Tony Lockett was better than Wayne Carey or Ablett Snr

Evolved1

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I remember my ex girlfriend's best friend was starting to get into Aussie Rules and she told me she asked about thirty people "Why do they call Gary Ablett God?". No word of a lie, according to her, they all said the same thing - "Because he is". I told her the same thing, which prompted her to tell me about the other 29 people. This was before he took his break and in SA too where the love for the V was non existent.
Ablettanity is the most popular faith in Victoria; we believe in God and his son. South Australians are wicked heathens.
 

Evolved1

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I just don't understand why you wouldn't rate the great defenders. It was difficult back to then to play on a supremely gifted athlete. There was a bit more space for the forward to work with which made it even tougher for a defender to stay with them. I honestly believe that if Chris Langford played in the game today, we would be watching a Jeremy McGovern type but with even better accountability.

What exactly makes today's defender more complete than the defenders of the 80's and 90's?
I didn't say I don't rate them. I just don't rate them as highly as the great forwards.

Negating an opponent is far easier than being a playmaker. Matty Scarlett blurs the lines a bit.
 

Catsnlakers

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Shows that he was a flat track bully who beat up on bottom 4 sides
Ablett kicked 1031 goals from 248 matches....In finals he kicked 64 goals from 16 matches....Just in case you didn’t know, that averages out very similar, which is good going for finals by any metric. Thus proving he was as consistent against the best teams as he was the weaker teams....Even Jason Dunstall who played in one of the best teams of all time didn’t average 4 goals a game in finals!
 

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Evolved1

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Ablett kicked 1031 goals from 248 matches....In finals he kicked 64 goals from 16 matches....Just in case you didn’t know, that averages out very similar, which is good going for finals by any metric. Thus proving he was as consistent against the best teams as he was the weaker teams....Even Jason Dunstall who played in one of the best teams of all time didn’t average 4 goals a game in finals!
You're debating someone who believes Jack Riewoldt has a claim to the title of GOAT if he wins another Coleman medal.

Keep that in mind!;)
 

Catsnlakers

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Fair points, but I remember Ablett taking us to the cleaners many times as well. I can't recall Essendon being a particularly strong defensive side during my time as a fan.

If you do the stats for Ablett, I wouldn't be surprised to see Essendon right up there as one of the teams he feasted on most.

This doesn't seem to be a popular opinion here, but I don't rate great defenders as highly as great forwards regardless of the outcome of individual duels. I think defense is an easier role to play, especially during the 80's-90's era when the role of defenders was one-dimensional.
The famous Salmon match in 1993 gets talked about a lot, but really his 89 PF against you guys was as close to perfection as you will see, especially considering what happened two weeks prior when you smashed us. I’m pretty sure after that match Tim Watson said something along the lines of there’s great players & then there’s Gary Ablett.
 

Evolved1

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The famous Salmon match in 1993 gets talked about a lot, but really his 89 PF against you guys was as close to perfection as you will see, especially considering what happened two weeks prior when you smashed us. I’m pretty sure after that match Tim Watson said something along the lines of there’s great players & then there’s Gary Ablett.
Gaz destroyed us so many times that I have trouble distinguishing between games these days. The old school shootouts were fun, regardless of who won.
 

catscollector

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The famous Salmon match in 1993 gets talked about a lot, but really his 89 PF against you guys was as close to perfection as you will see, especially considering what happened two weeks prior when you smashed us. I’m pretty sure after that match Tim Watson said something along the lines of there’s great players & then there’s Gary Ablett.
Round 18 - 1990 he had three different opponents. Hamilton, Watson and Daniher. Beat them all kicking 8 goals and guess what, we still found a way to lose the game.
 

Evolved1

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And McKernan- he was a rare player as well.
Billy Brownless and Gavin Excell were both as good as Horse. John Longmire's Coleman winning tally was lower than multiple Coleman winner Fraser Gehrig's in 2004, just for comparison.

Corey McKernan had one brilliant year bookended by multiple years of undrachievement. The only thing rare about him was 1996, which in hindsight was an outlier. It's best to think of him as the predecessor to Shane Woewoden.
 

Vdubs

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Billy Brownless and Gavin Excell were both as good as Horse. John Longmire's Coleman winning tally was lower than multiple Coleman winner Fraser Gehrig's in 2004, just for comparison.

Corey McKernan had one brilliant year bookended by multiple years of undrachievement. The only thing rare about him was 1996, which in hindsight was an outlier. It's best to think of him as the predecessor to Shane Woewoden.
So how did Ablett average 111 goals a year for his last 4 years when he was FINALLY a full-time FF, surrounded by such stars?
You didn't mention Bruce Lindner or Barry Stoneham
 

Vdubs

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In Carey’s case, he seemed to single handedly drag his team over the line to two flags

let’s just say plugger and Ablett had other priorities
Absolutely incorrect
Was ok in their win v Swans(Archer, McKernan, Stevens ahead of him), and not even in the best in their win v Blues.
No NS medals.
Ablett won a NS in a losing team.
 

PhatBoy

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Billy Brownless and Gavin Excell were both as good as Horse. John Longmire's Coleman winning tally was lower than multiple Coleman winner Fraser Gehrig's in 2004, just for comparison.

Corey McKernan had one brilliant year bookended by multiple years of undrachievement. The only thing rare about him was 1996, which in hindsight was an outlier. It's best to think of him as the predecessor to Shane Woewoden.
Gavin Excell was as good as Longmire? Get off the pipe mate.
Brownless you could MAYBE mount a case for as being in a similar sphere
 

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catscollector

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Gavin Excell was as good as Longmire? Get off the pipe mate.
Brownless you could MAYBE mount a case for as being in a similar sphere
Brownless similar sphere to McKernan?

Not even close. McKernan was a champion.
Won an MVP, should have won a Brownlow (when he polled most votes but was suspended), B&F winner, over 300 goals and one of the best contested marks of the 90's.
Brownless was a great mark but he's not close to McKernan overall.

Stoneham in his prime is possibly comparable but he didn't maintain it long enough due to injury.
 

PhatBoy

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Brownless similar sphere to McKernan?

Not even close. McKernan was a champion.
Won an MVP, should have won a Brownlow (when he polled most votes but was suspended), B&F winner, over 300 goals and one of the best contested marks of the 90's.
Brownless was a great mark but he's not close to McKernan overall.

Stoneham in his prime is possibly comparable but he didn't maintain it long enough due to injury.
To Longmire. I think he’s inferior anyway but he’s closer to the argument than Excell
 

catscollector

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To Longmire. I think he’s inferior anyway but he’s closer to the argument than Excell
Yeh no disrespect to Exell but he only managed 58 games.

Longmire had 500 goals on the board after 180 odd games before spending his last season and a bit as a key defender.
Really not even sure if supporters watched some of these past players or if they look at the statistics to form judgement.

Exell was one a glaring issues Geelong faced in the 80's. When games got heated and testing out there, some blokes wanted no part of it while only a very select few would roll up the sleeves and go in for their mates.
 

Asifhe Givashe

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Not really. Had a few really top years but he well short of genuine champion status.
Garbage.

1994 Rising Star Winner
Sensational in 1995 Finals
1996 AFL MVP + Brownlow + Norm Smith IMO 29 pos in GF.
1997 Knee inj Rd1 + Shoulder reco (never quite the same) but still played ripper Semi Final v West Coast
1998 not his best year
1999 3 awesome goals in the GF like ******* huge, one in particular from 70 was outrageous.
Then it went a bit downhill but still managed a bnf at Carlton before coming back to us for a few games, including a remarkable effort in Arch’s 250th.

Was the 2nd best player in a team that played in 7 straight prelims or better.

Champion footballer who was it his best in finals, especially BIG finals.
 

Kimbo

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Was held kickless to halftime, but did play an important role in the second half when he moved away from SOS and into the midfield.
It was 5-10 minutes, I think, but swung the momentum back our way and, apparently iirc, took the decision himself.
 

Kimbo

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Brownless similar sphere to McKernan?

Not even close. McKernan was a champion.
Won an MVP, should have won a Brownlow (when he polled most votes but was suspended), B&F winner, over 300 goals and one of the best contested marks of the 90's.
Brownless was a great mark but he's not close to McKernan overall.

Stoneham in his prime is possibly comparable but he didn't maintain it long enough due to injury.
On the mark.

Re Stoneham, his best was good but he didn't have the same capacity for brilliance as McKernan. Very capable, solid and probably underrated.
 

catscollector

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On the mark.

Re Stoneham, his best was good but he didn't have the same capacity for brilliance as McKernan. Very capable, solid and probably underrated.
McKernana was much more of a classical footballer. Great pack marks, big bombs from outside 50.
I will say, he just couldn't maintain a very high standard for seasons on end like his teammate Carey.

Stoneham could have been of the best players of the 90's if he didn't break his leg. His athleticism (ran all day) and his agility was first class. The Stoneham we saw in the later 90's was a shell of the player he was.
He didn't have that same movement or the same kicking penetration. Very unfortunate to witness that injury and subsequent infections he suffered for years afterwards.
 

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