Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

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Doggies7

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I never thought GWS were seriously considering trading the 1st overall pick last year with Boyd a good addition to their young KPF stocks. But surely this year with their plethora of KPF's and no desperate need for another talented young midfielder, they will really look to trade their first pick for mature talent who can help them win and relieve the pressure starting to build. What would it take to get that pick? Say it's pick #1 or 2 and we end up with pick #5, we could grab two potential star key position players to add to our list and finally set us up with the required spine to win a premiership.

The only potential issue is if one of the big guys in the top 5 looks to be a star KPD which GWS would probably love to add to their list. What would it take to get that pick from the Giants?

IF we could walk away with :

Peter Wright
Hugh Goddard
Viojo - Rainbow
Cordy

That would be huge for our key position stocks and really set us up for the future, I think we have more than enough mids where we can go a draft without going mid heavy and really address our biggest weakness.
 

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GrandBlue

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I never thought GWS were seriously considering trading the 1st overall pick last year with Boyd a good addition to their young KPF stocks. But surely this year with their plethora of KPF's and no desperate need for another talented young midfielder, they will really look to trade their first pick for mature talent who can help them win and relieve the pressure starting to build. What would it take to get that pick? Say it's pick #1 or 2 and we end up with pick #5, we could grab two potential star key position players to add to our list and finally set us up with the required spine to win a premiership.

The only potential issue is if one of the big guys in the top 5 looks to be a star KPD which GWS would probably love to add to their list. What would it take to get that pick from the Giants?

IF we could walk away with :

Peter Wright
Hugh Goddard
Viojo - Rainbow
Cordy

That would be huge for our key position stocks and really set us up for the future, I think we have more than enough mids where we can go a draft without going mid heavy and really address our biggest weakness.
Total myth that GWS don't need to draft any more kids.

Everyone assumes they're just building for their foretold Premiership Window, forgetting that they'll still be here beyond that period of time.

GWS want to recruit high quality young players every draft. The chances of them coughing up their first rounder this year are the same as every other year.
 

fronkalicious

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Total myth that GWS don't need to draft any more kids.

Everyone assumes they're just building for their foretold Premiership Window, forgetting that they'll still be here beyond that period of time.

GWS want to recruit high quality young players every draft. The chances of them coughing up their first rounder this year are the same as every other year.
Disagree with that. They're caught in an awful cycle of using high draft picks on kids, devaluing them for a couple of years and then trading them away for unders. They need to balance their squad immediately by bringing in more mature talent or they'll never get anywhere.

Gws need to make 3 draft picks tho. Then the rules. So I look at it another way. They want 3 picks (or at least 2 - they could take a player really really late in the draft as a token selection) as high as humanly possible. So rather than targeting their pick, id be looking to trade our pick to them for some of their young talent and trying to grab their 2nd rounder as well.
 

GrandBlue

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Disagree with that. They're caught in an awful cycle of using high draft picks on kids, devaluing them for a couple of years and then trading them away for unders. They need to balance their squad immediately by bringing in more mature talent or they'll never get anywhere.
Taylor Adams & Dom Tyson are the only first rounders they've lost so far, and they got compensated pretty well for both of them.

Any sort of cycle that consistently brings in high quality young players is a good one. Even if they need to axe some of their promising players in the future, they'll still have a ridiculously good team & a more balanced age group that will keep them strong for a very long time.

If they adopt the mentality of "we have our crop of gun youngsters, time to trade our best picks for experienced players", they'll wind up exactly like Brisbane after their flag window.

Gws need to make 3 draft picks tho. Then the rules. So I look at it another way. They want 3 picks (or at least 2 - they could take a player really really late in the draft as a token selection) as high as humanly possible. So rather than targeting their pick, id be looking to trade our pick to them for some of their young talent and trying to grab their 2nd rounder as well.
Look at GWS's trades since 2011; a huge amount of them are pick upgrades, and for good reason too.
 

Next Waiting

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I'd like carlisle ahead of anyone else. I noticed that Westoff is the go to guy for Port forward and back depending on the state of the game. Think roughy could play that role and carlisle would allow him to do it.
 

fronkalicious

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Taylor Adams & Dom Tyson are the only first rounders they've lost so far, and they got compensated pretty well for both of them.

Any sort of cycle that consistently brings in high quality young players is a good one. Even if they need to axe some of their promising players in the future, they'll still have a ridiculously good team & a more balanced age group that will keep them strong for a very long time.

If they adopt the mentality of "we have our crop of gun youngsters, time to trade our best picks for experienced players", they'll wind up exactly like Brisbane after their flag window.


Look at GWS's trades since 2011; a huge amount of them are pick upgrades, and for good reason too.
They got a 7 pick upgrade for Tyson and Heath shaw for Adams. Massive unders for both. And they'll lose some more this year again.
 

GrandBlue

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Thread starter #10,557
They got a 7 pick upgrade for Tyson
It's unders only in hindsight. Most initially thought that deal favoured GWS based on what Tyson had shown in his 2 years.
and Heath shaw for Adams.
No. Heath Shaw is a proven gun; he might be old but he'll be a quality player well into his 30s, whereas Adams is a good, small inside midfielder who was out of contract. Both teams got good value.
And they'll lose some more this year again.
and in exchange, they'll get more gun young players that'll help even out their age group.
 
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fronkalicious

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That's unders only in hindsight. Most initially thought that deal favoured GWS based on what Tyson had shown in 2 years.

No. Heath Shaw is a proven gun; he might be old but he'll be a quality player well into his 30s, whereas Adams is a good, small inside midfielder who was out of contract. Both teams got good value.

and in exchange, they'll get more gun young players that'll help even out their age group.
Have to agree to disagree on that stuff
 

StringyDog

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They got a 7 pick upgrade for Tyson and Heath shaw for Adams. Massive unders for both. And they'll lose some more this year again.
Actually they got a 7 pick upgrade on pick 9 and also on their second round pick from 21 to 14, hardly massive unders, will end up a win win trade
 

Doggies7

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Total myth that GWS don't need to draft any more kids.

Everyone assumes they're just building for their foretold Premiership Window, forgetting that they'll still be here beyond that period of time.

GWS want to recruit high quality young players every draft. The chances of them coughing up their first rounder this year are the same as every other year.
I never said they don't need to draft anymore kids, they absolutely need to keep drafting and turning their list over. But a few good mature age players are worth more to them than another #1 pick to develop. I'm not talking about Addisons or Gilhams but guys like Higgins, Wallis, Roughead ( I personally wouldn't trade) etc who would be best 22 players and keep then competitive each week and pushing up the ladder. There was already a bit of pressure mounting last year and if they go through this year and finish last again, there will be a lot stronger talk from within to see what their pick can bring back.

The Giants will still get to add a few good kids with with their 2nd and 3rd round picks and the guys they would receive in the hypothetical trade aren't going to be old by any stretch.
 

GrandBlue

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Thread starter #10,561
I never said they don't need to draft anymore kids, they absolutely need to keep drafting and turning their list over. But a few good mature age players are worth more to them than another #1 pick to develop. I'm not talking about Addisons or Gilhams but guys like Higgins, Wallis, Roughead ( I personally wouldn't trade) etc who would be best 22 players and keep then competitive each week and pushing up the ladder. There was already a bit of pressure mounting last year and if they go through this year and finish last again, there will be a lot stronger talk from within to see what their pick can bring back.

The Giants will still get to add a few good kids with with their 2nd and 3rd round picks and the guys they would receive in the hypothetical trade aren't going to be old by any stretch.
Yes, they want gun 21-26 year olds, and yes, they would've traded pick 1 last year in a heartbeat for one, but there are plenty of good reasons for why it didn't happen & won't happen.

-The player has to want to go there
-GWS has to want the player
-The Other Club has to value the pick higher than the player their losing

This is why 99.99999% of hypothetical trade ideas are pointless discussions.

Everyone underestimates the third point as well; a lot of posters here would probably be elated with the prospect of trading Roughead for Tom Boyd, but the reality is, our coaching staff would take Roughead in a heartbeat, because he's an important young player for us & been developing here for years, whereas Boyd is still an unproven youngster. Same applies to Cotchin, Fyfe, Dangerfield, Beams & all the other players GWS would've traded pick 1 for.

The Giants will always look to ensure their first 3 picks are as high as possible, and aren't any more likely to trade a high pick than any other club in the competition. Do they need experienced guns? Sure they do, every other club needs them as well.
 

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VitalDread

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WESTERN Bulldogs still feel short-changed by the compensation the club received for the loss of Callan Ward to Greater Western Sydney.

Bulldogs list manager Jason McCartney said the tough midfielder’s excellent form over his first 50 games at the Giants proves that one first round draft pick was not enough compared to the doubly rich reward Melbourne received in exchange for the loss of Tom Scully.

“It would have been nice when you see some of the compensation the other clubs got,” McCartney said.

“Especially considering Cal is captain and best and fairest winner and continues to dominate at such a young age.

“Another pick for us in the first round somewhere would have been fair compensation.”


Jack Riewoldt boots eleven against GWS Giants2:36

Jack Riewoldt has booted 11 goals and two behinds in a dominant performance against the GWS Giants, putting a controversial week behind him in the best possible way.



McCartney said the club wanted to keep Ward in late 2011 but lauded the development of the man the Dogs used the single compensation pick on, slick midfielder Jackson Macrae.

The talent expert also warned that the start-up concessions handed to expansion clubs Gold Coast Suns and GWS were over the top.

He said the mini-draft system, which provided GWS with extra picks (No. 4 and No. 10) in the 2011 national draft and No. 2 and No. 3 in 2012, should have been scrapped.


A young Callan Ward in his days with the Western Bulldogs. Picture: Michael Klein Source: News Limited



Gold Coast was the other major benefactor from the mini-draft, using it to gain outstanding youngsters Jaeger O’Meara and Jack Martin from it.

McCartney said the Suns and Giants had cleverly exploited the rules to their advantage.

He said the system was designed to help the Giants secure established senior players, not load up on more high draft picks.

“They’re going to be really strong clubs and we are seeing that in Gold Coast now and I’ve got no doubt the Giants, with that much quality young talent, it will be hard for them to go wrong,” McCartney said.

“I maybe wonder now in retrospect, and maybe a few others do as well, whether the four mini-draft boys - whether that was a bit too much.

“I think everyone’s thoughts and maybe intentions for that was that they would be used not on draft picks, but they would be used on established talent.

“Gold Coast in the end have ended up with two of those gun kids because they were obviously in a position to give up more draft picks, because they had a massive stockpile.”
 

Igloo

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While I agree the compensation (in comparison to others - 1 first round pick should have been enough) was bullshit, I have no idea why that's been dragged up again. Kind of embarrassing if we actively brought it up. Less so if Jay Clark was doing an article on a club perspective of the GC and GWS concessions and brought it up himself though.
 

threenewpadlocks

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I mentioned in my post in the McCartney thread about how Gold Coast had 15 players on their list with between 40 and 70 games. When these players get to around ~100 games in 2-4 years, watch out.

And because players like staying with success, if the expansion teams can stay top 2/top 4 for year after year these gun players will take pay cuts to stay with their mates and stay in successful flags.

Of course it's over the top, but what can you do.
 

crownie

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With news of Jeremy Cameron thinking of coming back to Melbourne I'd like to think someone at the club is thinking of a way to get Him or Patton.

Hopefully GWS keeping throwing Patton down back and he becomes disillusioned with being there.

Reports are there is a few good forwards in the next draft as well.
 

fronkalicious

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Patton is such a lemon on the deck right now. Pretty slow and can't shake his man on the lead either. Not completely against having a dash at him, but he's far from perfect. Needs plenty of work to be a consistent threat IMO.
 

threenewpadlocks

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Patton is such a lemon on the deck right now. Pretty slow and can't shake his man on the lead either. Not completely against having a dash at him, but he's far from perfect. Needs plenty of work to be a consistent threat IMO.
Do you think his knee issues have something to do with that?
I mean, if he moves on from his knee reco and slowly builds up his speed and mobility again, that could be part of the "plenty of work"
 

Next Waiting

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With news of Jeremy Cameron thinking of coming back to Melbourne I'd like to think someone at the club is thinking of a way to get Him or Patton.

Hopefully GWS keeping throwing Patton down back and he becomes disillusioned with being there.

Reports are there is a few good forwards in the next draft as well.
Say what now? Where did this come from?
 

Next Waiting

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Gold Coast was the other major benefactor from the mini-draft, using it to gain outstanding youngsters Jaeger O’Meara and Jack Martin from it.

McCartney said the Suns and Giants had cleverly exploited the rules to their advantage.
There's that phrase again. Let's just say that we say they cheated. Right Ralphy and Mikey;) ya tossers.
 

fronkalicious

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Do you think his knee issues have something to do with that?
I mean, if he moves on from his knee reco and slowly builds up his speed and mobility again, that could be part of the "plenty of work"
Lack of pre-season after the op wouldn't have helped. He's far from an agile type though. I'm not convinced yet. Rooting for him though.
 

VitalDread

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PUPPY SCHOOL

Western Bulldogs’ list chief Jason McCartney on:

Marcus Bontempelli, 18

“We weren’t reaching (at last year’s draft) for something that was not there. Performance is there, character and make up, tick. Where is he going to play? Inside mid? He is 192cm. But he can play forward. He has played some half back and he is still growing, so who is to say in time he can’t play all three areas of the ground?”

Nathan Hrovat, 19

“Because he is so driven and determined he probably brought himself undone early because he didn’t understand his body and just ignored some little things because he was so desperate to play. In the AFL games he played last year he really impacted with his ball use through the midfield.

Lachie Hunter, 19

“He is a natural footballer. He has really good instinct, he is smart in traffic, and has really good goal sense. The athleticism he never looks great on a running track, but what he has got is good agility and good nous.”

Jackson Macrae, 19

“He is a really driven and single-minded individual. When Bucks (Nathan Buckley) and Vossy (Michael Voss) and Hirdy (James Hird) and those guys started out, you could just see they were driven animals and ‘Jacko’ is just so focused.”

Jake Stringer, 20

“In an ideal world, you probably would not have had him playing much (in his 2012 draft year) on the back of that horrific (broken) leg injury. In an AFL program I don’t know whether he would have (played). There would have been a much more thorough rehabilitation process. So we knew that would have taken a while (to recuperate) but not only that get the tank up. so he has shown some good signs.”

Ayce Cordy, 23

“This last week may have been the first time in four or five years that he has had six or seven weeks of continuity in playing and training (after shoulder injuries). He started to string some games together, showing some signs. He has been around for a while but it’s widely known that talls take longer to develop and we will give Ayce the appropriate time.”
 

VogonProsthetnic

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I mentioned in my post in the McCartney thread about how Gold Coast had 15 players on their list with between 40 and 70 games. When these players get to around ~100 games in 2-4 years, watch out.

And because players like staying with success, if the expansion teams can stay top 2/top 4 for year after year these gun players will take pay cuts to stay with their mates and stay in successful flags.

Of course it's over the top, but what can you do.
The free agency rules may be a problem for GWS and GCS. All their players will become eligible at the same time. The WA clubs will be right into O'Meara, Matera, Swallow and Harley and the vic clubs will be interested the GWS players the next year. WIll be pretty hard to match all the offers

The other problem is that after this year they won't be getting any high picks for at least 6 or 7 years. Going to leave a big hole in their lists.
 
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