Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

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Dry Rot

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Yep, they're all valid points, I just couldn't be bothered collating other stats as well.

It was mainly a response to a glib oneliner.

Also, I didn't make the comparison to Morris, I was replying to that comparison.

Jones had some breakout games early this season, and personally I think with Crameri into the side and Grant hopefully gaining consistency, the three of them should be able to work off each other next year. Plus Campbell and Stringer as other forward options, I would hope Jones can benefit from that.

As far as I'm concerned, he's a forward, and has shown that he knows what to do, just not consistently enough. Whether he works up the ground or closer to goal, I'm confident his career will pan out just fine when he has some consistent support. It's easy to pot a kid in his 2nd or 3rd full season when he's the sole KPF focus, and struggles. Let's see how he goes with genuine support.
Yes, but Jones has had 5 years in the system IIRC.
 

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fronkalicious

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Jones went to school during his first year on our list. Strange but true.

I don't ever see him becoming a 50 goal a year guy and I agree with DR that he doesn't have the natural forward instincts of a stringer or Dickson.

But he does have a rare, and highly valuable ability to take contested marks. Ideally I see him as a second tall, and 35 goals a year would be an excellent result for him.
 

House_of_Dahl

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Dunno where else to post this so I'll put it here in the default thread...

Sounds like a more advanced version of the treatment Coons has been getting.

"...a unique stem cell harvesting procedure somewhat similar to the treatment Kobe and other athletes have gone to Germany for to have their blood be drawn, spun in a centrifuge and reinjected into the knee, with the goal of reducing inflammation..."

http://www.sporttechie.com/2013/11/...a-major-impact-on-sports-injuries/#more-15475
 

Wizard17

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Jones went to school during his first year on our list. Strange but true.

I don't ever see him becoming a 50 goal a year guy and I agree with DR that he doesn't have the natural forward instincts of a stringer or Dickson.

But he does have a rare, and highly valuable ability to take contested marks. Ideally I see him as a second tall, and 35 goals a year would be an excellent result for him.

Another thing, if you delist Jones and bring in a 18yo kid then that kid gets the best defender from day one gets bashed from pillar to post and thus gets injured or gets unconfident about getting smashed every week. Even if we get a key forward next year Jones stays until the kid can get around the right weight and fitness level to be able to compete at AFL level, or plays on the second tall until he is more consistent at the higher level and takes the number one away from Jones. Then Jones becomes the player Fronk says above, a second tall to take the pressure away from the gun.
 

Doggies7

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Looking too far ahead I know, but the ideal situation is Patton stays healthy all year but is in a similar situation to Gumbleton last season year where he is available for selection each week, but the pure number of big fwds at the club keeps him in the 2's more than he would like. Would get a bit frustrated wanting to get some playing time but having Boyd / Cameron / Tomlinson / Jaksch / Mccarthy etc to compete with makes him and the club happy to look at other options next offseason :)

Only problem is we will likely have to give up our 1st round pick say pick 6-10 ish in a draft stacked with young tall forwards, but that's a concern for next year.
 

VitalDread

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Only problem is we will likely have to give up our 1st round pick say pick 6-10 ish in a draft stacked with young tall forwards, but that's a concern for next year.
rather go into the draft instead of taking a injured player imo
 
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How often did he get the best opposition defender in 2011?
From memory - zero.
Well, probably the six games Hall didn't play. This year, probably every game he played. Yet this year he played some of his best games, had his best bags of goals, and looked confident early in the season when he had no Campbell as KP support. He lost his way a bit later in the season, but I saw him in a Wily game late in the season and he worked his butt off, lead and presented well, and was the key target from the midfield.

In 2012 he and Cordy only played 12 games each, with no other real KP forward, and we only won 5 games, so he would have copped the best tall defender in most of those games (even if both of them were playing).
 
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Jones went to school during his first year on our list. Strange but true.

I don't ever see him becoming a 50 goal a year guy and I agree with DR that he doesn't have the natural forward instincts of a stringer or Dickson.

But he does have a rare, and highly valuable ability to take contested marks. Ideally I see him as a second tall, and 35 goals a year would be an excellent result for him.
I don't expect him to be a 50 goal a year guy either, but wouldn't rule it out. 40 is quite achievable with other KPs to work with in tandem. With his marking ability he could play closer to goal, his kicking for goal improved this year as well (must be a surprise to other posters saying he's gone backwards).

Fronk - do you agree that Morris is a better forward, as that was the original statement - the (ridiculous) comparison was to Morris, not Stringer or Dickson?
 

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boydsno1

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Im one of the few who thinks Jones will make it. I think it's his tank holding him back atm. In first quarters of games his shown to be very hard to match up on and has improved his kicking for goal alot. With an improved tank and an extended out put in games we will be better for it. Stick with him i say.
 

fronkalicious

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I don't expect him to be a 50 goal a year guy either, but wouldn't rule it out. 40 is quite achievable with other KPs to work with in tandem. With his marking ability he could play closer to goal, his kicking for goal improved this year as well (must be a surprise to other posters saying he's gone backwards).

Fronk - do you agree that Morris is a better forward, as that was the original statement - the (ridiculous) comparison was to Morris, not Stringer or Dickson?
Fronk shoulders arms and lets that one go straight through to brad Haddin.

I really like jones. Very important part of the list and yep, he did improve a lot this year. Still a puppy in key forward years, and I would love for him to be a 40 goal a year guy.
 

King Harold

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Im one of the few who thinks Jones will make it. I think it's his tank holding him back atm. In first quarters of games his shown to be very hard to match up on and has improved his kicking for goal alot. With an improved tank and an extended out put in games we will be better for it. Stick with him i say.
No your not , plenty more to worry about other than him.
Still very young and playing the toughest position on the ground.
I have more problems with the smaller brigade that have been on the list for a while and can't get their hands on the ball enough or just havn't improved one jot.
Most on here know who I'm talking about.
 

timtamWB

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Looking too far ahead I know, but the ideal situation is Patton stays healthy all year but is in a similar situation to Gumbleton last season year where he is available for selection each week, but the pure number of big fwds at the club keeps him in the 2's more than he would like. Would get a bit frustrated wanting to get some playing time but having Boyd / Cameron / Tomlinson / Jaksch / Mccarthy etc to compete with makes him and the club happy to look at other options next offseason :)

Only problem is we will likely have to give up our 1st round pick say pick 6-10 ish in a draft stacked with young tall forwards, but that's a concern for next year.
Yes we'd have to give up pick 6-10. BUT Patton already has some development, and is a #1 pick. I'd say that's a win.
 

Mofra

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I really like jones. Very important part of the list and yep, he did improve a lot this year. Still a puppy in key forward years, and I would love for him to be a 40 goal a year guy.
40 goals wins the goalkicking award for many clubs - yet there seems plenty who call a 22 year old kid in a bottom 4 side a dud when he doesn't kick 50.
 

TBOW

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Im one of the few who thinks Jones will make it. I think it's his tank holding him back atm. In first quarters of games his shown to be very hard to match up on and has improved his kicking for goal alot. With an improved tank and an extended out put in games we will be better for it. Stick with him i say.
I think Jones will definitely make a decent enough forward. He's already serviceable.
I would like to see him starting a bit deeper next year- give him a chance to jump into some more packs.
It doesn't seem like Macca sees this as his role though, so I probably have no idea.
 

Mofra

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I respectfully disagree. Can you name another club which has had a poorer KPF as their main target over the past 2 years?
So he gets marked down because he gets little support - to me that does not make sense.

The flip side to that argument is - which young KPF gets as little support as Liam Jones?
Jeremy Cameron is the only one I can think of.
 

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Jones improved last year, and this was evident early in the season but he had trouble sustaining it. I would expect him to improve again and sustain it for longer this year, which he needs to, and if he manages to do so then the angst over a CHF diminishes somewhat. The reverse is also true.
I follow the horses a bit and as a general rule bigger horses take more time to grow into themselves and mature to a level where they can sustain good performances. Even the very good ones, some of the bigger ones (say a 16.2 hander like Might and Power) are only really able to sustain their true level of performance as 4+ year olds after they've grown into their frames. So a number of KPs and ruckman will fit into that category and you're likely to see consistent performance in many of them only from 23+.
Anyway, back to Jones. Rather than peg him to x amount of goals per year, I'd prefer to judge his progress on conversion rate and the number of opportunities he creates for himself and others. As a CHF, if he's able to convert at 50% from 40+m then he's valuable because a defender is forced to go with him (and probably a good tall defender). That creates opportunities for other forwards and really the CHF is part of a forward unit so again I prefer not to look at him in isolation. I see his challenge when attacking as threefold. To a) get himself in position often enough to be a viable/potential target and then b) to win his share of those opportunities he's worked hard enough to create and then c) convert at 50% or better. If he can do that then he goes a long way to being part of the longer term.
 

TBOW

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I respectfully disagree. Can you name another club which has had a poorer KPF as their main target over the past 2 years? I don't think he's provided "serviceable" value at all over the past 2 years.
Fair point, I guess all of my examples are all circumstantial but I would say-
Sydney pre-Tippet
Freo with Pav playing on the ball
Carlton & Brisbane with Waite & Brown out, which has been considerable time in the last 2 years.
Melbourne & Adelaide also due to injuries this year
- so I am clutching at straws a bit, but how do you define serviceable?
How many teams do you think would name him round 1 if they had him? Teams generally need 2 key forwards...
 

timtamWB

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Fair point, I guess all of my examples are all circumstantial but I would say-
Sydney pre-Tippet
Freo with Pav playing on the ball
Carlton & Brisbane with Waite & Brown out, which has been considerable time in the last 2 years.
Melbourne & Adelaide also due to injuries this year
- so I am clutching at straws a bit, but how do you define serviceable?
How many teams do you think would name him round 1 if they had him? Teams generally need 2 key forwards...
Brisbane had Merrett when Brown went down.


The difference with these teams (apart from Melbourne) was that they had good quality in the forward line even without the big forward, which is what we haven't had much of during the past couple of years. We've built this up with Grant showing something, Dahlhaus, Crameri, Campbell showing more, Hunter, Stringer etc.
 
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