Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

Northernsoul74

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Jun 19, 2016
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josh the gent

The Pieman
Sep 25, 2008
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It’s disappoint
I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days now. Why exactly do we want to land an indigenous star? Is it simply to lure others? Or to change the perception of the club? I think both are morally questionable.
Isn’t it because they are simply GOOD AVAILABLE PLAYERS that we thought would add to our list quality?

Some people look at a picture and say it’s too white, some say it’s too black - how about if it’s just a nice picture?

No need to make it about anything else.
 

Virgin Dog

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Oct 29, 2017
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Much as I hate to think it, the way Carlton finished the year, with the young talent they have they should be 7-12 next year without those guys.

Cripps, Walsh, SPS, Fisher, Gow, Murphy, ECurnow, Docherty, Plowman, OBrien, Setterfield through the mids and McKay, CCurnow, McGovern, Jones, Weitering, Casboullt through the spine is not shabby.

With good trades, can definitely be finals contenders. Sadly.
The multitude of early picks has to culminate into something. If they don't start pushing for finals soon, something is seriously wrong. Can't have that much talent on a list and not perform. Getting Doc back, brining in Martin and potentially Viney, and having the fresh start with the new coach, should mean that 9 wins is the bare minimum they're aiming for
 

DognBones

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There seems to be a lot of guilty without presentation of evidence in this thread related to our (club and supporters) 'treatment' of indigenous players. It appears that mythology has somehow become fact. Perhaps one of our very few indigenous players may have had a bad experience whilst with the club but this does not establish a pattern of behaviour to tarnish our attraction as a destination club. Nor does it suggest that we are any different to any other organisation when it comes to incidences of racism. Having followed our club for many decades my experience is that, from over the fence at least, we are amongst the most tolerant and least aggressive supporters in the comp.
I think the true reason we fail to attract indigenous players is that, historically we just haven't had the support structures to assist them when, from their point of view, teams like Hawthorn, Geelong and Carlton clearly do.
In short, I don't think we should beat ourselves up about this issue, we have good people in the club who have the right intent and the break through will occur in good time.
 

bobs head soup

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Sep 14, 2015
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Yeah nah wrong

Sorry I know Liam and he left for one reason and one reason only, Macca.

And I can’t speak for Magic and Josh Hill but I think you are talking out your butt with this one sorry I have never heard Mag speak of leaving the dogs due to racism and I’ve sat in several of his multicultural youth talks.

Like every other label it’s incredibly easy to throw out there but unfortunately we have had several indigenous players over the last 20-30 years and the biggest issue is they have mainly been sh!t on field so most haven’t had a choice to leave.
Can't agree.

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single indigenous player who has played 40 games for the club and finished his career here, yet I can think of a number who left and played successfully for many seasons elsewhere (MxLean, Hill, Harrbow, Jones).

Those who haven't been successful here may simply have not been good enough, but in many cases I suspect it was largely because they weren't settled and therefore couldn't get the best out of themselves.

If that happens repeatedly it is something the club should look to address.

Indigenous players make up 11% of AFL lists and we are horribly underrepresented, probably the worst record of any club.

This is a cycle that needs to be broken because whilst indigenous players suspect our club is an environment in which they won't get the best out of themselves, we are behind the eight ball in securing a significant proportion of the best talent we can.

To reduce that to "the biggest issue is they have been mainly s**t on field so most haven't had a choice to leave" is , in my opinion, pretty poor
 

Mattdougie

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Jun 29, 2013
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Can't agree.

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single indigenous player who has played 40 games for the club and finished his career here, yet I can think of a number who left and played successfully for many seasons elsewhere (MxLean, Hill, Harrbow, Jones).

Those who haven't been successful here may simply have not been good enough, but in many cases I suspect it was largely because they weren't settled and therefore couldn't get the best out of themselves.

If that happens repeatedly it is something the club should look to address.

Indigenous players make up 11% of AFL lists and we are horribly underrepresented, probably the worst record of any club.

This is a cycle that needs to be broken because whilst indigenous players suspect our club is an environment in which they won't get the best out of themselves, we are behind the eight ball in securing a significant proportion of the best talent we can.

To reduce that to "the biggest issue is they have been mainly s**t on field so most haven't had a choice to leave" is , in my opinion, pretty poor
Mag left to be closer to his family up North

Hill left coz he was s**t for us and was playing VFL

Liam left due to the coach

Harbrow went for money

I’m not making excuses but these blokes didn’t leave for racist reasons as some suggested.

And perhaps we should discuss West, Stack, Skinner, Djekura, Faulkner, Koops and Lynch. How did their post dogs careers go?

I won’t argue we have a near non existent history with indigenous players but the names named did not leave due to the kaka spoken above. What indigenous players think of our club I cannot comment for but Liam has never told me he felt our supporters were racist as a whole. But that is probably a bad example because I can guarantee oh a lot of AFL fans still don’t know he has indigenous heritage
 
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mambavino

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With respect to targeting Indigenous players for trade, I actually think it's a combination of reasons. Firstly, we want to build a solid structure before the NGA boys come in as Mofra suggests, which is just a player welfare issue we want to have sorted in advance. But we also hope that the side effect of that is that the perception of the club changes among the indigenous football community and more of the best indigenous players will see us as a top destination in the future.

Whether that current poor perception is earned or not, or even exists at all, is kind of moot.

Of course when looking at indigenous options to trade in, all this should be appropriately balanced against the required skill sets for the team in the here and now. We shouldn't just be throwing cash at a player because they have the right skin colour. But I have more faith in and respect for those at the club than to actually think we would do that.
 

footscray1973

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Mag left to be closer to his family up North

Hill left coz he was s**t for us and was playing VFL

Liam left due to the coach

Harbrow went for money

I’m not making excuses but these blokes didn’t leave for racist reasons as some suggested.

And perhaps we should discuss West, Stack, Skinner, Djekura, Faulkner, Koops and Lynch. How did their post dogs careers go?

I won’t argue we have a near non existent history with indigenous players but the names named did not leave due to the kaka spoken above. What indigenous players think of our club I cannot comment for but Liam has never told me he felt our supporters were racist as a whole. But that is probably a bad example because I can guarantee oh a lot of AFL fans still don’t know he has indigenous heritage
Can’t believe I’m writing this but I agree with both this and your earlier post! 😀 (well except for the Magic bit - he wanted to stay in 91, but the club lowballed him on a contract extension, so he moved to the Bears, but that’s irrelevant to this discussion). Also Jones was popular with team mates and fans that engaged with him. He is a great young fella, who put a lot into the club socially, and was fantastic to chat to as a fan. I never heard one of our fans (and I attended virtually all of Magic’s 95 games for us and most of Jones and Hill’s) ever make a racial comment towards them. I heard Jones and Hill cop it due to their ability, but never with a racial undertone. (I did once hear one of ours make a slur about Stack at Etihad, but he was quickly shot down by other supporters). Magic was also a great bloke, saw him at the shops one day with his young child, late 80s, said “gday Magic, go Dogs”, and he smiled and said “goodonya mate”.

Regardless of the bigger issue of attracting and retaining indigenous players, I would like something more than a throwaway line on this forum as proof that:
1. Jones, Hill or McLean were racially abused by our fans
2. Left because of their discomfort at how they fitted as an indigenous player at our club.
 

Northernsoul74

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Jun 19, 2016
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List management discussion of our list.
Interesting chat around trading next year’s first along with some of this year’s picks to try and get another first rounder.
 

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Mofra

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Can't agree.

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single indigenous player who has played 40 games for the club and finished his career here, yet I can think of a number who left and played successfully for many seasons elsewhere (MxLean, Hill, Harrbow, Jones).
B-Mac went very personal with Jones, what he said to him in private and in front of others was a disgrace. Straight from Jone's player manager. I would have jumped ship too. It was 100% on B-Mac.
 

TheBont

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I don’t get why we get so torn up about getting aboriginal players

If they want to come then come. How about recruit some coming out of the draft?
 

True Dog

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I don’t get why we get so torn up about getting aboriginal players

If they want to come then come. How about recruit some coming out of the draft?
How would you feel if next years indigenous boys want to leave at the first opportunity? It’s a problem that needs to be fixed and I for one am glad we’re trying too..
 

Guido

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Have heard from a very good source who I will not name that our club is not favourably viewed by indigenous players.

I wonder if we have skeleton in our cupboard that we fans do not know about?
I'm glad your source deems himself fit to speak on behalf/relay the thoughts of the entire indigenous playing community.

Does he wants to make himself the official spokesperson? Just like I'm sure all ethnic groups would like an unelected official spokesperson of <insert background nationality here> in Australia would like someone to speak on our behalf, and represent our views completely, on all matters, without our blessing.

Sorry for the sarcasm mate, but this is becoming ridiculous. Kobe Stevens and Joel Hamling came here and performed quite well, and Joel still speaks of us highly.

Can we do better to make the club more inviting to sections of the Australian community, probably. But for someone to speak of all indigenous players as a singular group with a singular view on our club is asinine.
 

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