Tony Lockett was better than Wayne Carey or Ablett Snr

Monkey King

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But I think Carey’s personality has a little bit to do with his standing. He was cocky, arrogant, charismatic, he loved being the centre of attention when the game was in its throes and I think that kind of enhances the whole image that he would pick his team up and carry them over the line thing.
The ability to influence games came long before the reputation. I had my eye on Carey since 92'. I was miffed when North made him captain as I was hoping Carlton would poach him. The Blues were blessed that he only got hold of SOS once, but I'd go and watch North just to see this guy play. His ability to consistently impact games was unlike any player I've seen. Parko reckons Matthews was just as good, but I only remember Matthews as an old codger.

I do agree he had a presence that would've enhanced his image, but that same presence also helped his teammates walk taller.
 

dean33

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This isn’t a ‘my player is better because he played for my club’ argument because I think there are plenty of arguments that can be made for Carey over Ablett, or Lockett or Matthews for that matter.

But I think Carey’s personality has a little bit to do with his standing. He was cocky, arrogant, charismatic, he loved being the centre of attention when the game was in its throes and I think that kind of enhances the whole image that he would pick his team up and carry them over the line thing.
The thing with Carey is that often he actually did pick his team up and carry them to victory. Countless times I watched games in the balance and he would rip it apart in 15 mins. The best I saw.
 

Nuggets73

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Lockett Is the Goat. **** knows how many goals he would have kicked if he had not missed near on 100 games through injuries and suspension. Man was a 112kg Highly skilled Powerhouse Beast. Freak of a player.
You’re aware that prior to his knee injury, Peter Hudson was averaging 6 goals a game?
Not doubting Lockett was an absolute gun, and definitely in the conversation - but you’re way too quick to write off Coleman, Coventry and Hudson
 

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Rusty Brookes

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Plugger definitely best goal kicker of all time however best player I’ve seen was Carey without a doubt. I was too young to see Matthews in his prime however. Ablett senior was the freakiest and most gifted player I’ve seen and on his day was unstoppable while his son was right up there for a number of years. Very hard to compare eras however as today’s game is completely different to the game in the 90’s as the 90’s was completely different to the 70’s etc.
Everyone's going to have different criteria for determining who the "best is". I have no issue with people nominating Lockett - I wouldn't necessarily agree but there's a strong enough argument and his record more than holds up. Again, I have no issue with Ablett, Carey et all being nominatedas GOAT. I still go with Matthews because a) I saw games where he destroyed opposition teams even in the twilight of his career and b) I haven't seen another player that could turn the outcome of a game off his own boot more than Lethal and c) he delivered in a major way in the finals he played. People might have other criteria for determining who they believe the GOAT is - and that's fine by me. Lockett definitely belongs in the conversation.
 

Wolfgang West

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You’re aware that prior to his knee injury, Peter Hudson was averaging 6 goals a game?
Not doubting Lockett was an absolute gun, and definitely in the conversation - but you’re way too quick to write off Coleman, Coventry and Hudson
on't put words into my mouth. I'm not writing anybody off. Its an opinion. Lockett is the GOAT. The conversation is about Carey, Lockett and Ablett. Go and start a thread on the other 3 and people will have an opinion on them.
 

Brutalitops

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Yeah 1970's football was a far cry from 1990's football. The young fella may figure it out in about 20 years from now when their horizons have broadened.
I saw Carey's entire career and was well old enough to recall it. I just dont buy into the argument that his "aura" makes him the GOAT. The point makes no sense. If he's the GOAT, then what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played? By inference, does that not indicate Jako and SOS are the true GOATs?

I dont have a personal GOAT, but if I had to choose the most dominant player Ive seen its Kouta. And guess what? At his peak he ran circles around the Duck. 2000 Kouta was truly something else. Carey got put on him to nullify him and got dragged because he got embarrassed.

Of course, I understand why he's not in this discussions. Injuries and inconsistencies. But jeez, if Coleman can have a medal named after him then surely the concept of "cruelled by injuries" is a factor.
 

Vdubs

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Everyone's going to have different criteria for determining who the "best is". I have no issue with people nominating Lockett - I wouldn't necessarily agree but there's a strong enough argument and his record more than holds up. Again, I have no issue with Ablett, Carey et all being nominatedas GOAT. I still go with Matthews because a) I saw games where he destroyed opposition teams even in the twilight of his career and b) I haven't seen another player that could turn the outcome of a game off his own boot more than Lethal and c) he delivered in a major way in the finals he played. People might have other criteria for determining who they believe the GOAT is - and that's fine by me. Lockett definitely belongs in the conversation.
Great points.
Any discussion of forward GOATS should include-alphabetically- Ablett, Bartlett, Carey, (Coleman )(Coventry) Dunstall, Hudson, Lockett, Matthews and Wade. Coventry and Coleman of course were probably not seen by any of us
Are we looking at FF's only? Carey, Bartlett and Matthews are out of contention. Lockett wins.
If we are looking at forwards only, Ablett did everything FF's should do- in fact as a pure FF, his last 4 years as a player saw him average 111 goals a season. That seems unbeatable.
Looking at overall GOAT players, I would still put a blanket finish over Ablett, Carey and Matthews.
Those of us aged enough to have seen all of those mentioned should be happy just to have the memories.
 

Brutalitops

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Great points.
Any discussion of forward GOATS should include-alphabetically- Ablett, Bartlett, Carey, (Coleman )(Coventry) Dunstall, Hudson, Lockett, Matthews and Wade. Coventry and Coleman of course were probably not seen by any of us
Are we looking at FF's only? Carey, Bartlett and Matthews are out of contention. Lockett wins.
If we are looking at forwards only, Ablett did everything FF's should do- in fact as a pure FF, his last 4 years as a player saw him average 111 goals a season. That seems unbeatable.
Looking at overall GOAT players, I would still put a blanket finish over Ablett, Carey and Matthews.
Those of us aged enough to have seen all of those mentioned should be happy just to have the memories.
Bunton Snr and Jesaulenko sadly overlooked
 

Evolved1

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I saw Carey's entire career and was well old enough to recall it. I just dont buy into the argument that his "aura" makes him the GOAT. The point makes no sense. If he's the GOAT, then what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played? By inference, does that not indicate Jako and SOS are the true GOATs?

I dont have a personal GOAT, but if I had to choose the most dominant player Ive seen its Kouta. And guess what? At his peak he ran circles around the Duck. 2000 Kouta was truly something else. Carey got put on him to nullify him and got dragged because he got embarrassed.

Of course, I understand why he's not in this discussions. Injuries and inconsistencies. But jeez, if Coleman can have a medal named after him then surely the concept of "cruelled by injuries" is a factor.
Putting aside your hyperbole for a minute, is anyone actually arguing that Carey was great purely because of his aura?

Defending is easier than attacking, which is why a higher value is placed on key forwards than key backs. Wayne Carey is objectively a great of the game in his own right, while SOS and Jakovich are seen as greats purely because they nullified great forwards of their time.

Let's not forget that Carey played very effectively as a backman, while Jako was very average when he went forward.

Judd's best was the equal of Kouta's, and he played at a high level with far more consistency even while carrying injuries.
 

Evolved1

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Great points.
Any discussion of forward GOATS should include-alphabetically- Ablett, Bartlett, Carey, (Coleman )(Coventry) Dunstall, Hudson, Lockett, Matthews and Wade. Coventry and Coleman of course were probably not seen by any of us
Are we looking at FF's only? Carey, Bartlett and Matthews are out of contention. Lockett wins.
If we are looking at forwards only, Ablett did everything FF's should do- in fact as a pure FF, his last 4 years as a player saw him average 111 goals a season. That seems unbeatable.
Looking at overall GOAT players, I would still put a blanket finish over Ablett, Carey and Matthews.
Those of us aged enough to have seen all of those mentioned should be happy just to have the memories.
Good points.

I don't usually discuss players I haven't seen which is why I haven't included Matthews on my list, but some of his stats are insane. Lockett and Dunstall have claims to be included in the discussion afaic.
 

Brutalitops

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Putting aside your hyperbole for a minute, is anyone actually arguing that Carey was great purely because of his aura?
I dont think you know what hyperbole means.

Defending is easier than attacking, which is why a higher value is placed on key forwards than key backs. Wayne Carey is objectively a great of the game in his own right, while SOS and Jakovich are seen as greats purely because they nullified great forwards of their time.
Carey is indeed a great of the game. Clear cut GOAT? Nope.

Let's not forget that Carey played very effectively as a backman, while Jako was very average when he went forward.
Now do SOS :)

Judd's best was the equal of Kouta's
Lies.
 

Evolved1

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I dont think you know what hyperbole means.
Refer below. A dictionary definition couldn't be any clearer.
what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played?
Resoundly? Nope. 9 out of 10? Nope. Hyperbole.
Carey is indeed a great of the game. Clear cut GOAT? Nope.
I didn't say there was any clear cut winner.
Now do SOS :)
SOS was a decent forward, but Carey was a decent CHB too. I'd back Carey to have the better of SOS if he was playing a defensive role on SOS. I don't recall that matchup eventuating, so it's pure conjecture.
You may have forgotten what Judd was like at his best. I'll clue you in; it was before Carlton took him.
 

Brutalitops

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Refer below. A dictionary definition couldn't be any clearer.
Resoundly? Nope. 9 out of 10? Nope. Hyperbole.
Its not hyperbole if its fact. Resoundly beaten. Great battles absolute. But there was a clear cut winner in the sum of these duels and it wasnt Carey. I dont know how you can argue otherwise.

I didn't say there was any clear cut winner.
SOS was a decent forward, but Carey was a decent CHB too. I'd back Carey to have the better of SOS if he was playing a defensive role on SOS. I don't recall that matchup eventuating, so it's pure conjecture.
Agreed.

You may have forgotten what Judd was like at his best. I'll clue you in; it was before Carlton took him.
Yes, I saw Judd play at West Coast. Ive watched a lot of the Eagles and have always enjoyed them, right from the beginning. Matera is one of my favourite players and I'd rarely miss watching him play. Watching him was like watching someone on rollerskates. Deceptively quick but never seemed like he was moving fast. Didnt miss many games in the 90s.

I saw Judds best over his career. Aint a patch on Kouta at his peak. Sadly, injuries denied what truly could have been one of the best careers. We'll never know.

But back to the point, are you saying Jakovich didn't have Carey's measure?
 

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JoeyPBLUES

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Putting aside your hyperbole for a minute, is anyone actually arguing that Carey was great purely because of his aura?

Defending is easier than attacking, which is why a higher value is placed on key forwards than key backs. Wayne Carey is objectively a great of the game in his own right, while SOS and Jakovich are seen as greats purely because they nullified great forwards of their time.

Let's not forget that Carey played very effectively as a backman, while Jako was very average when he went forward.

Judd's best was the equal of Kouta's, and he played at a high level with far more consistency even while carrying injuries.
This. People forget the when he’d been held quiet Pagan would throw Carey back to CHB to get his hands on the ball. Then he’d come out and smoke dudes
 

Evolved1

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Its not hyperbole if its fact. Resoundly beaten. Great battles absolute. But there was a clear cut winner in the sum of these duels and it wasnt Carey. I dont know how you can argue otherwise.
The battles were usually fairly even, and that's generally considered as a win to SOS and Jakovich because Carey was so important to the NM game plan. The battles between Carey and Jakovich were epic.
Do you disagree with the rest? I can't see how Silvagni at FF or CHF would have had the better of Carey; Carey was stronger, at least equal in speed, and would have had the advantage that backmen of the time had through scragging forwards before the ball was near. ;)
Yes, I saw Judd play at West Coast. Ive watched a lot of the Eagles and have always enjoyed them, right from the beginning. Matera is one of my favourite players and I'd rarely miss watching him play. Watching him was like watching someone on rollerskates. Deceptively quick but never seemed like he was moving fast. Didnt miss many games in the 90s.

I saw Judds best over his career. Aint a patch on Kouta at his peak. Sadly, injuries denied what truly could have been one of the best careers. We'll never know.
Judd was an absolute jet from early on. Go back and see the way he tore Brisbane to shreds at the Gabba during one of their threepeat years. His peak was at least the equal of Kouta's, and he has Kouta easily covered in longevity and consistency. It's no contest.
But back to the point, are you saying Jakovich didn't have Carey's measure?
Jakovich had the better of their duels, but Carey was easily the better player.
 

footyfan78

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there are no other teams worthy
Bunton Snr and Jesaulenko sadly overlooked
Also Pratt and Nash. If people want to talk greatest of ALL TIME and be taken seriously got to do better than token gesture mention of names of a few stars from decades they did not see. No one here can really say who the greatest of all time is. Can only say what the best player we saw was in our opinion. Those who truly do historical research and seek out considered opinions of those that saw eras well before our life time helps develop at least a feel for how good some players were. Lockett is best full forward I seen for sure but I do not really know if he was greatest full forward ever as guys like Coleman and Pratt sound like absolute sensations of their era when reading or hearing of those times from people that lived in those times.

Best centre half forward I seen is Carey but greatest of all time could be Royce Hart or Laurie Nash. Having never seen them but knowing they were sensational players, you cannot say Carey is better and be certain of it.

Gary Ablett is most talented player I seen play the game but seen a little footage of Jesaulenko and heard enough about players like Hayden Bunton and Nash to think the most talented player of all time could well be him, but no way can really know for sure.

Some elderly person that lived to 100 and watched a lot of football of all eras would have a much better idea and even they would be hard pressed to know as in their youth they did not have the opportunity to see lots of Nash and Bunton as tv was not even around in those times. All they can go on is the two or three times they may have seen such players live.
 
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Vdubs

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Also Pratt and Nash. If people want to talk greatest of ALL TIME and be taken seriously got to do better than token gesture mention of names of a few stars from decades they did not see. No one here can really say who the greatest of all time is. Can only say what the best player we saw was in our opinion. Those who truly do historical research and seek out considered opinions of those that saw eras well before our life time helps develop at least a feel for how good some players were. Lockett is best full forward I seen for sure but I do not really know if he was greatest full forward ever as guys like Coleman and Pratt sound like absolute sensations of their era when reading or hearing of those times from people that lived in those times.

Best centre half forward I seen is Carey but greatest of all time could be Royce Hart or Laurie Nash. Having never seen them but knowing they were sensational players, you cannot say Carey is better and be certain of it.

Gary Ablett is most talented player I seen play the game but seen a little footage of Jesaulenko and heard enough about players like Hayden Bunton and Nash to think the most talented player of all time could well be him, but no way can really know for sure.

Some elderly person that lived to 100 and watched a lot of football of all eras would have a much better idea and even they would be hard pressed to know as in their youth they did not have the opportunity to see lots of Nash and Bunton as tv was not even around in those times. All they can go on is the two or three times they may have seen such players live.


Find a better total package than Ablett senior in the history of the game
 
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stax on the mull

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Out of the 3, I used to enjoy the Plugger show more than the Carey or Ablett show.

That doesn't mean he was the better player, its just a personal preference for the type of player I like to see dominate, but that season for St Kilda when he kicked 127 goals from 17 games is unbelievable. Think that's the best goal average in a season of all time.

Unfortunately I never saw him play in that year he won the Brownlow at the age of 21.
 

footyfan78

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there are no other teams worthy
Find a better total package than Ablett senior in the history of the game
did you even read the post you replied to?
you clown...

Newsflash mate. video footage of most players in footy is not available because only recent decades is video of games really done for every game and kept now.

We got no clue just how brilliant guys were from many eras as video footage is only common in recent decades, Nash, Bunton, Pratt , Coleman and many others have about 30 seconds of grainy old footage of old film at best. Guys from 60's or 70's like Farmer, Jesauelenko, Stewart, Baldock, Hart, Nicholls, Robran Marshall and Cable might have a few minutes of grainy black and white footage of rare stuff kept from television stations then. I wish there was as much footage of players from eras before Ablett to enjoy but that just not is possible.Just be glad we got plenty of Ablett as timing of his career meant most of his highlights are there. Even some of his early career highlights would be missing from earlier 80's as channel 7 did not keep all the footage back then. We are lucky he played well into 90's when less and less was thrown out or not recorded over.
 
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Monkey King

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Judd was an absolute jet from early on. Go back and see the way he tore Brisbane to shreds at the Gabba during one of their threepeat years. His peak was at least the equal of Kouta's, and he has Kouta easily covered in longevity and consistency. It's no contest.
False claim. Judd played fewer seasons and just the one extra game.

At their peak, as amazing as Judd was, I'd take Kouta without thinking twice. His peak was something else. Made other players look like school kids. Had Carey go to him once and Kouta just dismantled the guy, didn't last long as Kouta waltzed his way to 38 touches, 5 goals and 3 Brownlow votes.

Kouta had a far more consistent career than most give him credit for, but it is here that Judd gets him. Judd was Mr Consistent from his first game to his last. Even when injury stole the physical attributes that made him so special in the beginning, he was still a seriously good player, game in, game out.
 

woota

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If he's the GOAT, then what does that make the two players who resoundly beat him 9 out of 10 times they played? By inference, does that not indicate Jako and SOS are the true GOATs?
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Speaking of GOATS...this guy has to be the goat troll.
 

Evolved1

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False claim. Judd played fewer seasons and just the one extra game.

At their peak, as amazing as Judd was, I'd take Kouta without thinking twice. His peak was something else. Made other players look like school kids. Had Carey go to him once and Kouta just dismantled the guy, didn't last long as Kouta waltzed his way to 38 touches, 5 goals and 3 Brownlow votes.

Kouta had a far more consistent career than most give him credit for, but it is here that Judd gets him. Judd was Mr Consistent from his first game to his last. Even when injury stole the physical attributes that made him so special in the beginning, he was still a seriously good player, game in, game out.
Fair points. I'd still take Judd though.
 

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lonely dude is what it is... cheat sheet is what it combines when you all put all this and this together....

run forrest run... shallow beliefs will be what I end up with...
 

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