Tony Lockett was better than Wayne Carey or Ablett Snr

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Lockett never played on a defender with the athleticism or game smarts as Rance.
Langford, Silvagni, McIntosh, Fletcher?????
All athletic and high footy IQ. All Rance's size, and all had to contend with forwards far superior than what Rance has had to contend with (other than Buddy).

Where do you people come from.
Have you even watched football from yesteryear?
 
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Lockett never played on a defender with the athleticism or game smarts as Rance. Watch some games from the 80s and look at the defenders back then, they're horrible... It's just where the runts of the litters play, and they have no idea how to defend.. they just follow their forward around like a dog on a leash and try to punch the ball. Rance is stronger, faster, MUCH MUCH fitter, better vertical leap, much much much smarter than any defender Lockett played on, that's just reality as much as it hurts your nostalgic bubble.
Steve Silvagni, Chris Langford, Dustin Fletcher, Ben Hart, Mick Martyn, Danny Southern, Alastair Lynch, Gary Pert, Danny Frawley, Ben Graham, Rod Carter .... runts who had no idea how to defend?
 

Vdubs

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Lol when you dominated a team so much I don't think you would care if you let one of their players kick a few meaningless goals, after all it is a team game
Why are you continually pretending you don't rate Ablett?
You know damn well he's the most awesome player to have ever played against your team, and every other team of his era.
You are allowed to admit. Any reasonable Tigers supporter who witnessed his feats either admits he is the GOAT, or is so traumatised by his feats that they have a form of PTSD, highlighted by denial of his deity, and farcical criticism and puerile comments.
Get some therapy. And that's allowing for your recent 2 flags.
The lack of GF success is immaterial, as we would not have made any GF without him.
 

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Kappa

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He’s much much fitter because every campaigner playing the sport is much much fitter.

How do people not understand this

Do you really think in this day and age, with fitness programs, academies, three month pre seasons, that Lockett wouldn’t be faster and more athletic and fitter if he played today?
Yes and he'd lose his number 1 strength and have to play a completely different style and in the end his output would probably be below modern day great forwards.
 

Kappa

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Steve Silvagni, Chris Langford, Dustin Fletcher, Ben Hart, Mick Martyn, Danny Southern, Alastair Lynch, Gary Pert, Danny Frawley, Ben Graham, Rod Carter .... runts who had no idea how to defend?
Go look at VFL defending in the 80s, there's ZERO tactics or cohesion, it's almost entirely "Follow your man and punch the ball" with few exceptions. These are the days when the peak of coaching strategy was "KICK THE BLODOY THING LONG TO THE FULL FORWARD !!!" The VFL was an extremely amateurish comp with a weak talent pool of part time athletes, and defenders were mostly just the worst players who couldn't play anywhere else.

So yes, relative to modern defenders, those guys weren't much chop athletically or in game intelligence.
 

Kappa

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Langford, Silvagni, McIntosh, Fletcher?????
All athletic and high footy IQ. All Rance's size, and all had to contend with forwards far superior than what Rance has had to contend with (other than Buddy).

Where do you people come from.
Have you even watched football from yesteryear?
How can you not comprehend that the game has come along in MASSIVE leaps and bounds since even the year 2000, with a much much bigger talent pool, better coaches, better facilities and game knowledge than ever before.

Those guys were great for their eras,but the modern players are the best the game has ever produced, without argument. If you're looking for the all time greats, look at the best players in the past 10 years, no amount of nostalgia can change that.
 
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Go look at VFL defending in the 80s, there's ZERO tactics or cohesion, it's almost entirely "Follow your man and punch the ball" with few exceptions. These are the days when the peak of coaching strategy was "KICK THE BLODOY THING LONG TO THE FULL FORWARD !!!" The VFL was an extremely amateurish comp with a weak talent pool of part time athletes, and defenders were mostly just the worst players who couldn't play anywhere else.

So yes, relative to modern defenders, those guys weren't much chop athletically or in game intelligence.
I looked at it. I lived through it. There were some very strong, very talented full backs at the time.

You talk about the standard of the competition and them being part time athletes. Lockett was a part time footballer too wasn't he? They were all on an equal playing field. Comparing an athlete today to the players back then is silly. If you placed Rance back then on Lockett, he would be a part time footballer too, and he would play entirely one on one in open forward lines. Place Lockett into today's football, and his quick leading and physicality combined with today's grounds, tactics and fitness regimes could very well still see him dominating.

If you want to time travel, you have to make the appropriate allowances.
 

Kappa

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I looked at it. I lived through it. There were some very strong, very talented full backs at the time.

You talk about the standard of the competition and them being part time athletes. Lockett was a part time footballer too wasn't he? They were all on an equal playing field. Comparing an athlete today to the players back then is silly. If you placed Rance back then on Lockett, he would be a part time footballer too, and he would play entirely one on one in open forward lines. Place Lockett into today's football, and his quick leading and physicality combined with today's grounds, tactics and fitness regimes could very well still see him dominating.

If you want to time travel, you have to make the appropriate allowances.
Interesting how it's silly to point out that modern footballers are better than part time amatuers from a suburban competition, but when you say the part time amateurs are better it's not silly? For... reasons ? Nostalgia? Things were better back in my day?

If you don't want to compare that's fine, then don't say the amateurs from the 80s are better than today's players. It's a two-way street.
 

PhatBoy

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Interesting how it's silly to point out that modern footballers are better than part time amatuers from a suburban competition, but when you say the part time amateurs are better it's not silly? For... reasons ? Nostalgia? Things were better back in my day?

If you don't want to compare that's fine, then don't say the amateurs from the 80s are better than today's players. It's a two-way street.
Um, no one has said that though?

People universally acknowledge that Franklin stacks up in any era, Cox is one of the great ruckmen of all time, Scarlett has been retired only 7 years and is in the conversation as the best fullback of all time, Enright has been retired only a few years and I’ve heard him touted as the best back pocket of all time along with Bruce Doull, the cats’ current forward pocket is literally in the conversation as the best actual player ever, and St Kilda have only recently lost arguably the greatest gut running tall forward in 123 years of footy.
 

woota

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Yes and he'd lose his number 1 strength and have to play a completely different style and in the end his output would probably be below modern day great forwards.
So much this. What made Lockett a formidable opponent was his size and bulk. His role only required quick bursts of speed over short distances - the rest of the time he just hung around in the forward 50 waiting for the ball to come to him. Lockett in today's era would not be allowed to be a 120 kg lumbering hulk. Traditional full forwards like that don't exist anymore. In today's game he would be required to be a supremely fit athlete playing a different role and he would not be able to dominate the way he did in his era. The proof is in the pudding - remember Lockett's 2002 comeback and what a dismal failure that was? He was trimmed down and in the best shape of his life, only to his detriment.
 

PhatBoy

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So much this. What made Lockett a formidable opponent was his size and bulk. His role only required quick bursts of speed over short distances - the rest of the time he just hung around in the forward 50 waiting for the ball to come to him. Lockett in today's era would not be allowed to be a 120 kg lumbering hulk. Traditional full forwards like that don't exist anymore. In today's game he would be required to be a supremely fit athlete playing a different role and he would not be able to dominate the way he did in his era. The proof is in the pudding - remember Lockett's 2002 comeback and what a dismal failure that was? He was trimmed down and in the best shape of his life, only to his detriment.

He was 36 years old and 4 seasons out of the sport.

Is this a serious post? THATS your argument?
 

Kappa

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Um, no one has said that though?

People universally acknowledge that Franklin stacks up in any era, Cox is one of the great ruckmen of all time, Scarlett has been retired only 7 years and is in the conversation as the best fullback of all time, Enright has been retired only a few years and I’ve heard him touted as the best back pocket of all time along with Bruce Doull, the cats’ current forward pocket is literally in the conversation as the best actual player ever, and St Kilda have only recently lost arguably the greatest gut running tall forward in 123 years of footy.
Lol, the entire thread that i read was discussing who out of Lockett Ablett or Carey was the best of all time, lots of posters were saying they are all far better than modern forwards, you have no clue.
 

woota

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He was 36 years old and 4 seasons out of the sport.

Is this a serious post? THATS your argument?
Yes, that's my argument, and other people at the time were also making the same observation - that by slimming down and coming back that trim, he had forfeited the very thing that had made him so dominant, his weight and bulk. Lockett played a very specific niche role as a traditional full forward and that's why he could use his weight to his advantage. The days of big, fat full forwards like sumich, cummings, and plugger are long gone. These days, all players are required to be supremely fit endurance athletes.
 

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Yes, that's my argument, and other people at the time were also making the same observation - that by slimming down and coming back that trim, he had forfeited the very thing that had made him so dominant, his weight and bulk. Lockett played a very specific niche role as a traditional full forward and that's why he could use his weight to his advantage. The days of big, fat full forwards like sumich, cummings, and plugger are long gone. These days, all players are required to be supremely fit endurance athletes.
Slimming down .... AND being 36 years old and out of the sport for 4 years.
 
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Interesting how it's silly to point out that modern footballers are better than part time amatuers from a suburban competition, but when you say the part time amateurs are better it's not silly? For... reasons ? Nostalgia? Things were better back in my day?

If you don't want to compare that's fine, then don't say the amateurs from the 80s are better than today's players. It's a two-way street.
Plenty of people recognise greatness from a lot of eras. Ablett Jr, Judd, Fyfe, Franklin, Hodge, Dangerfield, Martin and newer names like Cripps. They fit or will fit into discussions with the greats from 20, 30, 40 years ago, no problem.

If you dominate what is placed in front of you, speculating on what would happen if they were in each other's eras is pointless. For a start the play they are taught the game would be relevant to the way the game is played at the time. The way you train and the balance between strength and endurance would change. The medical assistance would change.

You just can't speculate on these things.

The only thing you know for sure is how a player was rated and how their opponents were rated.
 

PhatBoy

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Lol, the entire thread that i read was discussing who out of Lockett Ablett or Carey was the best of all time, lots of posters were saying they are all far better than modern forwards, you have no clue.
They are, Franklin aside. And they’re far better than the generation before.

That’s not revisionism or ignoring the present. It’s fact.
 

Kappa

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They are, Franklin aside. And they’re far better than the generation before.

That’s not revisionism or ignoring the present. It’s fact.
What an incredibly stupid use of the word "fact".

Plenty of people recognise greatness from a lot of eras. Ablett Jr, Judd, Fyfe, Franklin, Hodge, Dangerfield, Martin and newer names like Cripps. They fit or will fit into discussions with the greats from 20, 30, 40 years ago, no problem.

If you dominate what is placed in front of you, speculating on what would happen if they were in each other's eras is pointless. For a start the play they are taught the game would be relevant to the way the game is played at the time. The way you train and the balance between strength and endurance would change. The medical assistance would change.

You just can't speculate on these things.

The only thing you know for sure is how a player was rated and how their opponents were rated.
The posts I was responding to (the ones taking up the start of this thread) don't mention any modern players really, and simply state the players from the 80s are the best ever. Instead of telling those people "you can't compare eras", you only seem to point that out when I say modern players are better than amateur / part time players from a strategy-less suburban competition.
 

Monkey King

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The posts I was responding to (the ones taking up the start of this thread) don't mention any modern players really, and simply state the players from the 80s are the best ever. Instead of telling those people "you can't compare eras", you only seem to point that out when I say modern players are better than amateur / part time players from a strategy-less suburban competition.
30 years from now there will be some dummy claiming a player the talent of Josh Jenkins is better than Buddy because of some shift in training standards and scientific understanding of preparation. Maybe when you get to this broader context, you’ll better appreciate how utterly lame this argument is.

As far as forwards go, they’re right. Lockett, Ablett and Carey are better than any forward running around today. Buddy is the only one who even comes close. Now for those who didn’t get to see them, this may sound unbelievable, but all I can say is sorry you missed out. If it makes you feel any better, the midfielders of this generation are more outstanding. Diesel Williams aside, there’d be half a dozen I’d choose this century before looking at 80-90’s players.
 

Kappa

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30 years from now there will be some dummy claiming a player the talent of Josh Jenkins is better than Buddy because of some shift in training standards and scientific understanding of preparation. Maybe when you get to this broader context, you’ll better appreciate how utterly lame this argument is.

As far as forwards go, they’re right. Lockett, Ablett and Carey are better than any forward running around today. Buddy is the only one who even comes close. Now for those who didn’t get to see them, this may sound unbelievable, but all I can say is sorry you missed out. If it makes you feel any better, the midfielders of this generation are more outstanding. Diesel Williams aside, there’d be half a dozen I’d choose this century before looking at 80-90’s players.
Do you think it's possible, that rather than forwards getting worse over 30 years, that in actual fact that the game has just changed and defenders have gotten far far better... and forwards are actually better now (obviously), however they can't dominate like before because the game is actually professional now and not simply about leaving a full forward in the goal square by himself and kicking long to him every time you get the ball....

Or is that completely mind blowing for you..?
 

Monkey King

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Or is that completely mind blowing for you..?
I’ve followed footy since the 70’s. Why would changing standards be mind blowing to me? I don’t need to imagine or guess at this stuff mate, I watched it happen.

Yours is a well worn boring kinda story, that everything modern must be better than what preceded it. It’s just ignorance, sorry to be so blunt; but you just don’t know what you don’t know.

Just wait 20 or so years from when some young fella claims “future Josh Jenkins” as better than Buddy for the same naive reasons you present here. Maybe then you’ll better understand how silly your argument is.
 

PhatBoy

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Do you think it's possible, that rather than forwards getting worse over 30 years, that in actual fact that the game has just changed and defenders have gotten far far better... and forwards are actually better now (obviously), however they can't dominate like before because the game is actually professional now and not simply about leaving a full forward in the goal square by himself and kicking long to him every time you get the ball....

Or is that completely mind blowing for you..?
Defences have gotten better in general. Not defenders.
In the 80s Chris Langford stood above everyone else. In the 90s it was Silvagni, the 2000s it was Scarlett, Fletcher straddled both eras and then it was Rance.

Forwards aren’t better now because aside from Franklin there hasn’t been three freaks (four really - Dunstall) come along in the same 10 year period like they did from 83 onwards when Ablett debuted.
 

dean33

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People drastically overrate Carey on account of that line by Leigh Matthews. Not saying he wasnt a champion but he wasnt GOAT.

Best forward I've ever seen? Be a tie between Ablett Snr and Daicos. Lockett easily the most consistent but at the time you'd be scratching your head wondering how God and the Wizard did it.
Plugger definitely best goal kicker of all time however best player I’ve seen was Carey without a doubt. I was too young to see Matthews in his prime however. Ablett senior was the freakiest and most gifted player I’ve seen and on his day was unstoppable while his son was right up there for a number of years. Very hard to compare eras however as today’s game is completely different to the game in the 90’s as the 90’s was completely different to the 70’s etc.
 

Monkey King

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Plugger definitely best goal kicker of all time however best player I’ve seen was Carey without a doubt … Very hard to compare eras however as today’s game is completely different to the game in the 90’s as the 90’s was completely different to the 70’s etc.
I think of Patrick Cripps performance against the Lions last season ... this level of influence on a game isn't wielded by many players too often; it's a special level of performance. I saw Carey play to that level more than any other player I've seen. No player today compares.

Yeah 1970's football was a far cry from 1990's football. The young fella may figure it out in about 20 years from now when their horizons have broadened.
 

PhatBoy

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I think of Patrick Cripps performance against the Lions last season ... this level of influence on a game isn't wielded by many players too often; it's a special level of performance. I saw Carey play to that level more than any other player I've seen. No player today compares.

Yeah 1970's football was a far cry from 1990's football. The young fella may figure it out in about 20 years from now when their horizons have broadened.

This isn’t a ‘my player is better because he played for my club’ argument because I think there are plenty of arguments that can be made for Carey over Ablett, or Lockett or Matthews for that matter.

But I think Carey’s personality has a little bit to do with his standing. He was cocky, arrogant, charismatic, he loved being the centre of attention when the game was in its throes and I think that kind of enhances the whole image that he would pick his team up and carry them over the line thing.
 

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