Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

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Pannalstaroz

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Talia's game-smarts worry me too, but I think you've got a fair bit of confirmation bias going on here. Before you watch Talia, you've already decided that he is going to make errors. Then, you specifically search for his errors and not for the good things he does. Do this with any player and you'll severely underrate him.

Just for a bit of perspective, my old man isn't really a fan of your boy (and my boy- I love him) Jarrad Grant, because whenever he sees Grant, he looks for the errors in the same way you do with Talia- this originated from when grant was actually playing poor footy early in his career. At one stage today, Grant could've taken an easy uncontested mark on defensive 50 or left the ball for hamling behind him, but instead he knocked the ball down to a waiting melbourne player. My dad started going on about grant's decision making and awareness, and seemingly forgot about how good the vast majority of his game was today.

I think there's a certain poster on here who holds similar views about dickson and jong, and couldn't even rate dickson's 7 goal game against freo, because he only looks for the bad things in their games once he decides they are bad players. Try watching Talia as you would watch any other player, and you'll start seeing him as a better player than you currently see him.

I also think you're being very harsh on him in that contest against gawn. He was giving away about 15cm, and the ball was clearly to gawn's advantage. Gawn would've been able to jump for it if Talia hadn't infringed, and there was no way Talia (or any key-defender I can think of) could've outreached gawn for the ball. The only way he could stop gawn from marking was by making front-on contact with him (or just shirking the contest completely and hoping for gawn to drop it). In a game where a lot of free kicks went unpaid (see dunn running into redpath front-on in the first quarter in a similar fashion), Talia's actions were not unreasonable.
You're slightly right. I'm the first to applaud Talia when he does something good, but I accept that I look at him differently to others, but I just don't see an upside to him, he's always going to be player I don't understand.
 

immortalmike

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Wow, strongly disagree with that. Since he's been back in the side he's taken a lot of risky kicks. Especially ones back into the middle of the ground in a dangerous position which he's nailed which allowed us to access the whole ground.

Obviously he's a far from proven prospect, but you're just wayyyyy off the mark with that one, imo.
So much agree.

Btw the way I don't dislike Biggs. I don't want to get rid of him, I just think we have better alternatives to him on our list, but I think he could be a good 25-28 list player, ie he'd be the one who comes in when there's a small defender injury etc
Like? Murph and Boyd are 33 and Webb will probably be a mid.
 

Pannalstaroz

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I've said for the last 4 weeks that we'll see how the players who are doing the job well against poor sides go up against WC and North. Of course I hope they dominate and we win and I'm wrong, but I'll be interested to see how Redpath and Talia go.

By the way we're awesome and this ride has been incredible.

Can't wait for all the shows tomorrow :D

Btw I only got to qtr time on the replay. I might ff through the 3rd because (a) it never happened and (b) Talia wasn't awesome.
 

immortalmike

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JJ is better, Webb is better and will play half back. He was recruited to play half back.
And we still need one or two more. We played Murph, Boyd, Wood, Darley and Biggs this week. So replace the oldies with JJ and Webb (even if I rate him as an eventual mid) we still need to replace Biggs and Darley.
 

Cori

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At worst Biggs becomes a 22 - 28ish player, at best he's in the 18. Slowly watching him grow in confidence off half back and his run and carry is good. His kick isn't penetrating but it's accurate and he has hit up targets and full speed a number of times. Reckon he'll make it. Talia though, he frustrates the hell out of me too. So freaking slow to make a decision. The game seemed to always slow down when the ball was in his hands. Every time he kicked out of defence it seemed to go to a contest which often ended up coming back his way - especially in the 3rd. Be glad to see Roberts back in. I reckon the Hamling/Roberts show will be the main event going forward.
 

threenewpadlocks

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I get the feeling that people wanting Talia out means that they exaggerate his bad acts in their mind.

For example, compare his game to Hamling

Talia from memory lost one one-on-one contest, gave away a 50/50 in another any by means was giving away hight.
Compare that to Hamling who also lost a contest or two that he shouldn't have, from memory, the first one of the game that led to a point.

The difference is Talia constantly had the know-how to get into space, mop up the ball, be an outlet option when Melbourne were putting us under pressure inside our defensive 50 and get into the right places to have 20+ touches and 10+ marks. Hamling didn't get anywhere near that. Talia then took a few nice intercept marks in the last quarter, and Hamling again didn't get anywhere near that.

Yet, people are going on and on and on about Talia's game, saying how terrible it is. I'm scratching my head. Sure, he might have screwed up a kick here and lost a one-on-one contest there, but people seem to putting an unusual emphasis on those mistakes and not his overall positive game. I'd rather trade Hamling to be honest if we could get the same value out of them in the trade table in all honestly.

Anyone who wants to delist/trade Talia is kidding themselves. The amount of predisposition in bias in rating Talia is staggering. Anyone who thinks Hamling is going to be a better player than Talia across their entire careers ... umm. Just be glad that Hamling is playing a role after being a delisted free agent. Talia's got plenty more upside to him and will almost certainly have the better career 12 years down the track.
 

TheHoneyBadger

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I hope a nice contract extension is in the pipeline for Tobes. He's in our elite bracket of talent imo, shattered he didn't have more opportunities to show it this season.
Question. Would people part with this years and next years first rounders for Steven May?
Yep. Superstar.
 

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bobby2

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I get the feeling that people wanting Talia out means that they exaggerate his bad acts in their mind.

For example, compare his game to Hamling

Talia from memory lost one one-on-one contest, gave away a 50/50 in another any by means was giving away hight.
Compare that to Hamling who also lost a contest or two that he shouldn't have, from memory, the first one of the game that led to a point.

The difference is Talia constantly had the know-how to get into space, mop up the ball, be an outlet option when Melbourne were putting us under pressure inside our defensive 50 and get into the right places to have 20+ touches and 10+ marks. Hamling didn't get anywhere near that. Talia then took a few nice intercept marks in the last quarter, and Hamling again didn't get anywhere near that.

Yet, people are going on and on and on about Talia's game, saying how terrible it is. I'm scratching my head. Sure, he might have screwed up a kick here and lost a one-on-one contest there, but people seem to putting an unusual emphasis on those mistakes and not his overall positive game. I'd rather trade Hamling to be honest if we could get the same value out of them in the trade table in all honestly.

Anyone who wants to delist/trade Talia is kidding themselves. The amount of predisposition in bias in rating Talia is staggering. Anyone who thinks Hamling is going to be a better player than Talia across their entire careers ... umm. Just be glad that Hamling is playing a role after being a delisted free agent. Talia's got plenty more upside to him and will almost certainly have the better career 12 years down the track.
Gotta agree on their games today and keeping talia, but it's absolutely valid for people to think hamling has more upside than talia. Hamling is a much better athlete- his combination of closing speed and leaping ability would almost rival wood (and he actually bears a lot of similarities to wood). Generally, his intercept marking is very good, as is his spoiling. When hamling gets the ball, he is far better at setting up attacking plays than talia.

Talia is stronger (useful, but not so important when our defence is mostly based on interception), has better endurance and is better at providing an outlet option. Over time, hamling could improve his ability to provide an outlet option a lot (easton wood didn't get much of the ball early in his career either), and his disposal and speed could make him a far better attacking weapon than talia. I believe hamling has a much higher ceiling (generally what upside means) than talia, because talia will never have the same speed, leap, reach or disposal that hamling has, whereas hamling can potentially develop more in most of his weak areas.

Being a DFA is pretty irrelevant- geelong should never have delisted him.

It's a bit of a moot point anyway, because both can definitely play together. If anything, their strengths complement each other, as talia can engage an opponent's body while hamling floats across the front to mark. Neither should be traded, but it's certainly valid to think Hamling might be better long term.
 
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Gotta agree on their games today and keeping talia, but it's absolutely valid for people to think hamling has more upside than talia. Hamling is a much better athlete- his combination of closing speed and leaping ability would almost rival wood (and he actually bears a lot of similarities to wood). Generally, his intercept marking is very good, as is his spoiling. When hamling gets the ball, he is far better at setting up attacking plays than talia.

Talia is stronger (useful, but not so important when our defence is mostly based on interception), has better endurance and is better at providing an outlet option. Over time, hamling could improve his ability to provide an outlet option a lot (easton wood didn't get much of the ball early in his career either), and his disposal and speed could make him a far better attacking weapon than talia. I believe hamling has a much higher ceiling (generally what upside means) than talia, because talia will never have the same speed, leap, reach or disposal that hamling has, whereas hamling can potentially develop more in most of his weak areas.

Being a DFA is pretty irrelevant- geelong should never have delisted him.

It's a bit of a moot point anyway, because both can definitely play together. If anything, their strengths complement each other, as talia can engage an opponent's body while hamling floats across the front to mark. Neither should be traded, but it's certainly valid to think Hamling might be better long term.
I think Talia is going to be a star, I compare him to Rance. Early on Rance was lambasted for poor ball use etc. But look at him now. Alia is one that can play on the gorillas, Hamling cannot nor ever will be able to.
It is underrated by too many exactly what Talia does in the team. His kicking needs to continue to improve sure, but a lot of big guys in defence through history were poor kicks. His brother is very similar at Adelaide and doesn't seem to get the dislike that we show our Talia. I reckon in a couple of years a few will be eating humble pie.
 

BRWB

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I get the feeling that people wanting Talia out means that they exaggerate his bad acts in their mind.

For example, compare his game to Hamling

Talia from memory lost one one-on-one contest, gave away a 50/50 in another any by means was giving away hight.
Compare that to Hamling who also lost a contest or two that he shouldn't have, from memory, the first one of the game that led to a point.

The difference is Talia constantly had the know-how to get into space, mop up the ball, be an outlet option when Melbourne were putting us under pressure inside our defensive 50 and get into the right places to have 20+ touches and 10+ marks. Hamling didn't get anywhere near that. Talia then took a few nice intercept marks in the last quarter, and Hamling again didn't get anywhere near that.

Yet, people are going on and on and on about Talia's game, saying how terrible it is. I'm scratching my head. Sure, he might have screwed up a kick here and lost a one-on-one contest there, but people seem to putting an unusual emphasis on those mistakes and not his overall positive game. I'd rather trade Hamling to be honest if we could get the same value out of them in the trade table in all honestly.

Anyone who wants to delist/trade Talia is kidding themselves. The amount of predisposition in bias in rating Talia is staggering. Anyone who thinks Hamling is going to be a better player than Talia across their entire careers ... umm. Just be glad that Hamling is playing a role after being a delisted free agent. Talia's got plenty more upside to him and will almost certainly have the better career 12 years down the track.
Talia lost three one on ones in the third that I can recall.

FWIW I'm not suggesting any of our KPDs are any good one on one relative to the rest of the league. Roberts loses 34%, WC who play a similar system to us has Schofield losing 23%, McGovern 26%. While Talia is worse than Roberts according to the below afl article.

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2015-08-05/department-of-defence-who-are-your-teams-best-backmen

It's clear from this article that our Kpd one on one work is the worst in the comp (and that is no doubt why the club has reportedly been searching high and low for a Kpd).

There is no bias in any of this, it is simple fact.
 

Dav1d

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Talia lost three one on ones in the third that I can recall.

.
He may have lost one (in that third), the rest you could not entirely blame on him
One that sticks out is where there was a turn over in the middle of the ground when all of our defenders were pushed up
so he struggled to get back because the ball got moved so quickly back, I know I remember that one vividly

short of him pulling a miracle out of his arse, there is no defender in the league that could have stopped some of those goals
 

Roscoe_au

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I've given Biggs votes the last 2 weeks.

And he doesn't just take the safe option. I love it when he cuts back through the middle. Good size, good speed, composed and skilful. Right age bracket for us, defends well and a great guy. What's not to like?
Like Biggs in the backline. Obvious Murphy replacement in a year or two for mine.

Agree with the comment before about Webb being a midfielder. Needs more time in the middle in the VFL.
 
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Sam Grimley kicked another bag for Box Hill. Still not good enough to get in the Hawks seniors.

I think he's 24? No interest?
Do we need a player of his type? Jordan Lisle is the leading goal kicker in the VFL but I wouldn't consider him. We have Redpath and Boyd, why would we need another similar type? Not to mention Ayce Cordy who is a VFL ruck/fwd
 

Doggies_13

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Do we need a player of his type? Jordan Lisle is the leading goal kicker in the VFL but I wouldn't consider him. We have Redpath and Boyd, why would we need another similar type? Not to mention Ayce Cordy who is a VFL ruck/fwd
One question with grimley would he be an upgrade on ayce I think he would but at the same time I'm struggling to see us delisting more than 3 guys off the senior list so I'd only be going to the draft or grabbing best 22 players this offseason
 
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One question with grimley would he be an upgrade on ayce I think he would but at the same time I'm struggling to see us delisting more than 3 guys off the senior list so I'd only be going to the draft or grabbing best 22 players this offseason
Agree he would be an upgrade on Ayce. But he is still primarily a VFL player. I don't like the idea of trading for players as backups. I would rather develop kids through the draft.
My question is : does he have an upside, will he improve, or is what he is now as good as he will ever get?
 

Mutt

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I get the feeling that people wanting Talia out means that they exaggerate his bad acts in their mind.

For example, compare his game to Hamling

Talia from memory lost one one-on-one contest, gave away a 50/50 in another any by means was giving away hight.
Compare that to Hamling who also lost a contest or two that he shouldn't have, from memory, the first one of the game that led to a point.

The difference is Talia constantly had the know-how to get into space, mop up the ball, be an outlet option when Melbourne were putting us under pressure inside our defensive 50 and get into the right places to have 20+ touches and 10+ marks. Hamling didn't get anywhere near that. Talia then took a few nice intercept marks in the last quarter, and Hamling again didn't get anywhere near that.

Yet, people are going on and on and on about Talia's game, saying how terrible it is. I'm scratching my head. Sure, he might have screwed up a kick here and lost a one-on-one contest there, but people seem to putting an unusual emphasis on those mistakes and not his overall positive game. I'd rather trade Hamling to be honest if we could get the same value out of them in the trade table in all honestly.

Anyone who wants to delist/trade Talia is kidding themselves. The amount of predisposition in bias in rating Talia is staggering. Anyone who thinks Hamling is going to be a better player than Talia across their entire careers ... umm. Just be glad that Hamling is playing a role after being a delisted free agent. Talia's got plenty more upside to him and will almost certainly have the better career 12 years down the track.
I have always been skeptical about whether Talia will ever be the answer to one of our key defender positions, but I agree with your analysis 3NP. Talia has been serviceable over the past month. When we take into account his number of senior games played and that he doesn't get much of a chop-out from other tall defenders (eg. Gibson coming over the top with the big spoil,) he is worth persevering with.

I still see Talia as a potential trade target though, however we'd better have plan B in place before we let him walk.
 

bobby2

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I think Talia is going to be a star, I compare him to Rance. Early on Rance was lambasted for poor ball use etc. But look at him now. Alia is one that can play on the gorillas, Hamling cannot nor ever will be able to.
It is underrated by too many exactly what Talia does in the team. His kicking needs to continue to improve sure, but a lot of big guys in defence through history were poor kicks. His brother is very similar at Adelaide and doesn't seem to get the dislike that we show our Talia. I reckon in a couple of years a few will be eating humble pie.
I don't remember rance's kicking technique being bad, I think it was more his decision making (although it is a while back, so I might be wrong there). Yes, hamling can't play on gorillas, but he can play on anyone else, whether they are tall or small. His brother is a star, and a long way ahead of Michael. Look, I'm not trying to say we should get rid of Talia and I agree that some around here are judging him way too harshly. I was just saying in my last post that it's not unreasonable for some people to rate hamling higher.

As well as rance, there was a guy named Brian Harris who used to worry about his opponent's body every time the ball came in. Once rance and lake learned to back themselves in the air and just go for the ball, they became elite defenders. If Talia can learn this, he'll be a very good defender. Segue to trade thread stuff- I wouldn't be against bringing lake in for next year to teach our young defenders and improve our chances at the pointy end of the season (depending on his attitude and our number of available list spots, of course). He has played in Beveridge's backline, so he should be able to slip into our system pretty easily.
 
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