Weekly Prize - Join Any Time - Tip Round 16
The Golden Ticket - MCG and Marvel Medallion Club tickets and Corporate Box tickets at the Gabba, MCG and Marvel.
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As a comparison, Cyril Rioli won premierships, starred in 2015’s decider, and did freakish things weekly. He’s only just on the list. Garry Wilson was probably the best rover in the comp when the Krakouers debuted. I’ve only just re-included him.
Gray was on the list 12 months or so ago and would be literally a handful of spots back. Again, my somewhat subjective take on watching players for 45 years, is that Isaac Heeney is producing a level of quality that impresses me marginally more than the consistent season upon season career of Gray. However, somewhat objectively, I needed to see it shown to the degree he had over that last 2-3 years rather than in flashes. A season of rubbish in 2025 would tarnish that view without a doubt. I also want this list to be dynamically changing rather than just based on end of career status. Heeney and Merrett are in the conversation as best players in the comp at present and thoroughly deserve consideration at this point. But I also recognise that others would prefer Gray, Wayne Johnston, Rance, or even Tony Shaw. Again, you might be right in that I’ve jumped the gun on Heeney. But his level of performance has been eye-catching and I feel like he’s found his mojo as an elite footballer. Let’s see how it pans out over the next few years. I’ll be fully hands up in acknowledgement of my misreading of this if he falls off a cliff
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There is definitely an argument for choosing West. As similar players he definitely has the greater span of elite years. No question. I’d argue though, that Jobe’s peak performing years were superior to West’s. The number of team lifting games he inspired were eye-catching. West went about his business in a super-consistent way of which I admire massively but he was a beige player and at their peak I’d choose Jobe. Again, this is my subjective take, and I have absolutely no issue in others objectively preferring West. Also, Jobe’s BnF total would definitely have been 2, or even 3, more if not for injury. 2011, 2013 and 2014 he missed games despite consistently being his side’s best player when fit. I think it was probably the ability to will himself upon a contest at crucial times in a game that sways me as much as anything.
Betts was on the list for several years and is another who is on the cusp of entry. I’m probably doing a disservice to him by leaving him out but I’m not so sure it would be at the expense of Mercs. Sure, Mercs’ aesthetically pleasing style counts for a lot here but, as you highlight, it’s backed up by some outstanding finals contributions and one of the best single midfield maestro years we’ve seen. It’s a shame things fell away for him after 2000 but that doesn’t detract from the level he did reach and the impact he had in a successful era. In terms of aesthetically gifted players, is he any less deserving than the universally acclaimed Robbie Flower who only won one BnF and didn’t have many notable big game heroics or other major awards/accolades? I like to romanticise the wizardry of gifted players but they need some substance to their careers too. Mercs definitely had that, and I’d argue that Flower’s longevity as a talismanic presence in a woeful club culture is also substantial. There’s no way in hell I’d leave Flower off this list, at this stage, and Mercs is not out of his league in this respect.
Yes, I remember Flower performing well for Victoria a few times. In terms of appreciation for his career you’re probably preaching to the converted. I loved him. But it’s mainly from the aesthetic imprint he left.
It seems utterly strange to be defending a player's position in this list for the theoretical possibility of what they could have done if not for injury, something that is not considered for other players but also just absurd on its face - surely this list is for what the players actually did on the field, when fit?
It was brought up here in a discussion about Jobe specifically and it’s simply to support the notion that at his peak he was in a position to have won a few more BnF. Scott West played nearly every game every season and that helps his cause in gaining club BnFs. Jobe was the best player at his club over a period of 6 seasons. West wasn’t the best player at his club over the period he won 7 BnFs. Chris Grant and Brad Johnson were better players and it could be argued might’ve been a bit stiff not to have won a couple of those. The winning of BnFs is relative to a few factors and one of them is missing a games when you’re in career-best form. Another is voting formats that favour players who play every game at a consistent level. I think it’s a fair point to raise and it would apply to any players who were denied awards by unfortunately timed injuries such as Hird in 2003 when he had possibly his best season and finished on 19 votes when the winners finished on 22. He missed 5 games in the middle of the season. That has to be taken into account when you’re trying to pump up the achievements of the winners that year. Hird didn’t get the accolade but he was possibly the best performed player during the season.
That’s fantastic info to learn and even though I already rate Flower highly anyway, it makes him even more endearing to me.
I tried explain it clearly in the OP. It’s focussed on 1980 onwards. KB showed me enough to consider him highly despite being predominantly a forward in the 80s. I saw remnants of the rover he once was. Selwood, was an inspiration and instrumental in successful Cats eras. I think that his standing here is warranted. KB, from an overall career perspective, would be ahead. But that is not what I’m evaluating here seeing as I didn’t see KB prior to 1980 so I can’t fairly judge that period of his career.
Ok , I didn't realise
All fantastic footballers. All in the conversation as best handful of players in the comp at their peak. Mercuri has the added bonus of being possibly the most aesthetically pleasing player I’ve seen. Snort Franklin and Smug Mitchell have been given their dues here without bias. How about you pull your head in with the ‘Jab’ bullshit. Uncalled for in a thread I’ve created for respectful discussion.
Great list of players.
Great list of players.
If I might add my two cents.
The most glaring omissions and differences are;
- Tim Watson. I don’t know if it’s just an oversight but he is always mentioned in the best 3 or 4 Essendon players since 1980 with Hird, Madden, and Lloyd. I could definitely understand people rating him lower than I rate him but he is definitely in the list ahead of so many players here like TD, Ratten, Burke, Bell, Lappin etc etc. He won a MVP and was our key player in 84/85. Plus he was a WC player so surely some love there
- Bernie Quinlan. I mean the guy kicked the ton twice, and over 50 every season between 81-86.
- Peter Knights selected yet Blight, Bartlett and Greig not mentioned. Post 1980 both Blight and Bartlett played peak quality football. Knights was a shadow of his former self. I originally had Knights in my list but realised it was based more on legend than any quality I actually saw. If you left Blight and Bartlett out based on minimal 1980s exposure then how does Knights make it?
- Cripps. Sure, he’s overrated by the umpires but I think he warrants a spot now.
- Paul Salmon. Made the Hawthorn team of the century in his short time as a pure ruckman. Consistent finals performer at Essendon. A rare champion as both a ruck and forward.
- As a WC supporter I can totally understand you rating Judd top 10, as well as Glass, Kennedy, and McGov being included when I couldn’t squeeze them in. That is fair when you see them regularly and they have been crucial parts of successful teams. But I think that Cox above Madden and Gawn is a bit of a stretch. If anyone is pushing Madden for best ruckman it is Gawn in my humble opinion. (Also, which Kennedy is which in your list?).
I outright forgot Watto and BernieGreat list of players.
If I might add my two cents.
The most glaring omissions and differences are;
- Tim Watson. I don’t know if it’s just an oversight but he is always mentioned in the best 3 or 4 Essendon players since 1980 with Hird, Madden, and Lloyd. I could definitely understand people rating him lower than I rate him but he is definitely in the list ahead of so many players here like TD, Ratten, Burke, Bell, Lappin etc etc. He won a MVP and was our key player in 84/85. Plus he was a WC player so surely some love there
- Bernie Quinlan. I mean the guy kicked the ton twice, and over 50 every season between 81-86.
- Peter Knights selected yet Blight, Bartlett and Greig not mentioned. Post 1980 both Blight and Bartlett played peak quality football. Knights was a shadow of his former self. I originally had Knights in my list but realised it was based more on legend than any quality I actually saw. If you left Blight and Bartlett out based on minimal 1980s exposure then how does Knights make it?
- Cripps. Sure, he’s overrated by the umpires but I think he warrants a spot now.
- Paul Salmon. Made the Hawthorn team of the century in his short time as a pure ruckman. Consistent finals performer at Essendon. A rare champion as both a ruck and forward.
- As a WC supporter I can totally understand you rating Judd top 10, as well as Glass, Kennedy, and McGov being included when I couldn’t squeeze them in. That is fair when you see them regularly and they have been crucial parts of successful teams. But I think that Cox above Madden and Gawn is a bit of a stretch. If anyone is pushing Madden for best ruckman it is Gawn in my humble opinion. (Also, which Kennedy is which in your list?).
Fair enough. They are absolutely neck and neck on my list with Gawn at 40 and Cox at 42. For me, Gawn is the more imposing player, and his leadership is slightly more evident. These attributes probably nudge him ahead for mine. But he is also not slowing down and he’s moving toward Madden on the list who, due to his extraordinary forward craft, was the more complete player in my eyes, even if Gawn has him covered as a pure ruckman.
All good. It took me a while to account for all the players I needed to for the original list.
Barry Hall, Paul Kelly, Corey Enright, Robbie Gray, Doug Hawkins stiff
Players like Hawkins are helped by the fact that their aesthetic appeal adds to their long career of high level performance. Flower, Dougie, and Mercuri all get a boost for this attribute.
