Tony Lockett was better than Wayne Carey or Ablett Snr

[PetterdHoisted]

More than 18 goals.

Pffft.

Would have been a great sight for Saints fans. Not Richmond ones.

God Plugger would have mauled Rance.

Fred Fanning comes to mind.

It would likely outdo that.

Yeah, so the closest thing we have to a GOAT FF in the modern era is Buddy, Rance stood him 1v1 all game in multiple games, the best FF/FB spectacle seen in the modern era. Rance regularly won the day and I think at worst Buddy kicking 6 goals on him in 2016 (?) when the Tiges were a rabble up the field.

But yeah Plugger would kick 18+

More school holiday stuff.

 

[My Tilly]

Lockett didn't dominate finals like he did during H&A.
All time great performance in the 91 EF.
Good during the 92 finals series.
Piss poor in the 96 QF but followed it up with a brilliant display in the GF.
Poor in 97 and 98.
Excellent in the 99 QF.

Averaged 3.9 goals and 5.7 marks per game in September. Considerable drop off from his usual standard.

Ablett and Carey were pretty consistent in finals.
Ablett was also a very solid state player averaging 4 goals from his 11 games.

It's a travesty Carey never won a brownlow medal by the way. Arguably the greatest player of all time and if Lockett managed to pinch one, mind boggling he could not.

 

[Brutalitops]

He is my best too, but growing up in WA the best I saw also played for North Melbourne in Barry Cable. Could do anything.

Best hands the game has ever seen bar none. Sorry Diesel

 

[Art Corvelay]

Yeah, so the closest thing we have to a GOAT FF in the modern era is Buddy, Rance stood him 1v1 all game in multiple games, the best FF/FB spectacle seen in the modern era. Rance regularly won the day and I think at worst Buddy kicking 6 goals on him in 2016 (?) when the Tiges were a rabble up the field.

But yeah Plugger would kick 18+

More school holiday stuff.

No one gives a s**t about Rance in this thread, take it elsewhere.

 

[Kwality]

Carey could have done what Ablett and Lockett did if he had a full time gig at full forward.

1. Carey
2. Lockett
3. Ablett

Bit more to it than just goals.

 

[Kwality]

Sorry, Andrew Lockyer. That big sucker with the mo.



Don't know where the fu** I plucked Kent from!?

Lockyer had a mo Clark Kent doesnt ...

 

[PetterdHoisted]

No one gives a s**t about Rance in this thread, take it elsewhere.

In principle this thread indeed focuses on comparing Plugger to other forwards, but in any good thread there is scope for discussion that evolves and diverges from the OP. In this case, I speculated on how Plugger might fair against the great FB of this era in Rance.

5 or so posters were interested enough to reply, but thank you for registering your disinterest.

 

[footyfan1978]

On a serious note, so much of these debates depend on who you watched a lot or supported as a kid.

Not for me. None of the three played for my team.
Ablett was the number one player I wanted to watch for pure skill and excitement from any other club in all my time of watching footy.
Lockett was the full forward I looked forward to hearing how many goals he kicked when I was coming back from watching my own team's game when you still could have up to 5 games on same afternoon in Melbourne. To come back on trains and cross paths with other supporters from other games finding out Plugger kicked another lazy 8 to 14 goals was always fun.
Carey did not excite me as much but for centre half forward position he is the best I seen.

 

[Kwality]

Not for me. None of the three played for my team.
Ablett was the number one player I wanted to watch for pure skill and excitement from any other club in all my time of watching footy.
Lockett was the full forward I looked forward to hearing how many goals he kicked when I was coming back from watching my own team's game when you still could have up to 5 games on same afternoon in Melbourne. To come back on trains and cross paths with other supporters from other games finding out Plugger kicked another lazy 8 to 14 goals was always fun.
Carey did not excite me as much but for centre half forward position he is the best I seen.

You'd have seen SOS tangle with all these guys, how'd you see that .....

 

[footyfan1978]

You'd have seen SOS tangle with all these guys, how'd you see that .....

The stuff of legends.
Blessed to see these champs all play on each other.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Ask the full backs that lined up on them?

Or in Ablett's case the fullbacks and also the wingmen, centremen, half back flankers and back pocket players.

I get a bit annoyed in these sorts of conversations when we're talking about full forwards and it's like Ablett never played 7 or 8 seasons further up the ground where he was, imo, a much better player.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

He was certainly a better human being than either of those two.

He hasn't been without his off field scandals both during and after his career. He seems a pretty solid, well rounded citizen these days. That's what experience does for you.

 

[The Warlord]

As a pure goal kicker, Plugger for sure, his kicking for goal was a thing of beauty. But could he play anywhere but key forward?

Ablett for the freakishness, brilliantly versatile player, great pure skills, but commitment to team, leadership seriously lacking.

Carey could play any position on the ground, the thing about Duck that made him so good is that he had the ability by hand and foot of an elite midfielder in the body of a KPF.

Carey would regularly have spells as a big mid that changed the flow of games, he played a lot of "quarterback" CHB later in his career.

And he was simply the most dominant player of his era, and possibly any era. He dominated opponents and players. He was captain at 21, led his side to two flags (neither Ablett or Lockett got one)

Carey rates at the elite end in every possible attribute for a footballer there is. You literally cannot identify an element of the game where he was not 9/10 or higher.

Same can't be said for Lockett or Ablett.

 

[The Warlord]

He hasn't been without his off field scandals both during and after his career. He seems a pretty solid, well rounded citizen these days. That's what experience does for you.

Nowhere near as solid as he used to be.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Was Ablett the best on-baller in the comp?

No.

Best midfielder?

No.

He was good - but stop the clock when he went to FF and there's no way he's in the conversation at that point as GOAT.

As a FF - was he the best in the comp? No. He was really good, and kicked shitloads of goals but there were guys that kicked more, and for longer.


He was a gun. A great player. But GOAT?? Please.



Tony Lockett and Luke Hodge are the best 2 players ever.

End of discussion.

Ok, let's play this game. Stop the clock when he went to full forward in '93.

He kicked tons in '93, '94 and '95 his only 3 full seasons at full forward.

Prior to becoming a permanent full forward he had consecutive seasons at Geelong of :

33.28
82.67
65.49
53.38
82.62
87.54
75.43
retired and came back and kicked 28.27
72.54

went to full forward
124.60 - 31 years old
129.79 - 32
122.85 - 33
69.31 missed games, did his knee and never played again. -34

retired at 35 years of age.

Played 7 games for Geelong after playing bush footy the year before and was selected in the Big V, when it was the best of the best and kicked a lazy 8 from a hff.

 

[spenze]

I remember the Crows first season and about round 4 or 5, we were traveling OK and went to Moorabbin. Lockett was back from injury, no pre-season and kicked a lazy dozen on us. What was really eye-opening was the way that our defenders all bounced off him as he stormed up to get the ball. It was pretty obvious that we needed a gorilla defender if we were ever going to keep Lockett on a leash. I even watch the games on Fox now that have Lockett on them and even when he is having a quiet game, he kicks at least 5 and the bugger rarely misses. Was an immense player and worthy of being discussed as the GOAT.

As to how he would have matched up on Rance, lets all stop and remember that Josh Jenkins, when matched up on Rance kicked 5 goals on him that were all contested efforts were he beat Rance one on one. Josh ******* Joe The Goose, no body contact please, Jenkins out muscled Rance for 5 goals, if Plugger had played on Rance, the quarters would have gone an hour each, such would be the length of the time on...the game would have finished in the dark it would have gone so long.

 

[Sttew]

Controversial opinion I know, but as someone who grew up closely watching all three, and saw them live many times, I honestly think Plugger was the best of them all, and the best player I have seen in my lifetime following footy (since 1986)

Plugger had a more significant and profound and longer lasting legacy on the game (especially in a pioneer state in Sydney) and his all time goal scoring record will never be broken (least in my time)

Annoys me that Lockett is rarely discussed in the GOAT of the game status, in my opinion he is comfortably in the top 5, if not 3, of the VFL/AFL history.

Lockett and Ablett Senior should not be compared. One was exclusively a full forward and the other could and did play FF and other positions (wing, centre, half forward).

IMO, exclusive full forwards are generally not in the GOAT frame because they are finishers. If the Saints were being smashed it wasn't going to be Lockett who turned the tide

Lockett is the greatest ever full forward, but IMO, not the greatest ever player

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Ok, let's play this game. Stop the clock when he went to full forward in '93.

He kicked tons in '93, '94 and '95 his only 3 full seasons at full forward.

Prior to becoming a permanent full forward he had consecutive seasons at Geelong of :

33.28
82.67
65.49
53.38
82.62
87.54
75.43
retired and came back and kicked 28.27
72.54

went to full forward
124.60 - 31 years old
129.79 - 32
122.85 - 33
69.31 missed games, did his knee and never played again. -34

retired at 35 years of age.

Played either 7 games for Geelong after playing bush footy the year before and was selected in the Big V, when it was the best of the best and kicked a lazy from a hff.

Fair points. Handy player.

 

[footyfan1978]

Lockett is the greatest ever full forward, but IMO, not the greatest ever player

Spot on.

 

[JackFlash]

Locket was a good full forward.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Lockett and Ablett Senior should not be compared. One was exclusively a full forward and the other could and did play FF and other positions (wing, centre, half forward).

IMO, exclusive full forwards are generally not in the GOAT frame because they are finishers. If the Saints were being smashed it wasn't going to be Lockett who turned the tide

Lockett is the greatest ever full forward, but IMO, not the greatest ever player

You've got to consider his Brownlow in that aspect of the discussion though.

For a FF to win it, demonstrates his freakish ability to completely dominate a game from a small section of the ground.

Even though he rarely left the F50, his influence and impact over the game was extraordinary.

I think there's a case, due to his Brownlow win that he can't be pigeon holed as 'just a FF'. I think it showed that his leadership and ability to turn poor F50 Entries into goals, and also create turnovers out of D50 due to his mere presence made him very worthy of GOAT discussions.

The dude was more than just a full forward.

 

[Sttew]

Was Ablett the best on-baller in the comp?

No.

Best midfielder?

No.

He was good - but stop the clock when he went to FF and there's no way he's in the conversation at that point as GOAT.

As a FF - was he the best in the comp? No. He was really good, and kicked shitloads of goals but there were guys that kicked more, and for longer.


He was a gun. A great player. But GOAT?? Please.



Tony Lockett and Luke Hodge are the best 2 players ever.

End of discussion.

How old are you? Either too young and never saw Ablett pre 93, or simply didn't watch Ablett.

I saw his first game at Geelong. He debuted in the same match as Greg Williams and Mark Jackson for Geelong in 1984. Ablett was an unknown commodity. Yet he tore the game apart from the wing, taking speccies, kicking goals and doing as he pleased. So bloody impressive was Ablett that he was selected to play for Victoria 8 or so games later against WA and kicked a lazy 8 goals in a best-on-ground performance playing HFF.

Do yourself a favour and watch the highlights reel:


Ablett Senior is most definitely in the frame for GOAT, like him or not.

 

[Monkey King]

Yeah, so the closest thing we have to a GOAT FF in the modern era is Buddy ...

But yeah Plugger would kick 18+

More school holiday stuff.

If Buddy was a decent mark he may well be spoken of alongside this trio; has so many amazing tools, but lacks the big one. Rance would have a far more powerful and aggressive unit on hands in Lockett.

At a glance, Buddy's output against Richmond doesn't seem much different to that against most clubs. When you look at players like Lockett, Dunstall or Ablett, their outputs dipped against the Blues with SOS easing the pain. Don't see this with Buddy and Rance. Not that means anything definitive.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Dunstall was rated in the media as a better forward than Lockett for most of their careers. Lockett didn't get the injuries and edged Dunstall on the final goal kicking ladder.. and now Dunstall is never mentioned. It is like Coventry never being mentioned in such conversations. Or Hird never being mentioned. People just forget some great players.

But I agree Lockett is better than Carey..

And much better than Ablett Snr who played for himself and not the team and often it was famine or feast with him.

 

[Luv_our_club]

How old are you? Either too young and never saw Ablett pre 93, or simply didn't watch Ablett.

I saw his first game at Geelong. He debuted in the same match as Greg Williams and Mark Jackson for Geelong in 1984. Ablett was an unknown commodity. Yet he tore the game apart from the wing, taking speccies, kicking goals and doing as he pleased. So bloody impressive was Ablett that he was selected to play for Victoria 8 or so games later against WA and kicked a lazy 8 goals in a best-on-ground performance playing HFF.

Do yourself a favour and watch the highlights reel:


Ablett Senior is most definitely in the frame for GOAT, like him or not.

It is a problem when discussing Ablett because he was clearly in the top 5 for displaying natural ability on the field. But I don't think he had a top 5 career.

He had flaws. Mental flaws. They impacted his career. He was a selfish footballer. And at times he didn't try at all. He wasn't motivated to make his team better... at least that wasn't his first or consistent priority.