Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Testekill]

I get what you are saying and its hard to know exactly what happened - but yeah if the coaches think his training standards haven't been good enough all year they shouldn't wait until the end of the year to mention it.

And who's to say that Wingard is stretching the truth about being asked to pull his finger out? Stringer acted like we hadn't asked him to work harder in 2017 which seems extremely at odds with how we were dropping him to the VFL.

 

[Dogs Rule]

While I agree, how old is Libba ???

I get the feeling Libba has been told numerous times. Whether it sinks in, who knows?

As for Wingard, I'd been nervous if I was the Hawks.

 

[TedDougChris]

I get the feeling Libba has been told numerous times. Whether it sinks in, who knows?

As for Wingard, I'd been nervous if I was the Hawks.

Agree. Just highlighting that all clubs will have the odd player that occasionally needs a reminder to pull their finger out....

 

[Maverick Dog]

Brad Johnson predicts Hawthorn to finish 14th-15th in 2019.

The Hawks list still has topend talent but have no depth. If Scully cannot get on the park and O’meara has an injury impacted season the cliff could hit next year and Johno will nail it again. Their draw is going to be a lot harder also.

Our list is in far better shape and I would not be surprised if we finish higher. The draft is very important. We need to find at least one small fast small fwd who fits our need.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

And who's to say that Wingard is stretching the truth about being asked to pull his finger out? Stringer acted like we hadn't asked him to work harder in 2017 which seems extremely at odds with how we were dropping him to the VFL.

Yeah Wingard could be totally misrepresenting it, that's why my original post said - if that is what occurred.

 

[Northernsoul74]

As mentioned; he's 25. If you've been in a professional system for 7 years then you shouldn't have to be told to work harder and to pull your finger out.

He does seem pretty immature for a 25 year old.

 

[hoianbulldog]

Even if you could find a loophole.That would be demeaning and psychological damaging.A player like Gowers whom has fought so hard.Absolute ridiculous suggestion unless its a perennial injured player.

I wasn't suggesting anything. I was asking a question re rookie eligibility. It has been pointed out by Sharke the the rules changed this year which i wasnt aware of.

 

[fronkalicious]

Plus i think theyre first pick in the draft is somewhere in the 50s. These moves will come back to bite them.

I said before the FA/trade period that they were staring down the barrell of a decade in the footy wilderness. I'm certain of it now.

Couldn’t disagree more. Think about this.

In 2016, when we beat them in the semi, we were soooooo much younger and on the up. Fast forward 2 years, and they just finished top 4 and added Wingard and Scully, while we field a bunch of kids that can only compete to half time.

Draft picks are nothing more than a commodity to add talent to your list.

The hawks are the best club in the competition.

 

[ringa5]

I wasn't suggesting anything. I was asking a question re rookie eligibility. It has been pointed out by Sharke the the rules changed this year which i wasnt aware of.

l was agreeing with you quoting the post before.

 

[LittleG]

Couldn’t disagree more. Think about this.

In 2016, when we beat them in the semi, we were soooooo much younger and on the up. Fast forward 2 years, and they just finished top 4 and added Wingard and Scully, while we field a bunch of kids that can only compete to half time.

Draft picks are nothing more than a commodity to add talent to your list.

The hawks are the best club in the competition.

Early draft picks are a commodity to be used to get proven players in the key positions (midfield, ruck, KPF, KPD).

Late picks are where you find the utilities to play the non-key roles.


I don't think the Hawks are doing it as well as they could. BUT they are the best at it around.

 

[MrChristo]

Couldn’t disagree more. Think about this.

In 2016, when we beat them in the semi, we were soooooo much younger and on the up. Fast forward 2 years, and they just finished top 4 and added Wingard and Scully, while we field a bunch of kids that can only compete to half time.

Draft picks are nothing more than a commodity to add talent to your list.

The hawks are the best club in the competition.

And yet they haven't won a final since 2015.

I won't go so far as to imply old, tired legs...

...but looking at this year, how many "good" wins do you see?
Beaten by North. Beaten by Brisbane in Tassie.
They had a pretty soft draw and took advantage... To a degree...

They're definitely in the same bracket as Geelong for me, a team of whom the question has been asked; Is it OK to make finals every year with no realistic chance of winning?

Edit: OK, so people will have a field day with the last sentence but you know what I mean.

Edit 2: Let's have a look at the recent trades anyway...
2014: Frawley, good need at the time, but time's up.
O'Rouke. Nope.
2015: Zip.
2016: Mitchell (for pick 14ish. Very good.
JOM for pick 10 and a second rounder. Questionable. Definitely overpaid.
Vickery, nope.)
2017: Impey. OK, but clearly hamstrung by losing a 2nd round pick.
Lost a young, quick Brad Hill.

Wingard this year looks a good get, but question marks. (and gave up pick 15 also a highly rated early draft pick in Burton).
Scully could be ok, may just as easily be a bust. Zero cost of course, but chasing their tail by needing someone to replace Hill...
Scrimshaw? I have no idea...

I simply don't see the "genius" here...

 

[Mofra]

Couldn’t disagree more. Think about this.

In 2016, when we beat them in the semi, we were soooooo much younger and on the up. Fast forward 2 years, and they just finished top 4 and added Wingard and Scully, while we field a bunch of kids that can only compete to half time.

Draft picks are nothing more than a commodity to add talent to your list.

The hawks are the best club in the competition.

Hawks have 9 players over 30 on their list.
How often is Burgoyne going to be able drag them over the line for the close ones in 2019? He sure as s**t isn't doing it in 2020. Roughy is one of my favourite non-Bulldogs but he's getting closer and closer to Redpath's "I have one good trick it's a bloody good one but I've got nothing else" level.

They had one gun kid on their list and he's just been shoved off to Port. Scully went from a future first rounder to a future 4th rounder in the space of one medical and GWS didn't even blink. Yes his salary freed up Shiel and perhaps Scrimshaw can play the tallish flanker role Burton did but has any Gold Coast player underperformed there and flourished elsewhere? The ex Suns that were good at the Suns (Dixon, Prestia) are good at their new clubs. The guys like Nicholls or Trent McKenzie are... still playing the same (sub) standard of footy there were playing up north.

I'd take our list over the Hawks. No team with our age profile has played as well as we did last year (17 of the 20 youngest sides named were Bulldogs teams in 2018 ) and yes I think next year our inexperienced will show but we won a flag and will have effectively added 6 first round picks in the following three years (if you include Schache and Rhylee West).
I think one main issue is in the ruck and we have a solution there, he's just raw as hell.

The other is forwards and Schache has shown enough to suggest you can build a forwardline with him.

 

[bobby2]

And yet they haven't won a final since 2015.

I won't go so far as to imply old, tired legs...

...but looking at this year, how many "good" wins do you see?
Beaten by North. Beaten by Brisbane in Tassie.
They had a pretty soft draw and took advantage... To a degree...

They're definitely in the same bracket as Geelong for me, a team of whom the question has been asked; Is it OK to make finals every year with no realistic chance of winning?

Edit: OK, so people will have a field day with the last sentence but you know what I mean.

Edit 2: Let's have a look at the recent trades anyway...
2014: Frawley, good need at the time, but time's up.
O'Rouke. Nope.
2015: Zip.
2016: Mitchell (for pick 14ish. Very good.
JOM for pick 10 and a second rounder. Questionable. Definitely overpaid.
Vickery, nope.)
2017: Impey. OK, but clearly hamstrung by losing a 2nd round pick.
Lost a young, quick Brad Hill.

Wingard this year looks a good get, but question marks. (and gave up pick 15).
Scully could be ok, may just as easily be a bust. Zero cost of course, but chasing their tail by needing someone to replace Hill...
Scrimshaw? I have no idea...

I simply don't see the "genius" here...

It's hard to see the genius when you hide it in two words describing the Mitchell trade, then go on to write multiple sentences about unknowns at this stage (Wingard and Scully).

They've traded in a bloke for pick 14, and in two seasons he's played one excellent season and then won a brownlow the next year. That in itself is a bigger win than most clubs have in a decade of trading and drafting.

The Hawthorn/Geelong/Sydney falling off a cliff line is becoming quite tired. It's the old "better to be young than be good" argument resurfacing. Those pushing the idea were convinced the hawks wouldn't make finals this year, yet they finished 3rd- quite clearly in the finals. Perhaps they will fall off a cliff one day, and you'll all claim to be right, but it's a bit like claiming that essendon were due for a loss every single week in 2000. You would've been right for one week, but wrong every other week.

This is really just a case of judging a team against their past performance. Melbourne are doing amazingly because they make a prelim. Hawthorn are flopping because they go out one week earlier.

 

[MrChristo]

Hiding??

Unknowns are unknowns. I'll write less about them in hindsight...

Yes, Mitchell was a very, very good result. Superb.
Point stands, has he (or indeed the sum total) done then any good?...
...having failed to win a final, I'd suggest not.
You may disagree.

(fwiw, Melbourne are being ridiculously over-rated by various people, imo. Again, look at their draw/wins this year...)

 

[MrChristo]

And, I certainly don't think it's "better to be young than good."

I do think it's better to be young, developing and already pretty good than trying to patch holes by giving away more in assets than you receive.
(although, of course that will be better judged in hindsight also.)

 

[bobby2]

Hiding??

Unknowns are unknowns. I'll write less about them in hindsight...

Yes, Mitchell was a very, very good result. Superb.
Point stands, has he (or indeed the sum total) done then any good?...
...having failed to win a final, I'd suggest not.
You may disagree.

(fwiw, Melbourne are being ridiculously over-rated by various people, imo. Again, look at their draw/wins this year...)

We can certainly agree on Melbourne.

The same approach clearly worked for them extremely well up until 2015. While they haven't won a final since, I think they would've been much worse without the players they've brought in since 2015. The net cost of Mitchell, JOM, Vickery and Impey was less than what those players are collectively worth to them IMO (largely thanks to Mitchell being so incredibly good). Therefore, at this stage, on available evidence, I would call it an effective strategy.

I don't think simply measuring performance in finals over a few carefully selected years is a good way to rate a recruiting system. A lot of other things also influence performance. Similarly, I'd call Naughton a great recruit, despite us not playing finals this year. I'm sure you'd agree that an argument that he hasn't done us any good yet in terms of finals would be foolish.

 

[TMoney22]

Rocks in your head if you thinks will fall off cliff. They have every opportunity to keep up in the top 8.

 

[ossie_21]

They won’t fall off a cliff just yet, but finishing top 4 means they are going to get a tough draw & maybe we will see some other teams go past them next season

 

[ManOfClay]

I'm munted in Amsterdam and everyone but us is bad

 

[Munnez]

They won’t fall off a cliff just yet, but finishing top 4 means they are going to get a tough draw & maybe we will see some other teams go past them next season

Hawks have 9 players 30+ It's an accepted concept that you begin to decline after 30 Burgoyne is 35 as good as he has been can't go on much longer. Of the core of their once all conquering side.
A number have since left or a close to being done i.e Roughy They have made some good additions which may keep them in contention for the 8 but realistically no threat to take the main prize.
So I suppose it comes down are you content to make finals or do you want to be a chance to contend for the Flag
I just don't see Hawks current recruitment policy getting them there anytime soon but that is just imo Maybe I will be proven wrong we will see what happens going forward

 

[BEaston]

Hawks on the mediocre treadmill now. May make finals but won't do any damage for the foreseeable future IMO.

 

[murphy2bedabest]

Sorry lads I’ve some how landed in the Hawks trade tread, good job on landing wingard, all the best for 2019.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

While I agree, how old is Libba ???

Outside of 2017 (I think we can all acknowledge that everyone kinda lost the plot that year) there’s never been an issue with Liber “not wanting it” like Wingard seems to.

I’d actually say they’re the exact opposite... all the talk is Chad doesn’t have much to do with his team mates outside of the indigenous boys, that he just wants the “fame” that comes with football and he doesn’t train hard.

Tom is the exact opposite. Ask any draftee who is the bloke who takes them under their wing, ask any player who trains the hardest at the club, who wants to just go under the radar and be a footballer not a celebrity..

Tom gets a bad wrap from blokes who just believe what the media wants them to believe. Outside of 2017 he’s had a few slip ups but no one has ever questioned his work ethic.

This isn’t directed to you, but more the people who just seem to label him as something he’s not. A bloke like Wingard wouldn’t fight the odds and play all of September with his foot held together by *n fishing line like Tom did...

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Too many old players close to retirement at Hawthorn, they can’t keep replacing them with quality due to the lack of opportunities to get like for like, and draft picks/salary cap squeeze.

There initial brilliant list was from the super draft and then adding some key players, with the final piece being Lake. They are going to have to bite the bullet, and rebuild much sooner than later.

Go onto the Geelong board and they are already saying that trading has not done them any good, even with getting the best player in the competition they have still steadily slipped down the ladder each year.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Outside of 2017 (I think we can all acknowledge that everyone kinda lost the plot that year) there’s never been an issue with Liber “not wanting it” like Wingard seems to.

I’d actually say they’re the exact opposite... all the talk is Chad doesn’t have much to do with his team mates outside of the indigenous boys, that he just wants the “fame” that comes with football and he doesn’t train hard.

Tom is the exact opposite. Ask any draftee who is the bloke who takes them under their wing, ask any player who trains the hardest at the club, who wants to just go under the radar and be a footballer not a celebrity..

Tom gets a bad wrap from blokes who just believe what the media wants them to believe. Outside of 2017 he’s had a few slip ups but no one has ever questioned his work ethic.

This isn’t directed to you, but more the people who just seem to label him as something he’s not. A bloke like Wingard wouldn’t fight the odds and play all of September with his foot held together by ****n fishing line like Tom did...

Was/is a great pal of Trengove