Strategy Trade and List Management thread 2.(...the waiting for the hammer to fall edition)

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threenewpadlocks

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I'm totally fine with getting Cloke if he understands he has a back up role. In that, if Boyd, Rougy and Campbell don't get injured or suspended, he's played every game for Footscray and he's fine with that.

Matter of fact is we need depth behind those players. We need players capable to holding a structure at AFL level should Boyd get injured, or Roughy get injured, or Campbell get injured.

18 year olds won't contribute in their first year. Generally there's no real mature key position player talent at state level like there is other positions like running defender or whatever, looking toward the state league probably isn't the go either.

In a world where Vickery got $500k per year, paying Cloke less than half that is perfectly fine with me if he understands he has a backup role.
 

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Trouble is a young player ready to take his spot we don't have. Getting Cloke doesn't stop us getting another key forward in the draft. In fact that's what I hope we do. Gives Cloke a few guys to mentor.

Still think Cloke will surprise some people next year, given he'all be playing for a coach that shows him a bit more love. He's only 29, hopefully drops 2-3kgs in the off season.

Not gonna lie though, there'll be frustrating moments where he'all miss a few gimmes but there'll be other moments where he might slot a few from the boundary about 50m out.

Swings and roundabouts.
Is that you bevo?
 

immortalmike

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I will be pretty upset if we do nothing over this period

Have to continue getting stronger not sit on our hands

And relying on Crameri and Murphy who neither have played for a year to improve is won't be enough.

We have made some average resigning this year already IMO so need to do some work on the next week.
The **** can you be upset? We've already done what none of us thought possible. Everything else is gravy.
 

Prochard123

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Note: If you don't have the decency to provide a sensitive answer ignore this post and don't respond.

What do you think about:
Assuming Witts goes pick 29

Pick 27, Pick 29, Travis Cloke

For

Pick 18, Pick 61 ?
 

Pannalstaroz

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Hello Premiers,

Sorry to intrude, just curious as to what you think Honeychurch would be worth?

*Apologies if it's been asked, did check with the search function but couldn't find a clear cut answer. :)
If you keep up the niceties, you can ask anything you want.
 

House_of_Dahl

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Note: If you don't have the decency to provide a sensitive answer ignore this post and don't respond.

What do you think about:
Assuming Witts goes pick 29

Pick 27, Pick 29, Travis Cloke

For

Pick 18, Pick 61 ?
In theory pick 18 for 27 and 29 is probably about right and a similar deal worked for us last year and we netted Dunkley and Collins. Problem is if we do it again this year we are forced to use next year's first under the new rules which could restrict our options too much so doubt it
 
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Note: If you don't have the decency to provide a sensitive answer ignore this post and don't respond.

What do you think about:
Assuming Witts goes pick 29

Pick 27, Pick 29, Travis Cloke

For

Pick 18, Pick 61 ?
good suggestion, but i think we should hold onto our first rounder this year and try and get one real good talent in
 
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Collins is a jet, but it will take him time (even beyond next year being the second year him being on our list) for him to develop his style of play to our team style of play.

Basically his style of play is to beat his man in a one-on-one battle, if that bloke is a full forward. He beats them when the ball hits the air, and he can stop them on the lead using crafty body positioning even if he's not the quickest. Basically he's a old-fashioned FB.

Sadly our team is the complete opposite where we play a hyper-modern style involving team defence, zoning off, and understanding that all 6 defenders have to be able to run and spread offensively when we win the ball and understand structures relating to teammates. It's basically the antithesis of the lockdown style that Collins plays. Thankfully in our clubs wise assessment through interviews when we drafted him, we determined him to be a highly malleable individual in understanding structures and positioning, otherwise we wouldn't have drafted him.

Remember for Dandenong if was Collins taking the best forwards and Weitering reading the play and zoning off players. But I get the feeling given an investment into Collins long-term, once he really hits his strides in understanding that structural, zoning, positioning element to his game (and it could take 4-5 years of play at both VFL and AFL level) he really could become a premier key defender in the competition.

Weitering was drafted number 1 because he had an innate ability to read the play and know when to zone off/when to stick to his man like almost no other 17/18 year old in the modern professional draft era. But there's almost no comparison for a player of his type, so we don't have any reference point in the past to see if a player like him has even more scope for that aspect of his game to improve.

What we do know, however, that drafting 17 year olds on the premise of how they defend through rolling zones or how they understand team defences is very difficult, very very difficult. 1) Because junior footy actually bans rolling zones and some elements of team defence - ie a maximum of 12 players zoning up in kick-ins (so your basic 3-4-5 zone that forwards engage in, but your defensive unit of 6 is actually legally forced to man up and not allowed to engage in a full 18-man press that Hawthorn made the AFL norm in 2008 and everybody has followed since), and players are informally ordered not to crowd the ball and engage in heavy presses at stoppages etc. And 2) because the element of understanding structures, presses, zoning in defence takes a hell of a long time, and it's unpredictable to determine who has an aptitutde for learning that in their 20's when they're 17/18. Consider Roberts, Hamling, Biggs, Boyd, Morris, Wood, Johannisen - all are famously low draft picks and people have mentioned it on this board, but it's also worth looking at draft analysis - basically the reason that they went so low in the draft is because whilst they all had the ability to engage strongly in team defence, you can't really tell that at U/18 level.

I understand why they do it at U/18 level - you want to the success of a team to be the sum of its parts, the parts being the raw talent of the players, in order to help develop individuals and let draft watchers better assess the offensive quality of individuals. But basically that gives you no opportunity to assess how these juniors have an understanding of playing in these rolling zones etc. In fact, the very argument that players like Boyd were able to be re-tooled as a defender because in a team defence style he's not competing against anyone - because he's not competing against those who have been taught a team defence style as juniors, because nobody has been. But it means that when Bevo wants to engage in a team defence style, he's teaching the players from scratch.

So this brings us back to Collins. Basically because he's never had to play a heavy team defence/rolling zone/pressing/zoning off style of play, it's going to take us time to develop that in his game. But given his strong one-on-one abilities, it's a good starting point. Given that he's ten times the physical one-on-one defender that Fletcher Roberts is, he only has to understand our structures about 80% of the quality of Roberts to take his place in the team. And given Bevo's success etc in re-tooling players like Boyd as defenders, he's going to do a good job of it.

For example, and I know it's not much to go on, but take his 1 game at AFL level this year. Certianly looked up to it from a purely defensive role and did as much as you can hope from an 18 year old key defender from that perspective, but the offensive side and the pace of the game seemed too much for him. I remember seeing him stick to his man like glue too often and not zone off to provide the extra number, and he simply didn't really know where to run and spread from an offensive point of view (only 4 disposals from 73% game time - even Roberts who hardly touches the ball tends to get double that, and would play a similar role to Collins in the team, gets double that).

Wow, that ended up being longer than I thought. And will likely be buried given the pace of this thread!
Can you bullet point that.. too time poor to actually read

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

CaptainMurphy

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Note: If you don't have the decency to provide a sensitive answer ignore this post and don't respond.

What do you think about:
Assuming Witts goes pick 29

Pick 27, Pick 29, Travis Cloke

For

Pick 18, Pick 61 ?
Note: Don't come onto another teams board and dictate the way you are replied to.

Having said that, here's my answer. He's going for a 4th rounder, you'll have to get used to it. So would I do 27 + 29 for 18? I would actually, in normal circumstances. The problem is though we are tight for list spots so trading one down for two is not a good move for us. We'd be looking to trade up if anything.
 

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Prochard123

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In theory pick 18 for 27 and 29 is probably about right and a similar deal worked for us last year and we netted Dunkley and Collins. Problem is if we do it again this year we are forced to use next year's first under the new rules which could restrict our options too much so doubt it
good suggestion, but i think we should hold onto our first rounder this year and try and get one real good talent in
Yes, good points. Also keep in mind that this year's draft is exceptional and very deep. Jonty Scharenberg was rated a top 5 pick at the start of the year but now appears to be available in the 25-30 range. William Drews also has been one of the most productive inside midfielders this draft who's in a similar boat as Matt Crouch, both being ball MAGNETS but are overlooked in the first round draft due to lack of X-Factor. In comparison, William Drews is more athletic in terms of pace and durability, and should also be in that 25-30 range.
 
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Note: If you don't have the decency to provide a sensitive answer ignore this post and don't respond.

What do you think about:
Assuming Witts goes pick 29

Pick 27, Pick 29, Travis Cloke

For

Pick 18, Pick 61 ?
I think a trade has already been agreed to which is roughly pick 73 for Cloke and he tears up his contract with the Pies.
 

BRWB

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Yes, good points. Also keep in mind that this year's draft is exceptional and very deep. Jonty Scharenberg was rated a top 5 pick at the start of the year but now appears to be available in the 25-30 range. William Drews also has been one of the most productive inside midfielders this draft who's in a similar boat as Matt Crouch, both being ball MAGNETS but are overlooked in the first round draft due to lack of X-Factor. In comparison, William Drews is more athletic in terms of pace and durability, and should also be in that 25-30 range.
The other potential flaw in your proposal is the assumption that Witts fetches P27. Not as big an assumption as the Pies fans posting they'd like Boyd for Cloke or our first or second rd for Cloke - but a sizeable assumption nonetheless.
 

Prochard123

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The other potential flaw in your proposal is the assumption that Witts fetches P27. Not as big an assumption as the Pies fans posting they'd like Boyd for Cloke or our first or second rd for Cloke - but a sizeable assumption nonetheless.
The pick 27 is ours, we're asking for pick 29 from Gold Coast in exchange for Witts.
 

littlenails

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He's bloody cheap though. It's not as if we are going to draft a top line key power forward with the
Pick we give up for Cloke. And if we do find a good KPF in the draft (don't see us trading one in) then when he's ready to overtake Cloke then we can pull the trigger.

What is there to lose?
What is there to lose?

How much is a pick worth?

How much is a position on the team worth in dollars? Even late picks and rookie spots have got us the likes of M Boyd, JJ, Picken, Dahlhaus and Morris. Even Chris Grant.

There is only a limited supply of positions.

Could be the difference between winning or losing a premiership.

Ten million dollars maybe? Not something to be frittered away or squandered.

I would only support the Cloke deal if I knew Bev was keen on it. Bev seems to be mistake proof at the moment.
 

VitalDread

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Note: If you don't have the decency to provide a sensitive answer ignore this post and don't respond.

What do you think about:
Assuming Witts goes pick 29

Pick 27, Pick 29, Travis Cloke

For

Pick 18, Pick 61 ?
No i rather net more gold coast picks higher up the draft and closer to our first rounder
 

Zgope1

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Trouble is a young player ready to take his spot we don't have. Getting Cloke doesn't stop us getting another key forward in the draft. In fact that's what I hope we do. Gives Cloke a few guys to mentor.

Still think Cloke will surprise some people next year, given he'all be playing for a coach that shows him a bit more love. He's only 29, hopefully drops 2-3kgs in the off season.

Not gonna lie though, there'll be frustrating moments where he'all miss a few gimmes but there'll be other moments where he might slot a few from the boundary about 50m out.

Swings and roundabouts.
true but i'd genuinely take any young kpf in the afl instead of him. we're in such a good position to find long term solutions to our problems. What's the point in filling the gap for two years, it'll only leave us with Redpath in two years anyway, so why not get someone to fight it out with him? I don't know who this is, could be a Stewart, an O'brien, an X Richards.

ah well maybe we've got something planned. I've been very trusting of the club the whole journey and when is better to trust them than after a flag, but still i'm on edge about it
 
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Essendon or your mob for peanuts. $450k/year deals on the table. More likely Essendon.

Won't be a Dog next year either way.
Still peanuts if he goes to saints? Essendon have us over a barrel (and would push our faces in it and happily drown us I would suspect if dodo got his way) because of the preseason draft. You'd like to think Stevens is a 3rd rounder if he goes elsewhere surely? He was best 22 for the premiers, THE **** PREMIERS, until he injured himself and struggled to recover.
 
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