can't mark - 12 contested marks in 20 games post GF.

Honestly, Boyd would not get a game at most clubs.

 

[Doggy Dan]

Man, this guy is frustrating. He is so close to being a genuinely good player but he just can’t finish off his hard work.

His ruckwork is much like his marking in that he just jumps way too early. I don’t know if the guy has depth perception issues or something but I can’t see it improving.

He played a blinder on Friday but his ruck work was still sub par. Also he spilt what was essentially an uncontested mark 20m out. He needs to gobble those up 95% of the time before I can classify him as a very good player.

 

[bobby2]

Versatility is fine if you have a one wood...

What's Boyds?

At best he just broke even with Stanley who is shite in the ruck and has been walloped by anyone decent.

He can't mark - 12 contested marks in 20 games post GF.

Honestly, Boyd would not get a game at most clubs.

Boyd's one wood is key forward/second ruck. It's a role he'd play every week if we had a first ruck. Every premiership team for over a decade except Richmond has had someone playing this role, and most of them were no better than Boyd. One of them was Boyd himself.

 

[cecil]

A guy who can be a decent ruck while also kicking 20-30 goals a year is an insane advantage in today's game. Boyd is a year or two off being that player...

For those saying English is ahead of him in the ruck, you're being blinded by his potential rather than current output. He gets pushed off the ball too easily to be a good ruck yet

 

[DognBones]

Couldn't fault his effort in this game, was very good around the stoppages and provided a decent contest in the ruck. Still so many 'flat hand' attempts at marking providing continuing frustration.

 

[jdz101]

Boyd's one wood is key forward/second ruck. It's a role he'd play every week if we had a first ruck. Every premiership team for over a decade except Richmond has had someone playing this role, and most of them were no better than Boyd. One of them was Boyd himself.

I think one of the current issues is English is injured. Its fairly obvious that Boyd can be a very good second ruck. The forward craft still needs work but we're much better when we have him as a target up there. Even if it is just hitting his hands and getting to ground.

The best part of friday was his continued effort and almost kamikaze effort on the ball. Even during the 3rd quarter when we conceded 4 or 5 goals, he was still giving everything and throwing his weight around when a lot of our teenage mids were struggling to get near it in the contest. I always focus on guys that will continue to show that sort of effort during the s**t times in a game and he definitely demonstrated that on friday.

If he continues to show that sort of effort and passion for improving his game then he will start putting it together even more.

 

[BRWB]

A guy who can be a decent ruck while also kicking 20-30 goals a year is an insane advantage in today's game. Boyd is a year or two off being that player...

For those saying English is ahead of him in the ruck, you're being blinded by his potential rather than current output. He gets pushed off the ball too easily to be a good ruck yet

This year English has averaged more disposals and marks than Boyd, and less than three less hitouts. and that is counting the English games where he was hampered by injury.

Maybe check your own eyes mate.

 

[Unorth]

A guy who can be a decent ruck while also kicking 20-30 goals a year is an insane advantage in today's game. Boyd is a year or two off being that player...

For those saying English is ahead of him in the ruck, you're being blinded by his potential rather than current output. He gets pushed off the ball too easily to be a good ruck yet

This season English is averaging only 2.8 less hitouts than Boyd a game despite being a twig. But he gets a couple more touches a game than Boyd and also averages 4.7 marks a game to Boyd's 2.7. Also has a higher disposal efficiency and just wins more clearances.

Boyd averages 0.7 more tackles a game, is able to spend 4% more time on ground, and gets 0.5 more intercepts a game. Boyd has more score involvements but would also, I imagine, have spent more time up forward.

Honestly it's probably a tossup that can go either way. English is a better mark and has better skills than Boyd. Boyd is better in some other areas. But I take English (when healthy) already being our starting ruck this season isn't just about getting him experience in that role despite him potentially being not ready- I think he could also genuinely be our best option for it. At least when it comes to what Bevo prefers from a ruck (marks around the ground, midfielder-like skills, mobility).

 

[BRWB]

This season English is averaging only 2.8 less hitouts than Boyd a game despite being a twig. But he gets a couple more touches a game than Boyd and also averages 4.7 marks a game to Boyd's 2.7. Also has a higher disposal efficiency and just wins more clearances.

Boyd averages 0.7 more tackles a game, is able to spend 4% more time on ground, and gets 0.5 more intercepts a game. Boyd has more score involvements but would also, I imagine, have spent more time up forward.

Honestly it's probably a tossup that can go either way. English is a better mark and has better skills than Boyd. Boyd is better in some other areas. But I take English (when healthy) already being our starting ruck this season isn't just about getting him experience in that role despite him potentially being not ready- I think he could also genuinely be our best option for it. At least when it comes to what Bevo prefers from a ruck (marks around the ground, midfielder-like skills, mobility).

Spot on a fit English has already overtaken Boyd as a following ruck....of course Boyd is big and young and needs time...yet English is bigger and two yrs younger.

 

[jdz101]

Spot on a fit English has already overtaken Boyd as a following ruck....of course Boyd is big and young and needs time...yet English is bigger and two yrs younger.

Why are you using one to s**t-rag the other when the obvious plan moving forward is to have both?

 

[cecil]

Maybe check your own eyes mate.

Why the hostility? Just because someone has a differing point of view doesn't mean you need to be combative. I'll reply to the rest later

 

[BRWB]

Why the hostility? Just because someone has a differing point of view doesn't mean you need to be combative. I'll reply to the rest later

No hostility mate. But you're the guy who suggested people differing to you had been 'blinded' - just responding in kind to see how you felt being on the receiving end...

 

[BRWB]

Why are you using one to s**t-rag the other when the obvious plan moving forward is to have both?

Sincerely doubt Boyd can play a predominant fwd role as he cant mark when fwd and offers zero pressure unlike Cordy.

So where does Boyd play if English is playing ruck?

Really doubt he plays at all unless he improves massively.

 

[jdz101]

Sincerely doubt Boyd can play a predominant fwd role as he cant mark when fwd and offers zero pressure unlike Cordy.

So where does Boyd play if English is playing ruck?

Really doubt he plays at all unless he improves massively.

We'll see. Still at this point we're pissing in the wind trying to predict what might happen.

You're obviously willing to die on this hill and fair enough, there's a solid body of evidence both ways from the first 50 games.

 

[BRWB]

We'll see. Still at this point we're pissing in the wind trying to predict what might happen.

You're obviously willing to die on this hill and fair enough, there's a solid body of evidence both ways from the first 50 games.

Nah GF aside I'm not seeing it. But I guess we will see.

Nothing against Boyd and not referring to you, but the repackaging and excusing of Boyd's mostly mediocre body of work in here is equally Orwellian and bemusing.

Truly Jong like over praise in here.

The youth and size excuse is shown to be the crock it is when Boyd is compared to the bigger and younger English whose numbers already outstrip Boyd.

People here have even sunk to hoping for netball zone rule changes to help Boyd....sheesh

 

[jdz101]

Nah GF aside I'm not seeing it. But I guess we will see.

Nothing against Boyd and not referring to you, but the repackaging and excusing of Boyd's mostly mediocre body of work in here is equally Orwellian and bemusing.

Truly Jong like over praise in here.

The youth and size excuse is shown to be the crock it is when Boyd is compared to the bigger and younger English whose numbers already outstrip Boyd.

People here have even sunk to hoping for netball zone rule changes to help Boyd....sheesh

I think there has been 5-10 really good games from Boyd. The rest has been pretty ordinary. I don't think we can point to the grand final as his only good game.

All players develop at a different rate. Just because English looks like player X and Boyd after 50 games doesn't quite look like player Y doesn't really mean much. Its not outside a usual development curve for a player his size to show the odd flash and maybe only have 5 or 10 good to decent games in their first 50. I don't deny his body of work has been mediocre so far though. Still doesn't look in shape to me. That's a reasonably recurring theme for our club over the past 2 years. Blows my mind how unsuitable for football Libba, Clay Smith, Boyd, Stringer, and various others have looked over that time.

It's also not Orwellian to hope a player from your footy team does well and want to speak it into existence, its pretty much a standard line of thinking from most footy supporters and sports fans in general. You're generally going to encounter a fair amount of passionate opposition if you're intent on giving your two bob on Boyd. Just like I do with Schache.

 

[BRWB]

I think there has been 5-10 really good games from Boyd. The rest has been pretty ordinary. I don't think we can point to the grand final as his only good game.

All players develop at a different rate. Just because English looks like player X and Boyd after 50 games doesn't quite look like player Y doesn't really mean much. Its not outside a usual development curve for a player his size to show the odd flash and maybe only have 5 or 10 good to decent games in their first 50. I don't deny his body of work has been mediocre so far though. Still doesn't look in shape to me. That's a reasonably recurring theme for our club over the past 2 years. Blows my mind how unsuitable for football Libba, Clay Smith, Boyd, Stringer, and various others have looked over that time.

It's also not Orwellian to hope a player from your footy team does well and want to speak it into existence, its pretty much a standard line of thinking from most footy supporters and sports fans in general. You're generally going to encounter a fair amount of passionate opposition if you're intent on giving your two bob on Boyd. Just like I do with Schache.

Agree to disagree a bit, but all good I just see reality being a fair way from what is regularly presented here as fact on Boyd. But as you say if the opinions here are read through a lens of hope rather than reality then it makes it more understandable, I guess.

 

[cecil]

No hostility mate. But you're the guy who suggested people differing to you had been 'blinded' - just responding in kind to see how you felt being on the receiving end...

Blinded by the undoubted talent English has. Hardly a negative thing, it was not meant to be condescending. Merely pointing out people are struck by his potential and are judging his present on that, rather than his actual current contribution.

I am a fan of Boyd over English at the moment because of his competitive. English may have eerily similar stats, but gets pushed from too many contests against guys like Sandi/Martin/Witts etc at the moment. It is these contests which Boyd may not get a stat, but he has the frame to influence the contest and actually halves them and brings others into the play. I can't remember who pointed it out originally, but Boyd has this innate ability to keep play continuing and get the ball moving forward. It's an impressive trait for a big man because a lot of the time a ruckman can be the end of a possession change. I think because of that, if we were playing a grand final tomorrow with a full team to select from then Boyd would be the #1 ruck over English all things equal. That said, I would prefer English getting decent periods of game time at the moment, because he will improve quickly and I full expect him to be the #1 ruck in 18 months time.

If you're looking at stats, these show what I mean:
Contested possession percentage: Boyd 54.7 to English 43.6
Goal Assists: Boyd 5 to English 0
Hitout win percentage: Boyd 34.6% to English 29.4% (really shows that although English is taller he lacks the strength atm)
1%: Boyd 4.8 to English 4
Boyd 50% more score launches


Long term I see Boyd becoming the #2 ruck, while also playing large minutes forward. In our current set up he would take Naughtons place (with him taking Trengoves spot back), and line up with Schache playing as a link up tall (ala Adelaides Tom Lynch), and Cordy as a combative presence down there. I think he'd be good for 30-40 goals a year after 2 years in that position, which would just about make him the best in the league at it. Furthermore, after all this time playing as the #1 ruck, he should absolutely wipe the floor with most oppositions relief ruck.

 

[Mattdougie]

Nah GF aside I'm not seeing it. But I guess we will see.

Nothing against Boyd and not referring to you, but the repackaging and excusing of Boyd's mostly mediocre body of work in here is equally Orwellian and bemusing.

Truly Jong like over praise in here.

The youth and size excuse is shown to be the crock it is when Boyd is compared to the bigger and younger English whose numbers already outstrip Boyd.

People here have even sunk to hoping for netball zone rule changes to help Boyd....sheesh

Hmmmm I actually thought he battled really well Friday and was one of his better efforts.

He will never be defined by his stats as he simply will never be a huge stat gatherer no matter where he plays.

And to say apart from his GF he hasn’t played an excellent game is blatantly wrong. Without His 2016 prelim effort we don’t have that flag

 

[Pannalstaroz]

Could he end up our version of Ottens?

 

[footyfan000001]

Once he starts mitting a few big marks more often we’ll all be happy.

 

[bullish23]

Once he starts mitting a few big marks more often we’ll all be happy.

Amen brother

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

He is starting to see the game better and is directing traffic better through the middle with some great handballs out of trouble. Notice that Boyd was the one who smashed the ball back into play when Wally had that shot for goal that fell short in the last... punched it back into play directly to Gowers who ‘Jackie Channed’ it. That bit of play was like the Harlem Globetrotters and Boyd created that out of nothing.

 

[ossie_21]

Once he starts mitting a few big marks more often we’ll all be happy.

I reckon he’d clunk more down forward if he isn’t gassed from rucking most of the game. Sometimes he misses marks he should take, but people also lose sight of the fact he’s so big that the defenders/s are scragging him towards an inch of entering him. If he can’t get his arms free or free early enough to be in a comfortable position, it makes it harder to mark the ball