Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[0utsider]

Much as I hate to think it, the way Carlton finished the year, with the young talent they have they should be 7-12 next year without those guys.

Cripps, Walsh, SPS, Fisher, Gow, Murphy, ECurnow, Docherty, Plowman, OBrien, Setterfield through the mids and McKay, CCurnow, McGovern, Jones, Weitering, Casboullt through the spine is not shabby.

With good trades, can definitely be finals contenders. Sadly.

Looks better on paper than it works out in reality. SPS struggles for consistency, Dow has struggled to impact at all, Murphy has aged like a bloke with the weight of the world on his shoulders since the day he arrived at the club, Ed Curnow is a spud, Docherty hasn't played in 2 years, Setterfield hasn't had much impact, C Curnow struggles to get on the park, McGovern lacks commitment etc.

Lots of promise but they're still a fair bit off being able to step up like Brisbane have this year. Martin, Viney and Papley just put them into contention for finals, but we've seen this year that range stretches from around 7-14 on the ladder. That's the range we need to be fighting our way out of this off season.

 

[Mofra]

I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days now. Why exactly do we want to land an indigenous star? Is it simply to lure others? Or to change the perception of the club? I think both are morally questionable.

No.

It's because we're drafting at least three in the next 2 years via our NGA program, and because it's been a factor in us missing out on three indigenous players in the past three years we tried to lure to the club.

We're shooting ourselves in the foot if we are seen as a 'no-go' zone for 10% of the talent currently on AFL lists.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Just so you guys know.

To get behind a paywall use outline.com

Outline.com

outline.com

Above is the herald sun link to the Keath news!

Outline never works for me.

 

[josh the gent]

It’s disappoint

I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days now. Why exactly do we want to land an indigenous star? Is it simply to lure others? Or to change the perception of the club? I think both are morally questionable.

Isn’t it because they are simply GOOD AVAILABLE PLAYERS that we thought would add to our list quality?

Some people look at a picture and say it’s too white, some say it’s too black - how about if it’s just a nice picture?

No need to make it about anything else.

 

[Virgin Dog]

Much as I hate to think it, the way Carlton finished the year, with the young talent they have they should be 7-12 next year without those guys.

Cripps, Walsh, SPS, Fisher, Gow, Murphy, ECurnow, Docherty, Plowman, OBrien, Setterfield through the mids and McKay, CCurnow, McGovern, Jones, Weitering, Casboullt through the spine is not shabby.

With good trades, can definitely be finals contenders. Sadly.

The multitude of early picks has to culminate into something. If they don't start pushing for finals soon, something is seriously wrong. Can't have that much talent on a list and not perform. Getting Doc back, brining in Martin and potentially Viney, and having the fresh start with the new coach, should mean that 9 wins is the bare minimum they're aiming for

 

[DognBones]

There seems to be a lot of guilty without presentation of evidence in this thread related to our (club and supporters) 'treatment' of indigenous players. It appears that mythology has somehow become fact. Perhaps one of our very few indigenous players may have had a bad experience whilst with the club but this does not establish a pattern of behaviour to tarnish our attraction as a destination club. Nor does it suggest that we are any different to any other organisation when it comes to incidences of racism. Having followed our club for many decades my experience is that, from over the fence at least, we are amongst the most tolerant and least aggressive supporters in the comp.
I think the true reason we fail to attract indigenous players is that, historically we just haven't had the support structures to assist them when, from their point of view, teams like Hawthorn, Geelong and Carlton clearly do.
In short, I don't think we should beat ourselves up about this issue, we have good people in the club who have the right intent and the break through will occur in good time.

 

[Mattdougie]

Viney, Betts, Martin, Papley, Butler...don’t know how Carlton get all these deals done.

They will get Betts for a very late pick coz the crows just want his wage off their books for cap space

 

[bobs head soup]

Yeah nah wrong

Sorry I know Liam and he left for one reason and one reason only, Macca.

And I can’t speak for Magic and Josh Hill but I think you are talking out your butt with this one sorry I have never heard Mag speak of leaving the dogs due to racism and I’ve sat in several of his multicultural youth talks.

Like every other label it’s incredibly easy to throw out there but unfortunately we have had several indigenous players over the last 20-30 years and the biggest issue is they have mainly been sh!t on field so most haven’t had a choice to leave.

Can't agree.

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single indigenous player who has played 40 games for the club and finished his career here, yet I can think of a number who left and played successfully for many seasons elsewhere (MxLean, Hill, Harrbow, Jones).

Those who haven't been successful here may simply have not been good enough, but in many cases I suspect it was largely because they weren't settled and therefore couldn't get the best out of themselves.

If that happens repeatedly it is something the club should look to address.

Indigenous players make up 11% of AFL lists and we are horribly underrepresented, probably the worst record of any club.

This is a cycle that needs to be broken because whilst indigenous players suspect our club is an environment in which they won't get the best out of themselves, we are behind the eight ball in securing a significant proportion of the best talent we can.

To reduce that to "the biggest issue is they have been mainly s**t on field so most haven't had a choice to leave" is , in my opinion, pretty poor

 

[Mattdougie]

Can't agree.

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single indigenous player who has played 40 games for the club and finished his career here, yet I can think of a number who left and played successfully for many seasons elsewhere (MxLean, Hill, Harrbow, Jones).

Those who haven't been successful here may simply have not been good enough, but in many cases I suspect it was largely because they weren't settled and therefore couldn't get the best out of themselves.

If that happens repeatedly it is something the club should look to address.

Indigenous players make up 11% of AFL lists and we are horribly underrepresented, probably the worst record of any club.

This is a cycle that needs to be broken because whilst indigenous players suspect our club is an environment in which they won't get the best out of themselves, we are behind the eight ball in securing a significant proportion of the best talent we can.

To reduce that to "the biggest issue is they have been mainly s**t on field so most haven't had a choice to leave" is , in my opinion, pretty poor

Mag left to be closer to his family up North

Hill left coz he was shite for us and was playing VFL

Liam left due to the coach

Harbrow went for money

I’m not making excuses but these blokes didn’t leave for racist reasons as some suggested.

And perhaps we should discuss West, Stack, Skinner, Djekura, Faulkner, Koops and Lynch. How did their post dogs careers go?

I won’t argue we have a near non existent history with indigenous players but the names named did not leave due to the kaka spoken above. What indigenous players think of our club I cannot comment for but Liam has never told me he felt our supporters were racist as a whole. But that is probably a bad example because I can guarantee oh a lot of AFL fans still don’t know he has indigenous heritage

 

[mambavino]

With respect to targeting Indigenous players for trade, I actually think it's a combination of reasons. Firstly, we want to build a solid structure before the NGA boys come in as Mofra suggests, which is just a player welfare issue we want to have sorted in advance. But we also hope that the side effect of that is that the perception of the club changes among the indigenous football community and more of the best indigenous players will see us as a top destination in the future.

Whether that current poor perception is earned or not, or even exists at all, is kind of moot.

Of course when looking at indigenous options to trade in, all this should be appropriately balanced against the required skill sets for the team in the here and now. We shouldn't just be throwing cash at a player because they have the right skin colour. But I have more faith in and respect for those at the club than to actually think we would do that.

 

[In Repair]

Awesome news if the Keath thing is happening. Big fan.

Not dogs related, but Carlton is taking a big swing at jack viney.

Funny that, Mike Sheahan said he wasn't sure Viney would be at Melbourne next year. He dropped that on Lyon and Watson before they wrapped up the breakfast show last week

 

[footscray1973]

Mag left to be closer to his family up North

Hill left coz he was s**t for us and was playing VFL

Liam left due to the coach

Harbrow went for money

I’m not making excuses but these blokes didn’t leave for racist reasons as some suggested.

And perhaps we should discuss West, Stack, Skinner, Djekura, Faulkner, Koops and Lynch. How did their post dogs careers go?

I won’t argue we have a near non existent history with indigenous players but the names named did not leave due to the kaka spoken above. What indigenous players think of our club I cannot comment for but Liam has never told me he felt our supporters were racist as a whole. But that is probably a bad example because I can guarantee oh a lot of AFL fans still don’t know he has indigenous heritage

Can’t believe I’m writing this but I agree with both this and your earlier post! (well except for the Magic bit - he wanted to stay in 91, but the club lowballed him on a contract extension, so he moved to the Bears, but that’s irrelevant to this discussion). Also Jones was popular with team mates and fans that engaged with him. He is a great young fella, who put a lot into the club socially, and was fantastic to chat to as a fan. I never heard one of our fans (and I attended virtually all of Magic’s 95 games for us and most of Jones and Hill’s) ever make a racial comment towards them. I heard Jones and Hill cop it due to their ability, but never with a racial undertone. (I did once hear one of ours make a slur about Stack at Etihad, but he was quickly shot down by other supporters). Magic was also a great bloke, saw him at the shops one day with his young child, late 80s, said “gday Magic, go Dogs”, and he smiled and said “goodonya mate”.

Regardless of the bigger issue of attracting and retaining indigenous players, I would like something more than a throwaway line on this forum as proof that:
1. Jones, Hill or McLean were racially abused by our fans
2. Left because of their discomfort at how they fitted as an indigenous player at our club.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Whooshkaa Shows

player.whooshkaa.com

List management discussion of our list.

Interesting chat around trading next year’s first along with some of this year’s picks to try and get another first rounder.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

How are we not working on getting Papley, especially now that Martin has apparently picked Carlton? Let's throw some of the Martin money in Papley's direction and swoop in ahead of them.

 

[maddog37]

Funny that, Mike Sheahan said he wasn't sure Viney would be at Melbourne next year. He dropped that on Lyon and Watson before they wrapped up the breakfast show last week

I thought he was talking about Todd.

 

[Dogsman16]

How are we not working on getting Papley, especially now that Martin has apparently picked Carlton? Let's throw some of the Martin money in Papley's direction and swoop in ahead of them.

Get Elliott. No picks required.

 

[SayerTheCreator]

How are we not working on getting Papley, especially now that Martin has apparently picked Carlton? Let's throw some of the Martin money in Papley's direction and swoop in ahead of them.

Absolutely. If he is gettable as reported we should be going hard

 

[Mattdougie]

Can’t believe I’m writing this but I agree with both this and your earlier post!

No surprise mate eventually everyone works out in right

 

[Mofra]

Can't agree.

I might be wrong, but I can't think of a single indigenous player who has played 40 games for the club and finished his career here, yet I can think of a number who left and played successfully for many seasons elsewhere (MxLean, Hill, Harrbow, Jones).

B-Mac went very personal with Jones, what he said to him in private and in front of others was a disgrace. Straight from Jone's player manager. I would have jumped ship too. It was 100% on B-Mac.

 

[ossie_21]

You might be willing to roll those dice but not me.View attachment 744520

 

[TheBont]

I don’t get why we get so torn up about getting aboriginal players

If they want to come then come. How about recruit some coming out of the draft?

 

[Northernsoul74]

I don’t get why we get so torn up about getting aboriginal players

If they want to come then come. How about recruit some coming out of the draft?

We are, the concern is retaining them.

 

[True Dog]

I don’t get why we get so torn up about getting aboriginal players

If they want to come then come. How about recruit some coming out of the draft?

How would you feel if next years indigenous boys want to leave at the first opportunity? It’s a problem that needs to be fixed and I for one am glad we’re trying too..

 

[True Dog]

Get Elliott. No picks required.

YES!!!! Slip him to a forward line with Naughts and Bruce and watch defenders panic.... Let’s not F around make him a deal Collingwood can’t match

 

[Guido]

Have heard from a very good source who I will not name that our club is not favourably viewed by indigenous players.

I wonder if we have skeleton in our cupboard that we fans do not know about?

I'm glad your source deems himself fit to speak on behalf/relay the thoughts of the entire indigenous playing community.

Does he wants to make himself the official spokesperson? Just like I'm sure all ethnic groups would like an unelected official spokesperson of <insert background nationality here> in Australia would like someone to speak on our behalf, and represent our views completely, on all matters, without our blessing.

Sorry for the sarcasm mate, but this is becoming ridiculous. Kobe Stevens and Joel Hamling came here and performed quite well, and Joel still speaks of us highly.

Can we do better to make the club more inviting to sections of the Australian community, probably. But for someone to speak of all indigenous players as a singular group with a singular view on our club is asinine.