Opinion Top 50 2012

[robertg22]

Crameri is 22nd and has only had 5 possessions more than Cloke, kicked 1 more goal, 9 less contested marks (19 less marks overall), 1 more goal assist & Cloke can't even make the unluckies?

Harsh.

Taylor Walker probably deserves to be ahead of Crameri too, he's leading the Coleman!

 

[Mr Rafer]

We were going to draft Scott Selwood with pick 19 if we didn't trade for McMahon. Imagine our midfield. Still hurts, thanks Wallace! What a gun he's turned into it.

3 tigers in the top 15. Feels weird because we sit 2-4 but I'll take it!

Pretty good list. Only question marks I'd have is you seem to mark Buddy and Swan harshly.

Wow..that midfield would be crazy!

 

[silk]

I think Flectcher should at least be considered for the unluckies. Has been in fine form this season.

 

[WN123]

I think Flectcher should at least be considered for the unluckies. Has been in fine form this season.

Was about to post the same thing. On a weekly basis teams conceive plans to counter Fletchers influence so he might be being a bit under rated here.

 

[Slattery_20]

Another good effort.
I really don't know if Kreuzer deserves to be as high as he is, going off his last 3-4 weeks.
Keep a close eye on Swan, he's only getting better.
Kade Simpson IMHO too low, has been Carlton's most consistent & arguably their best.
I'd swap Cotchin & Rance. Seems a bit odd to see so many defenders so high.

 

[eaglespremiers]

I think Flectcher should at least be considered for the unluckies. Has been in fine form this season.

Will be at the game this Saturday so will watch carefully.

 

[eaglespremiers]

Another good effort.
I really don't know if Kreuzer deserves to be as high as he is, going off his last 3-4 weeks.
Keep a close eye on Swan, he's only getting better.
Kade Simpson IMHO too low, has been Carlton's most consistent & arguably their best.
I'd swap Cotchin & Rance. Seems a bit odd to see so many defenders so high.

Yeah, think I will slide Kreuzer out of the 50 this week (unless he has a big game).
Simpson - noted.
Re Cotchin and Rance. It's hard because Rance had a good game on the weekend and Cotchin has a poor game. Do I leave Cotchin in the 10 after having a poor game?

 

[jabbers]

Crameri is 22nd and has only had 5 possessions more than Cloke, kicked 1 more goal, 9 less contested marks (19 less marks overall), 1 more goal assist & Cloke can't even make the unluckies?

Harsh.

Taylor Walker probably deserves to be ahead of Crameri too, he's leading the Coleman!

lol Don't think OP has much time for Cloke, Cloke's second half got Colllingwood back in the game after he was well beaten in the first. To have Tippett as unlucky and Cloke not even in, is pretty amusing. Let's hope Freo and GWS rate him similarly!

FFS Kreuzer is 16th in hit outs and has only kicked two goals for the season and 13 other ruckman average more possessions!

 

[Slattery_20]

Re Cotchin and Rance. It's hard because Rance had a good game on the weekend and Cotchin has a poor game. Do I leave Cotchin in the 10 after having a poor game?

I spose it's actually right (given similar things went on w/ Stanton, Pendlebury after respective bad weeks), I just think it looks a bit odd!

Cotchin's contribution for the year still > Rance's. IMHO.
But I can see your POV as well.

 

[Slattery_20]

Cloke was well held. Worked into it late, but had a lot of his touches up the wing.

 

[jabbers]

Cloke was well held. Worked into it late, but had a lot of his touches up the wing.

Took a big contested mark in the goal square and took a great intercept mark in the last quarter to kick te clutch goal for 50 on a tough angle.

 

[eaglespremiers]

lol Don't think OP has much time for Cloke, Cloke's second half got Colllingwood back in the game after he was well beaten in the first. To have Tippett as unlucky and Cloke not even in, is pretty amusing.

Oversight on my part Cloke not being in the unluckies.
I took him out of the 50 and forgot to put him in the unluckies.
As to not having much time for him, if you look up the Top 50 2011 I was one of the biggest proponents arguing for Cloke (I actually rated him through-out the year as better than Buddy).
Maybe Cloke is a victim of high expectations but he hasn't been as good as some other forwards so far this year.
This includes Hawkins, Crameri and, yes, Tippett (although it's reasonably close).

Kreuzer has been overrated. I have conceded that. It will be rectified this week.

 

[jabbers]

Oversight on my part Cloke not being in the unluckies.
I took him out of the 50 and forgot to put him in the unluckies.
As to not having much time for him, if you look up the Top 50 2011 I was one of the biggest proponents arguing for Cloke (I actually rated him through-out the year as better than Buddy).
Maybe Cloke is a victim of high expectations but he hasn't been as good as some other forwards so far this year.
This includes Hawkins, Crameri and, yes, Tippett (although it's reasonably close).

Kreuzer has been overrated. I have conceded that. It will be rectified this week.

I'm curious how you see Tippett as having been better. In what areas?

And Chaplin? Cloke monstered him the previous fortnight!

 

[eaglespremiers]

I'm curious how you see Tippett as having been better. In what areas?

Tippett:
Round 1 - monster game.
Round 2 - average.
Round 3 - very good.
Round 4 - very good.
Round 5 - poor.
Round 6 - woeful.

Cloke:
Round 1 - good game.
Round 2 - very good.
Round 3 - poor.
Round 4 - very good.
Round 5 - average.
Round 6 - average.

Tippett's last two weeks have been bad but before that he was clearly ahead of Cloke.

 

[jabbers]

Tippett:
Round 1 - monster game.
Round 2 - average.
Round 3 - very good.
Round 4 - very good.
Round 5 - poor.
Round 6 - woeful.

Cloke:
Round 1 - good game.
Round 2 - very good.
Round 3 - poor.
Round 4 - very good.
Round 5 - average.
Round 6 - average.

Tippett's last two weeks have been bad but before that he was clearly ahead of Cloke.

Looking at that rating system- I assume the order is
monster
v good
average
poor
woeful

If you rate them 5-1 you have Cloke ahead. I aslo struggle to see how 19 possessions 7 marks 4 goals against Gold coast is a monster game and 17 possessions 9 marks and four goals in a close game is just v good.

 

[eaglespremiers]

Looking at that rating system- I assume the order is
monster
v good
average
poor
woeful

If you rate them 5-1 you have Cloke ahead.

Actually, you are correct:
Tippett:
Round 1 - monster game. 5/5
Round 2 - average. 2.5/5
Round 3 - very good. 4/5
Round 4 - very good. 4/5
Round 5 - poor. 1/5
Round 6 - woeful. 0/5
Total: 16.5/30

Cloke:
Round 1 - good game. 3/5
Round 2 - very good. 4/5
Round 3 - poor. 1/5
Round 4 - very good. 4/5
Round 5 - average. 2.5/5
Round 6 - average. 2.5/5
Total: 17/30

I stand corrected.
Also the monster game vs very good game I let be determined by Champion Data.
Tippett had a CD score of 150 for round 1.
Cloke had a CD score of 126 for round 4.

It was you who said to compare them statistically.

 

[Monkey King]

FFS Kreuzer is 16th in hit outs and has only kicked two goals for the season and 13 other ruckman average more possessions!

He's form has dropped off the last few games, but it's also clear when watching Kreuzer he has a lot of influence outside of stats; commentators make mention of this all the time. Yesterday for example he ran into a pack, cleared two opponents out of the way, knocked the ball away from a third while taking him out of the play and getting the ball to a Carlton player who went inside 50. I doubt he'd have got a single stat for that passage of play, yet it was more effective in its entirety than most bloke's straight up disposals.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have his hitouts to advantage totals?

 

[jabbers]

He's form has dropped off the last few games, but it's also clear when watching Kreuzer he has a lot of influence outside of stats; commentators make mention of this all the time. Yesterday for example he ran into a pack, cleared two opponents out of the way, knocked the ball away from a third while taking him out of the play and getting the ball to a Carlton player who went inside 50. I doubt he'd have got a single stat for that passage of play, yet it was more effective in its entirety than most bloke's straight up disposals.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have his hitouts to advantage totals?

Monkey anyone who saw him play against my mob wouldn't doubt his capabilities. Knees take a long time to get over for big men and the best is still to come. I was making more of a point on the Cloke omission from the 50. I though last week was a clear example of why Cloke should be in. He was well beaten in the first half but fought back to contribute with two important goals, including probably the sealer under a fair bit of pressure.

 

[hawkman]

From Hawthorn would easily have Roughead over Whitecross now, I don't think Whitecross should be in their now

 

[eaglespremiers]

Actually I really like that way of comparing players.
For instance,
Josh Kennedy:
Round 1 - exceptional 5/5
Round 2 - exceptional 5/5
Round 3 - very good 4/5
Round 4 - very good 4/5
Round 5 - exceptional 5/5
Round 6 - very good 4/5
Total = 27/30

Scott Pendlebury:
Round 1 - exceptional 5/5
Round 2 - very good 4/5
Round 3 - poor 1/5
Round 4 - very good 4/5
Round 5 - exceptional 5/5
Round 6 - exceptional 5/5
Total = 24/30

Scott Selwood:
Round 1 - very good 4/5
Round 2 - exceptional 5/5
Round 3 - exceptional 5/5
Round 4 - good 3/5
Round 5 - very good 4/5
Round 6 - exceptional 5/5
Total = 26/30

Gary Ablett:
Round 1 - monster 5/5
Round 2 - monster 5/5
Round 3 - exceptional 5/5
Round 4 - very good 4/5
Total = 19/20

Trent Cotchin:
Round 1 - very good 4/5
Round 2 - good 3/5
Round 3 - very good 4/5
Round 4 - very good 4/5
Round 5 - exceptional 5/5
Round 6 - meh 2/5
Total = 22/30

Rory Sloane:
Round 1 - very good 4/5
Round 2 - good 3/5
Round 3 - meh 2/5
Round 4 - very good 4/5
Round 5 - very good 4/5
Round 6 - very good 4/5
Total = 21/30

Mitch Robinson:
Round 1 - poor 1/5
Round 2 - good 3/5
Round 3 - very good 4/5
Round 4 - average 2.5/5
Round 5 - very good 4/5
Round 6 - exceptional 5/5
Total = 19.5/30

It is an interesting way of looking at it.
Won't use it to completely define the list but certainly will adjust my contemplations to consider a player by player analysis.

 

[eaglespremiers]

I was making more of a point on the Cloke omission from the 50. I though last week was a clear example of why Cloke should be in. He was well beaten in the first half but fought back to contribute with two important goals, including probably the sealer under a fair bit of pressure.

I do hear you and will reconsider my ranking of Cloke.
Will see how he plays on the weekend.

 

[eaglespremiers]

From Hawthorn would easily have Roughead over Whitecross now, I don't think Whitecross should be in their now

Noted, another bad game by Whitecross will put him out.

 

[George Washington]

I believe Aussie Gun last year used a system where he rated each players game out of 10. I think it's a good idea as it stops you weighting recent form too heavily.

 

[jabbers]

Actually, you are correct:
Tippett:
Round 1 - monster game. 5/5
Round 2 - average. 2.5/5
Round 3 - very good. 4/5
Round 4 - very good. 4/5
Round 5 - poor. 1/5
Round 6 - woeful. 0/5
Total: 16.5/30

Cloke:
Round 1 - good game. 3/5
Round 2 - very good. 4/5
Round 3 - poor. 1/5
Round 4 - very good. 4/5
Round 5 - average. 2.5/5
Round 6 - average. 2.5/5
Total: 17/30

I stand corrected.
Also the monster game vs very good game I let be determined by Champion Data.
Tippett had a CD score of 150 for round 1.
Cloke had a CD score of 126 for round 4.

It was you who said to compare them statistically.

I agree it is a pretty good starting point, but i'd expect big power forwards to do well against GWS and GC. Maybe worth looking at scaling down big scores against lesser opponents.

 

[eaglespremiers]

I believe Aussie Gun last year used a system where he rated each players game out of 10. I think it's a good idea as it stops you weighting recent form too heavily.

I believe I will do that from now on.