Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Doggies_13]

Yeah that's fair enough

But so far he has played 29 games for the Lions, averages 13 possessions and kicked 11 goals. I know he is still young, but that's pretty much the same goal rate as most of our midfielders, exception of Bontempelli. I don't want to be drafting players based purely on their reserves output, especially the NEAFL. Would like to see him transform that form to seniors before declaring him our next goal kicking midfielder/small forward target that may solve our woes up front.

Fair but at the same time during the first 26 of those 29 games Brisbane were terrible they won 4 of 26 games. He offers something to work with and on the cheap and adds to what we lack with ball use and ability to hit the scoreboard and 4 years in the system. Never said he would save our woes up front. Said he would be on my target list along with many others like butler, Bolton, narkle and Martin. Our list lacks guys who are natural in front of goal we need to be looking every where.

Roughy is our man on a 1 plus 2 playing then coach role

I would definitely give Roughead a year solely on the experience he could add and the impact he could have on your other forwards but I’d also look at other options too.

 

[Yojimbo]

How much would everyone here throw at Papley?

Not much, Tom Papley, Ben Ronke types (Rookie small forwards) are ten a penny there are plenty of them and they
don't attract high draft picks, (JDO) JUST DRAFT ONE.

Lachlan Murphy, Tyson Stengle, Shane McAdam, Eddie Betts, Charlie Cameron, Allen Christensen, Lewis Taylor,
Alex Fasolo, Cameron Polson, Kym LeBois, Josh Daicos, Jamie Elliott, Orazio Fantasia, Brayden Ham,
Irving Mosquito, Travis Coyler, Brandon Matera, Lachie Schultz, Sam Switowski, Michael Walters, Stefan Giro,
Lachie Fogarty, Gryan Miers, Quinton Narkle, Brandon Parfitt, Jake Tarca, Jermaine Jones, Ben Ainsworth,
DARCY MACPHERSON, Izak Rankine, Jacob Heron, Brent Daniels, Ian Hill, Zac Langdon, Luke Breust,
Paul Puopolo, Chad Wingard, Toby Bedford, Jeff Garlett, Jy Simpkin, Kayne Turner, Sam Gray, Robbie Gray,
Steven Motlop, Boyd Woodcock, Shai Bolton, Dan Butler, Jason Castagna, Jack Higgins, Daniel Rioli,
Liam Baker, Jade Gresham, Dean Kent, Ben Long, Jack Lonie, Robbie Young, Jarrod Cameron, Jamie Cripps,
Willie Rioli, Liam Ryan,

Plenty of the rookie/high pick variety and some low picks even a highlighted former father/son pick we
let slip in our wisdom, also some low numbers as well. Plenty of choices all around Australia in every
corner of the country. I did not include Ben Cavarra or Sam Lloyd or Rhylee West just to show we
already have at least three in the wings. Apologies if I missed any.

 

[paulveed]

Fringe players are fine, as long as it's because their club has a surplus of that type. Richmond with small forwards, West Coast with key forwards, Geelong with key defenders (did they delist them all last year or was it just Gardner?). Just like McLean can't push into our midfield but would be near the best at another club.

BoB, I'd rather if that is the case [excess of one type], that we pursue the talent that are keeping those players out, and let the other club/s then promote the marginal player/s to fill the gap we create. We cannot afford to just keep filling our list with players who are 'not quite good enough elsewhere', if we want our own squad to be serious flag material.

 

[Dogsman16]

I know I'm going to be absolutely hated for saying this but Id still trade Dunkley at the right price. Mclean would get back to his best playing as a mid and so would Libba. Smith will take a big step next year also. And we develop mids like no one else. Dunkley isn't irreplaceable. It would also help balance the list, we have too many inside mids and not enough KPP's and X factor types. Even without Dunkley we have a formidable inside mid group.

And by right price I mean for an A grade star. Im not taking about throwing him out the door. If it were to give us the ability to get Jack Darling or a Harry Mckay I think it's the bold move we should do.

 

[dogwatch]

I know I'm going to be absolutely hated for saying this but Id still trade Dunkley at the right price. Mclean would get back to his best playing as a mid and so would Libba. Smith will take a big step next year also. And we develop mids like no one else. Dunkley isn't irreplaceable. It would also help balance the list, we have too many inside mids and not enough KPP's and X factor types. Even without Dunkley we have a formidable inside mid group.

And by right price I mean for an A grade star. Im not taking about throwing him out the door. If it were to give us the ability to get Jack Darling or a Harry Mckay I think it's the bold move we should do.

I'd rather have peak Dunkley than peak McLean if I had to choose ... but would of course prefer peak Mexican.
If pushed I'd trade McLean before Dunks. When was the last time McLean was BoG for us? Dunks has done it a few times in his last 20 games. We are also just one Libba ACL rupture away from lacking midfield grunt.
I don't see McLean as X-factor at all, just a slightly more skilful version of Dahlhaus - but a bit more outside than Dahl was.

 

[Boyd oh Boyd]

BoB, I'd rather if that is the case [excess of one type], that we pursue the talent that are keeping those players out, and let the other club/s then promote the marginal player/s to fill the gap we create. We cannot afford to just keep filling our list with players who are 'not quite good enough elsewhere', if we want our own squad to be serious flag material.

Depends on what we're willing to spend. The fringe blokes cost a third or fourth rounder, the ones keeping them out can go as high as a first. Not to mention that as soon as these guys go on the market other clubs put up their hand, and not many players choose the dogs over a big Vic side. I think we might see this with Papely at the end of the year.

Ideally there's a healthy mixture of both. We haven't been able to land a big player but clubs like Essendon have been too successful at that and haven't been able to get the high draft picks they desperately need to fix their list. If we do go for the better player it'll be because we offer them a contract no other club will go near. It's why I'm so surprised to see people baulk at the hypothetical Darling offer. Do we want a good player or not, because that's what we'll need to offer to get anyone to even consider coming to us, just like the saints had to do with Hannebery.

I know I'm going to be absolutely hated for saying this but Id still trade Dunkley at the right price. Mclean would get back to his best playing as a mid and so would Libba. Smith will take a big step next year also. And we develop mids like no one else. Dunkley isn't irreplaceable. It would also help balance the list, we have too many inside mids and not enough KPP's and X factor types. Even without Dunkley we have a formidable inside mid group.

And by right price I mean for an A grade star. Im not taking about throwing him out the door. If it were to give us the ability to get Jack Darling or a Harry Mckay I think it's the bold move we should do.

I agree for the exact same reasons, except instead of Dunkley I want to trade McLean. Rate Dunks a lot higher. Libba has another 5 years of his best footy but we might not even be pushing for finals for another 2 or 3 years. We'll need the contested ball winner more than we need McLean's class. Wouldn't be surprised if McLean is looking elsewhere anyway. Reminding me a lot of Dahlhaus last year, just looks like he's not enjoying footy. Although in this case it's because he wants to be a mid and can't force his way through, Dahl just got sick of the club.

 

[Dogsman16]

I'd rather have peak Dunkley than peak McLean if I had to choose ... but would of course prefer peak Mexican.
If pushed I'd trade McLean before Dunks. When was the last time McLean was BoG for us? Dunks has done it a few times in his last 20 games. We are also just one Libba ACL rupture away from lacking midfield grunt.
I don't see McLean as X-factor at all, just a slightly more skilful version of Dahlhaus - but a bit more outside than Dahl was.

Dunkley is being played in position. Mclean isn't. Dunkley stuggles just as much as Mclean when he is played almost exclusively forward.

I agree I think Dunkley's output as a mid is better than McLean. Mclean is a better user and quicker but he's not the volume ball winner Dunkley is, nor is he the strong big bodied.
But one of my criticism of our midfield is we are one-paced. Macrae and Libba are slow so is Dunkley and Bont is average pace at best. Smith has good acceleration and Mclean has good agility but our one paced mids are too many. We need a better balance.

Mclean wouldn't fetch us a great offer and nor would he be high on the target list being in contract for another 3 seasons. Dunkley would net us a far greater return. Dunkley would help us significantly in terms of trade value to land an A grade star forward. Mclean wouldn't.

Buy low sell high. Mclean's currency is at an all time low. Dunkley's has never been higher.
Finding big bodied mids who can win contested ball but dispose of the ball poorly is arguably the easiest role to fill in the AFL. Dunkley is quite simply replaceable and we would get a great trade deal from him.

As I said before Im not throwing him out the door. I just don't think we should overpay him at all, in fact id slightly undercut his worth and see if a club is willing to throw 800k at him. Clubs like GC and St Kilda might just do that. Probably add Carlton, North Melbourne to the list as well. I could name a whole stack of clubs who would want to bolster their midfield and have the picks/players to make a good trade.

 

[Dog 36]

Whilst it is important we get the right player personnel to fix our issues especially up forward I have no confidence that we have the right personnel in the forward coaches etc to make decisions on whom to attract in order to achieve the forward structure required.

Sometimes astute recruiting, functioning lines and good structures is more effective and important than spending huge dollars on a player or two thinking it will solve all our problems.

I cannot believe how dysfunctional our forward line has been and for how long.

 

[Dogsman16]

Whilst it is important we get the right player personnel to fix our issues especially up forward I have no confidence that we have the right personnel in the forward coaches etc to make decisions on whom to attract in order to achieve the forward structure required.

I cannot believe how dysfunctional our forward line has been and for how long.

Well you can go 2 ways. Build a star studded forward line with several dangerous options (Peak Hawthorn) or go the 2016 dogs route and build a pressure based forward line with defined roles (Cordy & resting ruck - bring ball to ground)(Stringer - Draw the opposition best defender)(Picken, Smith, Dickson - provide stacks of forward pressure and chip in with goals).

Right now we have neither, and with probably the worst forward line on paper in the AFL. One above average target (who draws the best negating defender), No real defensive pressure types and midfield castaways.

You can understand why Naughton was pushed forward. Like what else do we have? A couple of players who can occasionally chip in with 2 - 3 goals. We don't even have a run down speedy type who forces the opposition to panic.

I think the forward coach can be blamed to a degree, but the players he has up there is the worst in the AFL. Even Gold Coasts forward line on paper is better than ours.

 

[Dog 36]

Well you can go 2 ways. Build a star studded forward line with several dangerous options (Peak Hawthorn) or go the 2016 dogs route and build a pressure based forward line with defined roles (Cordy & resting ruck - bring ball to ground)(Stringer - Draw the opposition best defender)(Picken, Smith, Dickson - provide stacks of forward pressure and chip in with goals).

Right now we have neither, and with probably the worst forward line on paper in the AFL. One above average target (who draws the best negating defender), No real defensive pressure types and midfield castaways.

You can understand why Naughton was pushed forward. Like what else do we have? A couple of players who can occasionally chip in with 2 - 3 goals. We don't even have a run down speedy type who forces the opposition to panic.

I think the forward coach can be blamed to a degree, but the players he has up there is the worst in the AFL. Even Gold Coasts forward line on paper is better than ours.

Agree with what a lot of what you say.

Reg Hawthorn are they a star studded forward line because of the players or the system they have and players know their role?

 

[Dogsman16]

Agree with what a lot of what you say.

Reg Hawthorn are they a star studded forward line because of the players or the system they have and players know their role?

In terms of when they were at there peak (Franklin, Gunston, Roughead, Rioli, Puopolo, mid/resting ruck)?

I think they all knew their defined roles but the players up there all gelled incredibly well. The perfect blend of Aerial presence, Athleticism, defensive pressure, quality disposal. Im not sure how many of these traits can be coached. If anything the list manager needs to take most of the credit for identifying players through trade and draft and what role they could play. All of Franklin, Roughead, Rioli and Gunston were legit A graders and then Puopolo had a distinct role.

The list management of our forward line has been abysmal. It didn't help that all of (Boyd, Picken, Dickson, Smith, Redpath, Stringer) offer almost zero post 2016 due to injury and other factors. But the rejuvenation of our forward stocks has been quite frankly insipid.

Who makes up our next forward line for a finals tilt? Naughton is it. No-one else.

 

[Dog 36]

In terms of when they were at there peak (Franklin, Gunston, Roughead, Rioli, Puopolo, mid/resting ruck)?

I think they all knew their defined roles but the players up there all gelled incredibly well. The perfect blend of Aerial presence, Athleticism, defensive pressure, quality disposal. Im not sure how many of these traits can be coached. If anything the list manager needs to take most of the credit for identifying players through trade and draft and what role they could play. All of Franklin, Roughead, Rioli and Gunston were legit A graders and then Puopolo had a distinct role.

The list management of our forward line has been abysmal. It didn't help that all of (Boyd, Picken, Dickson, Smith, Redpath, Stringer) offer almost zero post 2016 due to injury and other factors. But the rejuvenation of our forward stocks has been quite frankly insipid.

Who makes up our next forward line for a finals tilt? Naughton is it. No-one else.

Again agree with you.

Interestingly Franklin who was a real star of their forward line left in 2013 and the Hawks went on to win the 14 and 15 flags I think.

Shows when system and attributes come together what can happen.

Not convinced our club has an idea on either

 

[Dogsman16]

Again agree with you.

Interestingly Franklin who was a real star of their forward line left in 2013 and the Hawks went on to win the 14 and 15 flags I think.

Shows when system and attributes come together what can happen.

Not convinced our club has an idea on either

What Hawthorn lost in Franklin they patched up in other areas. Their leaders across the ground are so good they could compensate. Guys like McEvoy, Issac Smith etc lifted there output. I could name a bunch of others.

Moving into the future I think the biggest question in regards to who do we target is actually looking at the development of Tim English and what is his defined role.

Is he the number one ruck or is he a key forward/2nd ruck. For the next 12 weeks id like him to fill the latter role so that trengrove moves into the ruck (which he is better at) but before anything a decision has to be made as to his mid to long term role.

Right now I see him as an invaluable Key forward/2nd ruck option. Subsequently a Charlie Curnow/Jack Darling type would be the ideal result.

If we see English as the main ruck then Harry Mckay/Ben Brown type would be the one.

FWIW I can see English/Naughton/(Darling/Curnow) fitting into the same forward line.

 

[Braybrook Son]

Does anyone else wish we could just fast-forward the season and get to trade week already? Really hoping we can have a trade week similar to Richmond's in 2017 where they brought in Prestia, Nankervis and Caddy who were just the right pieces to complete their team. Don't have to be A-graders, just three experienced, above average players in positions of need and we would be flying. A tall forward, a tall back and an x-factor type small forward and we would be unbeatable.

Not really, because we stuff most of them up!

 

[Braybrook Son]

Not much, Tom Papley, Ben Ronke types (Rookie small forwards) are ten a penny there are plenty of them and they
don't attract high draft picks, (JDO) JUST DRAFT ONE.

Lachlan Murphy, Tyson Stengle, Shane McAdam, Eddie Betts, Charlie Cameron, Allen Christensen, Lewis Taylor,
Alex Fasolo, Cameron Polson, Kym LeBois, Josh Daicos, Jamie Elliott, Orazio Fantasia, Brayden Ham,
Irving Mosquito, Travis Coyler, Brandon Matera, Lachie Schultz, Sam Switowski, Michael Walters, Stefan Giro,
Lachie Fogarty, Gryan Miers, Quinton Narkle, Brandon Parfitt, Jake Tarca, Jermaine Jones, Ben Ainsworth,
DARCY MACPHERSON, Izak Rankine, Jacob Heron, Brent Daniels, Ian Hill, Zac Langdon, Luke Breust,
Paul Puopolo, Chad Wingard, Toby Bedford, Jeff Garlett, Jy Simpkin, Kayne Turner, Sam Gray, Robbie Gray,
Steven Motlop, Boyd Woodcock, Shai Bolton, Dan Butler, Jason Castagna, Jack Higgins, Daniel Rioli,
Liam Baker, Jade Gresham, Dean Kent, Ben Long, Jack Lonie, Robbie Young, Jarrod Cameron, Jamie Cripps,
Willie Rioli, Liam Ryan,

Plenty of the rookie/high pick variety and some low picks even a highlighted former father/son pick we
let slip in our wisdom, also some low numbers as well. Plenty of choices all around Australia in every
corner of the country. I did not include Ben Cavarra or Sam Lloyd or Rhylee West just to show we
already have at least three in the wings. Apologies if I missed any.

There are plenty of them? Then why don’t we have any then???

 

[Yojimbo]

There are plenty of them? Then why don’t we have any then???

Maybe we have, we just have to get over the obsession with filling gaps with quasi mids.
Sam Lloyd, Ben Cavarra, Rhylee West or one of our small rebounders with the same skill set. Plenty, we have plenty.

 

[Mantis Toboggan]

There are plenty of them? Then why don’t we have any then???

It’s disappointing that Mclean can’t play that role for us. He is good below his knees, can take a hanger, pretty quick and has a brain on him. I’d like to see him as a proper small forward working off Naughton.

A tall forward is definitely more of a priority than a small.

 

[Braybrook Son]

It’s disappointing that Mclean can’t play that role for us. He is good below his knees, can take a hanger, pretty quick and has a brain on him. I’d like to see him as a proper small forward working off Naughton.

A tall forward is definitely more of a priority than a small.

I like Mclean but he has to put on about 8 kilos! What does he weigh? About 65?

 

[dogwatch]

...

The list management of our forward line has been abysmal. It didn't help that all of (Boyd, Picken, Dickson, Smith, Redpath, Stringer) offer almost zero post 2016 due to injury and other factors. But the rejuvenation of our forward stocks has been quite frankly insipid.

...

Wait. Stop right there.

So we've lost our entire forward line in the space of 1 or 2 years, mostly to injury induced retirement. You could probably add Crameri to the list of departed forwards from our 2016 list too, even though he was under suspension that year. But he was shot after his year off and didn't do much at Geelong.

Surely we can't expect the forward line to be performing smoothly and efficiently so soon?

We saw the issue unfolding. We went hard after Wingard but he decided to go elsewhere and we ended up with Schache, our second or third choice who was a #2 draft pick as a KPF, so surely worth a not too costly punt (and he's not yet a definitive failure BTW, though a few have clearly written him off).

We have recruited Greene who looks like a promising natural forward but he's been injured all of 2019.

We recruited a successful VFL small forward ready to play senior footy in Cavarra but he too has been injured all year.

We also recruited Lloyd, a fringe forward from Richmond who has managed to stay sound and is our equal leading goal kicker.

We rookied Gowers and he won our leading goalkicker award in 2018 (admittedly not a vintage year for goals).

As all the intended options have fallen by the wayside we even used our MSD pick on another KPP in Gardner.

It's not like we've been totally idle these last two years. I agree there have been faults in our recruiting but it's a bit tough to put it down to"abysmal list management" and "insipid rejuvenation of our forward stocks" when the old forward line has disintegrated in just over a year. It's not like you can just pick up a 50-goal forward at the local supermarket.

I think we can more legitimately criticise earlier decisions (pre-2017) made in non-recruitment and development of forwards but we've at least had a crack at getting some forwards into the club in the last two trade/draft periods, albeit with limited success. Some targets have been classy types, some have been just handy B or C graders. We've had some damnable luck with injuries along the way.

At least some credit can be given in earlier recruiting in that we went for a very underdeveloped KPF in Lewis Young ... and then what do we do? We make him a defender! I still can't figure out why he isn't tried more up forward in our current circumstances, even if it's just as a foil to Naughton.

I agree our forward line is pretty woeful right now but I think we need a bit of perspective on how that's happened after it was looking pretty healthy less than three years ago. I think it's too early to stamp the last two years of list management as abysmal given all that's happened. However I'll be disappointed if we don't go hard again for some genuine forwards in the coming off-season.

 

[dogwatch]

I like Mclean but he has to put on about 8 kilos! What does he weigh? About 65?

He's listed as 180cm and 79kg. Sounds about right.

 

[Dog 36]

Wait. Stop right there.

So we've lost our entire forward line in the space of 1 or 2 years, mostly to injury induced retirement. You could probably add Crameri to the list of departed forwards from our 2016 list too, even though he was under suspension that year. But he was shot after his year off and didn't do much at Geelong.

Surely we can't expect the forward line to be performing smoothly and efficiently so soon?

We saw the issue unfolding. We went hard after Wingard but he decided to go elsewhere and we ended up with Schache, our second or third choice who was a #2 draft pick as a KPF, so surely worth a not too costly punt (and he's not yet a definitive failure BTW, though a few have clearly written him off).

We have recruited Greene who looks like a promising natural forward but he's been injured all of 2019.

We recruited a successful VFL small forward ready to play senior footy in Cavarra but he too has been injured all year.

We also recruited Lloyd, a fringe forward from Richmond who has managed to stay sound and is our equal leading goal kicker.

We rookied Gowers and he won our leading goalkicker award in 2018 (admittedly not a vintage year for goals).

As all the intended options have fallen by the wayside we even used our MSD pick on another KPP in Gardner.

It's not like we've been totally idle these last two years. I agree there have been faults in our recruiting but it's a bit tough to put it down to"abysmal list management" and "insipid rejuvenation of our forward stocks" when the old forward line has disintegrated in just over a year. It's not like you can just pick up a 50-goal forward at the local supermarket.

I think we can more legitimately criticise earlier decisions (pre-2017) made in non-recruitment and development of forwards but we've at least had a crack at getting some forwards into the club in the last two trade/draft periods, albeit with limited success. Some targets have been classy types, some have been just handy B or C graders. We've had some damnable luck with injuries along the way.

At least some credit can be given in earlier recruiting in that we went for a very underdeveloped KPF in Lewis Young ... and then what do we do? We make him a defender! I still can't figure out why he isn't tried more up forward in our current circumstances, even if it's just as a foil to Naughton.

I agree our forward line is pretty woeful right now but I think we need a bit of perspective on how that's happened after it was looking pretty healthy less than three years ago. I think it's too early to stamp the last two years of list management as abysmal given all that's happened. However I'll be disappointed if we don't go hard again for some genuine forwards in the coming off-season.

Reg L.Young it’s worse than what you stated he was recruited as a forward and now not only are we trying to develop him into a defender we are playing him in the ruck in the seconds.

Confusion reigns

 

[Braybrook Son]

Have you seen his arms?

 

[Whoyagot]

McLean is not fast at all

He’s crafty but he lacks that tough defensive edge you need to play that small forward role

 

[FoochPackage]

We banked on boyd, redpath & stringer to be our fwds for years to come. s**t luck with two of them and stringer just went off the rails. We have been highly unlucky when you add clay smith to that scenario.

Weve had to re jig on the run when with A bit of luck we would have a stable and dynamic fwd setup.

It'll turn soon fellas.

 

[dergert]

We banked on boyd, redpath & stringer to be our fwds for years to come. **** luck with two of them and stringer just went off the rails. We have been highly unlucky when you add clay smith to that scenario.

Weve had to re jig on the run when with A bit of luck we would have a stable and dynamic fwd setup.

It'll turn soon fellas.

I really hope so mate.

If we were able to convert we would be one of the highest scoring sides in the competition. Infuriating.