Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 4 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

Remove this Banner Ad

Status
Not open for further replies.

Munnez

Premiership Player
Apr 2, 2018
3,389
3,834
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
If the Eagles delist Brander would he be worth a look as a KPD option 6'4" mobile.
Has enough size shouldn't get massacred in 1 vs 1. With his mobility could see him slotting into our team defence.
And as a DFA would be a free hit think that he has been a player hurt by lack of opportunity . Has been behind some quality KPD at the Eagles, he wouldn't be a star but think he could be a solid citizen and good depth at worst
 

perro_loco

Club Legend
Apr 10, 2016
2,489
3,559
Western Suburbs
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Boca Juniors
I can’t believe that people are annoyed that we did not try for Ceglar, Lynch etc.

Ladhams was the one, but question marks on his attitude and not wanting to part with any draft collateral knocked this on the head.

We pick up OBrien and Darcy in the draft and a best available ruck option through the rookie draft and we are well placed.

Sweet will get his chance as no 1 ruckman, Keath and Gardiner as the tall defenders and OBrien keeps Wood and Cordy out to start with.

JUH and Schache fight it out for the 3rd tall forward role while Bruce is out.

Might need to find a new role forward for Crozier and some further improvement from West, Garcia and Richards.

Now we need a couple of complimentary assistant coaches and no reason not to be optimistic for 2022.
Too right. Those rucks are cooked. The thing people need to understand is that Bevo wants a style of ruck who is versatile. That is fast, mobile and can play both back and forward. In short, a new kind of player. One that covers a lot of ground. something like a Bontempelli or petraca but doing ruck work. very hard to find, but that is the next type of player that will emerge.
 

Golden_6

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 15, 2014
10,166
20,870
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls
If the Eagles delist Brander would he be worth a look as a KPD option 6'4" mobile.
Has enough size shouldn't get massacred in 1 vs 1. With his mobility could see him slotting into our team defence.
And as a DFA would be a free hit think that he has been a player hurt by lack of opportunity . Has been behind some quality KPD at the Eagles, he wouldn't be a star but think he could be a solid citizen and good depth at worst
He’s not a KPD in the slightest.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Our ruck situation is only "threadbare" insofar that we didn't consider English a ruck to start last season and we might consider him a ruck to start next season.

As I've posted a million times, I think the issue lies with the expectations of Schache and JUH starting 2022 in our best 22 when they're not guaranteed to be any good, than English in an of himself.
 

doggiesin08

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 17, 2007
7,286
3,497
australia
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Bushrangers
Callum Twomey reckons clubs are eyeing off our first pick for points in exchange. The benefit to us is that the points left over from Darcy will be a pick in the late 30s / early 40s instead of a pick at the end of the draft.

Say our pick 23 to Sydney in exchange for 31 and 39. Gives us an extra 237 points. Sydney move up to pick 23.
We don’t need more points in this draft though. I think all that trade achieves is to preserve our picks in the 40s/50s. I’d much rather live flip #23 into just enough points to cover the Darcy bid and receive the excess in 2022 picks. We can the easily trade that extra 2022 pick to get back into there 2nd or 3rd round this year.

the points system is so flawed.
Agree. Happy to be corrected but from memory the points value system was designed around the expected games played by pick and naturally smoothed out. The problem is this doesn’t capture (i) the expected quality of those games and (ii) wasn’t adjusted for the continued improvement in the recruiting caper.

Accordingly the relative values are all wrong which is evidenced by the repeated ability to extract 30-50% points premiums when downgrading picks. It’s ridiculous that teams (we have been the recent beneficiary) then get the extra 20% discount. I think the AFL has to either (i) scrap the discount entirely and say that it is effectively delivered via the dodgy “exchange rate” or (ii) commit to periodically updating the index to reflect the implied rates from previous years trades which only involvepicks.
 
Sep 27, 2005
14,524
21,756
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray
Could also be a deal for 23 with...

Cats 32 and 34 gives us an extra 311 points.

Eagles 29 and 35 gives us an extra 360 points.

Richmond 28 and 38 gives us an extra 327 points.

Sydney 31 and 39 gives us an extra 237 points.

Trust in Sammy. A deal can / will be done.

Remember when trades and the draft were simple?

'We'll swap this player for that player or that player for a draft pick'

Then on draft day or night you would get your selections and pick a bunch of new players and it was done. Simple and uncomplicated.

I'll be honest, the last three or four years of trades, free agents and drafts with the points and the downgrades and upgrades and weird complicated s*** that goes on has done my head in.
 
Last edited:
Sep 27, 2005
14,524
21,756
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Footscray
What's the evidence that it does lead to a problem? Do we lose clearances more than other teams? Are other teams somehow more efficient in scoring from clearance wins than the league average against us?

Just imagine if we had even a semi decent ruckman on the park for 22 games? We'll never know what difference it could make because it'll never happen (apologies to Martin, he won't be playing anywhere near 22 games. English is just OK a second ruck and jury is well and truly out on Sweet).
 
If you're still banging on about rucks, you need to build a bridge and get over it, girlfriend. It's over now. Dry your eyes. Open your hearts and your minds to the English/Sweet combo.
 

SweatOnMySkin

Senior List
Oct 26, 2020
214
475
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I mean Grundy had 37 against Graham, Big O had 33. You can’t just completely write off Sweets game (31ho) because he was up against him, it was his debut game of AFL football after all and he only played 64% game time
you've missed the point that that one game swings his average hugely due top him playing such a small number of games. it would be largely irrelevant in a 22 game season, but the reaility is he's never made 20 hitouts against another ruck
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Proffessor

Club Legend
Jan 21, 2013
1,439
1,910
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
There are some major psychological impact considerations to list changes that a lot of posters seem to overlook when discussing bringing additional players in.
For every action there will be a reaction.

Hypothetically if we had done what so many posters have been calling for and some how miraculously traded in an A grade ruckman with plenty of gas left in the metaphorical tank without giving up a lot and not blowing the salary cap. What would be the likely impact on the existing rucks and the list in general of such an event?

Sweet would probably start desperately looking for the nearest exit to save his fledgling AFL career.
English would likely start planning to head back to WA asap, and in the meantime have to switch his focus to being mainly a key forward.
Martin, if he stayed on the list would likely just go through the motions waiting/hoping for injury opportunities before retirement at the end of the season if not earlier.

English's adjusted focus would then likely have detrimental implications for guys like Marra, Schache, Bruce (late in the season) and any other non-entrenched player trying to squeeze into or stay in our forward line.

So next year our existing Rucks would all likely be trying to leave and need to be replaced to assist the mid career person we hypothetically got in this trade period. Marra might also be looking for an early exit come seasons end.

To be worth risking such an outcome, this hypothetical player would want to be very bloody good and the sort of player you want to build around. Such players are very hard to find and don't tend to come cheap either.

The other more realistic option would have been to try to bring in a very short term mature player close to the end of his career, basically a like for like replacement for Stef Martin. However any player at that stage is a gamble fitness wise, plus they may not fit in well with the rest of the list.

Stef Martin is a known quantity, he obviously fitted in well with the playing group this year and still suits our needs.

In spite of all the protests, keeping our existing ruck division moving forward was a reasonable and relatively low risk list management strategy compared to any of the potential alternatives I saw being floated during the trade period.
 
Nov 29, 2018
1,793
3,213
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Memphis Grizzlies
I want a ruck but I'm not worried about missing out on who was on the market this year. Rewatching parts of the GF last night Martin does fine in the ruck. Gawn easily wins the hitouts but Martin is a constant physical presence so the taps are mostly neutral. English actually wins more hitouts than Martin when he goes into the ruck. In that last minute of the third where Melbourne kick 3 goals out of the middle English wins all three taps, and I reckon at least two are to advantage. It's stuff like this why I just don't rate the ruck position, it doesn't matter who wins it or where it goes. The best midfield will win the clearances in a game 9/10 times regardless of the ruck.

Ruck's are obviously useful but the tapwork itself isn't that important. As long as they can influence the game in another way it's fine.
 
Nov 23, 2015
9,987
27,316
#17
AFL Club
Richmond
Hi guys great trade period with accumulating points - well done

Just wanted to run an idea past to see if you guys thought it as a good deal for both Tigers/Doggies

Doggies out : #23
Doggies In : #38 + Richmond F2 (roughly 28-30 range)

Richmond In : #23
Richmond out :#38 + 2022 2nd rounder

Would leave the doggies with 38 , 43 , 44 , 45 , 52 = 1798 points Darcy Bid #3 roughly 1785 points after discount 20% Basically meets perfectly
This then allows the Doggies the option of keeping Richmonds 2022 2nd rounder or on trading after matching Darcy bid to another team like Brisbane or maybe North for 42 +47 which will come in around 5-7 spots so could end up 37 & 40
 

The Inbetweener

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 25, 2011
7,820
11,408
Footscray
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Hi guys great trade period with accumulating points - well done

Just wanted to run an idea past to see if you guys thought it as a good deal for both Tigers/Doggies

Doggies out : #23
Doggies In : #38 + Richmond F2 (roughly 28-30 range)

Richmond In : #23
Richmond out :#38 + 2022 2nd rounder

Would leave the doggies with 38 , 43 , 44 , 45 , 52 = 1798 points Darcy Bid #3 roughly 1785 points after discount 20% Basically meets perfectly
This then allows the Doggies the option of keeping Richmonds 2022 2nd rounder or on trading after matching Darcy bid to another team like Brisbane or maybe North for 42 +47 which will come in around 5-7 spots so could end up 37 & 40
I’d certainly be looking at something like that, issue is there is good mail GWS will bid on Darcy pick 2.

Perhaps it could be a trade on draft night if Darcy slips past pick 2.
 

HK_Bulldog

Club Legend
Oct 6, 2001
1,321
1,022
NSW
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I wonder if some recruiting managers have good relationships and would help another as long as it doesn’t hurt their own club. Eg, would JMac tell Power if he is going to bid at 2?
 
I want a ruck but I'm not worried about missing out on who was on the market this year. Rewatching parts of the GF last night Martin does fine in the ruck. Gawn easily wins the hitouts but Martin is a constant physical presence so the taps are mostly neutral. English actually wins more hitouts than Martin when he goes into the ruck. In that last minute of the third where Melbourne kick 3 goals out of the middle English wins all three taps, and I reckon at least two are to advantage. It's stuff like this why I just don't rate the ruck position, it doesn't matter who wins it or where it goes. The best midfield will win the clearances in a game 9/10 times regardless of the ruck.

Ruck's are obviously useful but the tapwork itself isn't that important. As long as they can influence the game in another way it's fine.
Agreed. It has been proven they have the least impact on the outcome of a game.

Our (non-ruck) mids got destroyed. End of story.
 
We easily could have hooked our 2022 second rounder as bait to land a serviceable ruck - but doesn’t appear that we even tried…
Max Lynch went for pocket change, basically a down grounded future 3rd. We could have boosted a vulnerable area of the ground for even less capital. It seems an extraordinary risk to take a threadbare ruck division into 2022 for a team smack bang in their window.
 
I wonder if some recruiting managers have good relationships and would help another as long as it doesn’t hurt their own club. Eg, would JMac tell Power if he is going to bid at 2?
We did have good relationships with WCE and Adelaide a few years ago - had a few pick swap deals that benefited both clubs.
Reading between the lines it sounds like we've had a lot of dialogue with Richmond to work on pick swaps from the start of trade period (they were initially linked to our pick 17) and our pick 23 may still be in play subject to list spots.
 

doggy_dog

Club Legend
Aug 25, 2020
1,029
2,256
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Hi guys great trade period with accumulating points - well done

Just wanted to run an idea past to see if you guys thought it as a good deal for both Tigers/Doggies

Doggies out : #23
Doggies In : #38 + Richmond F2 (roughly 28-30 range)

Richmond In : #23
Richmond out :#38 + 2022 2nd rounder

Would leave the doggies with 38 , 43 , 44 , 45 , 52 = 1798 points Darcy Bid #3 roughly 1785 points after discount 20% Basically meets perfectly
This then allows the Doggies the option of keeping Richmonds 2022 2nd rounder or on trading after matching Darcy bid to another team like Brisbane or maybe North for 42 +47 which will come in around 5-7 spots so could end up 37 & 40
I reckon we’ll do something like this on draft night once the bid lands. We’ll have a few scenarios in mind and deals lined up going into the night
 

TBOW

Premiership Player
Aug 9, 2012
3,191
3,860
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Hi guys great trade period with accumulating points - well done

Just wanted to run an idea past to see if you guys thought it as a good deal for both Tigers/Doggies

Doggies out : #23
Doggies In : #38 + Richmond F2 (roughly 28-30 range)

Richmond In : #23
Richmond out :#38 + 2022 2nd rounder

Would leave the doggies with 38 , 43 , 44 , 45 , 52 = 1798 points Darcy Bid #3 roughly 1785 points after discount 20% Basically meets perfectly
This then allows the Doggies the option of keeping Richmonds 2022 2nd rounder or on trading after matching Darcy bid to another team like Brisbane or maybe North for 42 +47 which will come in around 5-7 spots so could end up 37 & 40
I agree that we will try to do something similar, but our best option might be to work with GWS.
We could trade 23 for their future second and pick 53 with an agreement not to bid on Darcy.
That would guarantee us the points to match after the picks shuffle up following the 2 bid matches.
 
Looking at the Western Bulldogs Senior List (web site) a lot of the players have grown an inch or two
Cordy was 193 for years now 195 - must have the long stops on ;)
Based on rate of height increase to age, instead of being only 175cm, I should be a giant 200cm+ by now. Damn it, I wish I was measured by the guys that list the Bulldogs players' statistics.😉
 
Last edited:
May 27, 2002
2,653
2,165
Torquay
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Bulldogs
What's the evidence that it does lead to a problem? Do we lose clearances more than other teams? Are other teams somehow more efficient in scoring from clearance wins than the league average against us?
Imagine how good our team with be with a greater hit outs to advantage. We have fantastic group of onballers and the Bont. Lets hope the ruck situation doesn't stop then from getting a premiership.
Bevo has shown faith in Sweet and English, let hope they can both improve, Sweet fitness and English aggression. I would have let Martin go and went for Landhams hard even if we went into point deficient. Our window is now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Remove this Banner Ad

Back