Top 10 Crows in relation to BnF top-5 ratings

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I actually don’t mind John’s attempts to use best and fairest data to inform an opinion… and I like other folks suggestions that it provides an incomplete picture and that one could include ladder position/finals wins etc. to add weight to said opinion… and I don’t dispute that Roo and McLeod were two of the all time greats to play the game… and yet despite him not even being on this list, having never won a best and fairest/brownlow/norm smith, I will go to my grave arguing that Darren Jarman is the best footballer I’ve ever seen play the game. Not the most dominant or consistent certainly, but the best? Yep. Hands down the most talented/creative/intelligent footballer I’ve watched. So using the methodology of me watching and enjoying football, Darren Jarman is the best to ever pull on the Crows guernsey. And everyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Why? Because I said so.

I guess I’m also saying that any metric that has Darren Jarman outside the top 10 Crows over the years is pretty flawed… but interesting. I like it.

I don’t agree with Jarman that high, but I absolutely do agree with the entertainment factor - he was so good to watch. I loved watching him play.

I’ll argue David Rhys Jones was the best kick I ever saw, but Jarman was mighty close

The problem with the good doctors methodology is not that it produces perverse, unjustifiable results (though it does) it’s his bizarre attempt to deny that choice of methodology is subjective

As usual, he doesn’t understand words
 
Here’s a more “relatively objective” take on who has been the top 10 Crows players to have ever played for AFC. I’ve used data for top-5 BnF results from 1991-2023.

1. Laird - 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 2nd
(3 BnF; 8 top-5; 8 top-3)

2. McLeod - 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 4th, 4th, 4th, 1st
(3 BnF; 8 top-5; 5 top-3)

3. Goodwin - 5th, 1st, 4th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd
(3 BnF; 8 top-5; 5 top-3)
Andrew McLeod is 10x top 5 (1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007)

Simon Goodwin is 9x top 5 (1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009)
 
OK, I have had a crack at a weighting system. I have allocated 2 points for a win, and 1 point for a 2-5 place finish. These points are then hit with a multiplier based on the position at the end of the year (post finals as the crows give votes during finals matches).
The scale means a B&F in a premiership year is worth 4 points and 2 for a top 5, sliding down to a B&F in a wooden spoon year (with 18 teams) worth 2.3 points, top 5 1.15 points.

The complete list ends up like this:

PlayerWinner2-5Total Adj
Andrew McLeod37
22.55​
Simon Goodwin36
21.25​
Mark Ricciuto34
16.9​
Rory Laird35
16.1​
Tyson Edwards08
13.75​
Rory Sloane24
13.4​
Ben Hart24
13.25​
Scott Thompson23
11.35​
Patrick Dangerfield14
9.8​
Graham Johncock06
9.8​
Taylor Walker06
9.6​
Tony McGuinness13
8.5​
Shaun Rehn13
8.5​
Chris McDermott13
8.2​
Matt Crouch13
8​
Nigel Smart05
7.95​
Sam Jacobs04
7.15​
Richard Douglas12
6.45​
Daniel Talia12
6.35​
Mark Bickley03
5.3​
Michael Doughty03
5​
Tyson Stenglein03
4.95​
Mark Stevens03
4.9​
Ben Rutten03
4.9​
Jordan Dawson11
4.45​
Rod Jameson03
4.45​
Brodie Smith03
4.4​
Ben Keays03
3.8​
Nathan Bassett02
3.8​
Bernie Vince10
3.6​
Reilly O’Brien11
3.6​
Eddie Betts02
3.5​
Darren Jarman02
3.45​
Nathan Bock10
3.4​
Mark Mickan10
3.2​
Andrew Jarman02
3.1​
Matthew Connell10
3​
Brad Crouch10
3​
Matthew Liptak10
2.9​
Peter Caven01
2​
Anthony Modra01
1.9​
Jason Porplyzia01
1.8​
Tom Lynch01
1.75​
Izak Rankine01
1.55​
Mitch Hinge01
1.55​
Simon Tregenza01
1.5​
Brent Reilly01
1.5​
Andy Otten01
1.5​
Josh Jenkins01
1.45​
Matthew Robran01
1.45​
Bryce Gibbs01
1.45​
Hugh Greenwood01
1.45​
Nathan van Berlo01
1.35​
Paul Seedsman01
1.3​
Luke Brown01
1.15​

This also reflects my long-held belief that winning a Best and Fairest in a Premiership season is one of the big four achievements in our game:

  1. League Medal - adjudged the best player over a season (Brownlow Medal, Magarey Medal pre-1991, Sandover Medal pre-1987)
  2. Best on Ground in Grand Final - best player from the best two team at the crucial time (Norm Smith Medal, Jack Oatey Medal pre-1991, GF Simpson Medal pre-1987)
  3. Best and Fairest for the Premiership Team - best player from the best team
  4. Best on Ground/Carnival for State Team - best player from the best players (Tassie Medal, E.J. Whitten Medal, Fos Williams Medal, State Simpson Medal, Alex Jesaulenko Medal)
 
Last edited:

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224 games, 28 goals, 3x BnF, 2x All-Australian

312 games, 294 goals, Premiership player, Brownlow medallist, 3x BnF, 8x All-Australian (twice captain), leading goalkicker

340 games, 275 goals, 2x premiership player, 2x Norm Smith medallist, 3x BnF,
5x All-Australian (once captain)

I agree with you that Laird is treated disrespectfully on here, but let’s not pretend that it’s subjective emotion that leads us to view McLeod and Roo as our two best ever.
I used a light-hearted tone of “relatively objective” top 10 as opposed to saying “definitive top 10”. The aim isn’t to change anyones opinion but giving some further perspective on the topic.
 
I actually don’t mind John’s attempts to use best and fairest data to inform an opinion… and I like other folks suggestions that it provides an incomplete picture and that one could include ladder position/finals wins etc. to add weight to said opinion… and I don’t dispute that Roo and McLeod were two of the all time greats to play the game… and yet despite him not even being on this list, having never won a best and fairest/brownlow/norm smith, I will go to my grave arguing that Darren Jarman is the best footballer I’ve ever seen play the game. Not the most dominant or consistent certainly, but the best? Yep. Hands down the most talented/creative/intelligent footballer I’ve watched. So using the methodology of me watching and enjoying football, Darren Jarman is the best to ever pull on the Crows guernsey. And everyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Why? Because I said so.

I guess I’m also saying that any metric that has Darren Jarman outside the top 10 Crows over the years is pretty flawed… but interesting. I like it.
You get it. There’s no such thing as 100% objective data on a top 10 of any list. Personally I would add Modra on my list as well as D Jarman. Both with natural sublime footy skills and brain.

The thing that’s most laughable is that some on here seem to think that including data of top-5 BnF is pointless to form an opinion on the top-10 best players for the club… that’s like the most stupid line of logic you can get on a footy forum!
 
OK, I have had a crack at a weighting system. I have allocated 2 points for a win, and 1 point for a 2-5 place finish. These points are then hit with a multiplier based on the position at the end of the year (post finals as the crows give votes during finals matches).
The scale means a B&F in a premiership year is worth 4 points and 2 for a top 5, sliding down to a B&F in a wooden spoon year (with 18 teams) worth 2.3 points, top 5 1.15 points.

The complete list ends up like this:

PlayerWinner2-5Total Adj
Andrew McLeod37
22.55​
Simon Goodwin36
21.25​
Mark Ricciuto34
16.9​
Rory Laird35
16.1​
Tyson Edwards08
13.75​
Rory Sloane24
13.4​
Ben Hart24
13.25​
Scott Thompson23
11.35​
Patrick Dangerfield14
9.8​
Graham Johncock06
9.8​
Taylor Walker06
9.6​
Tony McGuinness13
8.5​
Shaun Rehn13
8.5​
Chris McDermott13
8.2​
Matt Crouch13
8​
Nigel Smart05
7.95​
Sam Jacobs04
7.15​
Richard Douglas12
6.45​
Daniel Talia12
6.35​
Mark Bickley03
5.3​
Michael Doughty03
5​
Tyson Stenglein03
4.95​
Mark Stevens03
4.9​
Ben Rutten03
4.9​
Jordan Dawson11
4.45​
Rod Jameson03
4.45​
Brodie Smith03
4.4​
Ben Keays03
3.8​
Nathan Bassett02
3.8​
Bernie Vince10
3.6​
Reilly O’Brien11
3.6​
Eddie Betts02
3.5​
Darren Jarman02
3.45​
Nathan Bock10
3.4​
Mark Mickan10
3.2​
Andrew Jarman02
3.1​
Matthew Connell10
3​
Brad Crouch10
3​
Matthew Liptak10
2.9​
Peter Caven01
2​
Anthony Modra01
1.9​
Jason Porplyzia01
1.8​
Tom Lynch01
1.75​
Izak Rankine01
1.55​
Mitch Hinge01
1.55​
Simon Tregenza01
1.5​
Brent Reilly01
1.5​
Andy Otten01
1.5​
Josh Jenkins01
1.45​
Matthew Robran01
1.45​
Bryce Gibbs01
1.45​
Hugh Greenwood01
1.45​
Nathan van Berlo01
1.35​
Paul Seedsman01
1.3​
Luke Brown01
1.15​

This also reflects my long-held belief that winning a Best and Fairest in a Premiership season is one of the big four achievements in our game:

  1. League Medal - adjudged the best player over a season (Brownlow Medal, Magarey Medal pre-1991, Sandover Medal pre-1987)
  2. Best on Ground in Grand Final - best player from the best two team at the crucial time (Norm Smith Medal, Jack Oatey Medal pre-1991, GF Simpson Medal pre-1987)
  3. Best and Fairest for the Premiership Team - best player from the best team
  4. Best on Ground/Carnival for State Team - best player from the best players (Tassie Medal, E.J. Whitten Medal, Fos Williams Medal, State Simpson Medal, Alex Jesaulenko Medal)
You’re really going to town with this thread! I like!

Though I think there needs some further parameters to make it more meatier. For instance, D Jarman outside the top 30 and Modra outside the top 40 just doesn’t feel right, where I’m sure most fans would agree with these sentiments.

Interested to know how you came up with the calibration of 2.3 and 1.15? :)
 
And still you don’t understand
Here’s the thing, if you can come up with a better “objective” proposal, I’d like to see it. Otherwise, you’re just an ass speaking word salad, trying to act smart while adding zero substance. It’s a boring act you perform monotonously.
 

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