Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 8 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[_Mike_]

Opposition supporters coming to troll , you have been warned

 

[Northernsoul74]

The deal would be done, It’ll be one of those ones that the AFL want as part of their deadline show tomorrow night.

I don’t think anyone is tuning in to find out if Buku gets to Carlton.

 

[Foxman98]

We’re going to add one. If the asking price for Butts was the first rounder this year, in a poor draft, were nuts for declining.

You guys can keep saying this but it doesn't make it true

Are Carlton nuts for not giving up a first for Buku who will fill their Curnow void?

He is just a meh player which is fine and will help but not worth losing access to top end talent for

 

[doggy_dog]

I just feel like we’re letting perfect become the enemy of good. IMO Butts would have made us meaningfully better. Reckon we could have tried harder

 

[Mofra]

I wouldn't be surprised if we do a medical with Ryan Burton

3

Ryan Burton

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.5

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

277.3

4star

D

16.8

4star

K

12.3

5star

HB

4.5

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

2star

MG

277.3

4star

D

13.4

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

4.4

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.2

4star

and/or give him a spot as a train-on player. Has talent, just couldn't get his body right the past couple of years.

 

[Foxman98]

I just feel like we’re letting perfect become the enemy of good. IMO Butts would have made us meaningfully better. Reckon we could have tried harder

We did they wanted a first,

1 of Lindsay/Greeves/Farrow/Dovaston/Taylor will be there for our pick 10 + years of them is better then 5 of Butts

 

[JTCWBFC]

We did they wanted a first,

1 of Lindsay/Greeves/Farrow/Dovaston/Taylor will be there for our pick 10 + years of them is better then 5 of Butts

They also may not make the grade

 

[BulldogMuscle]

I'm with Mojo and Norm.

Please elaborate, even if to a small degree, so we have some idea what you're on about.

Apologies, I was planning to reply quicker like I generally do, most of you know I don't vauge post. Generally I can waste my day away on BF as work is dead slow but just after I posted I actually had to deal with people, shocking.

cleveland is on the money.

We're doing nothing. The bigger problem is, we barely made any enquires outside of JSOS / Wilkie to any other potential defender or their management, we put all our eggs in the JSOS / Wilkie basket. We've had some very shallow talks with Adelaide / Butts (who is open to a move if it gives him more oppitunity) but as reported by media, nothing has or will come of it.
No questions asked of players like Vlastuin, SDK, Weitering etc.

As some posters have pointed out ''you can't make KPD's appear out of thin air'' - Yes - But when you rattle the tree, see nothing pop out and give up, are you really doing your job?
Unless something falls into our lap (very unlikely).
Out: Buku, JUH
In: Budarick, and some consulation picks

 

[Westerndog11]

Ok. But We're going in circles now.



I had virtually no awareness of him until his name kept popping up on this board. I trust your judgement and hope you're right. He was clearly earmarked early and fits into our strategy of targeting a mid range type and if played as a defender he fills a need and should come across at a reasonable price.

Has that been determined yet?



Think of the final minutes theatre of it all.

And the football world waits with bated breath for the announcement that Buku Khamis has netted us am upgrade on a third round draft selection. And then the Western Suburbs erupts with a collective...meh.



Reports at the time were that the Saints offer trumped what the Dogs and Pies had on the table by in excess of $250k.

Understood that. The theory I was trying to convey, was that if we had contributed an extra $50,000 to our offer, JSOS would’ve accepted our offer, over the Saints significantly higher offer.

 

[Foxman98]

They also may not make the grade

Butts hasn't really made the grade either he is a solid footballer but wasn't a walk up when fit

 

[BulldogMuscle]

We’re going to add one. If the asking price for Butts was the first rounder this year, in a poor draft, were nuts for declining.

I would seriously be considering picking up the phone and asking if Liam Jones wants to do a year as a player-coach at this point in time.

 

[JTCWBFC]

Apologies, I was planning to reply quicker like I generally do, most of you know I don't vauge post. Generally I can waste my day away on BF as work is dead slow but just after I posted I actually had to deal with people, shocking.

cleveland is on the money.

We're doing nothing. The bigger problem is, we barely made any enquires outside of JSOS / Wilkie to any other potential defender or their management, we put all our eggs in the JSOS / Wilkie basket. We've had some very shallow talks with Adelaide / Butts (who is open to a move if it gives him more oppitunity) but as reported by media, nothing has or will come of it.
No questions asked of players like Vlastuin, SDK, Weitering etc.

As some posters have pointed out ''you can't make KPD's appear out of thin air'' - Yes - But when you rattle the tree, see nothing pop out and give up, are you really doing your job?
Unless something falls into our lap (very unlikely).
Out: Buku, JUH
In: Budarick, and some consulation picks

Pretty negligent if that’s the scope of it

 

[W W Biscuit]

I remember well into the season that we were apparently courting a forward from Melbourne, which triggered the whole Bailey Fritsch commentary. That seems to have died in the backside. Was that more jumping at shadows?

 

[Ash1337]

I'm for sure thinking Tigers will trade 4 & 38 for 10 & 11 and 38 goes dogs for Buku or swans 32.

 

[MrChristo]

No offence meant to you Dogs Rule, but this has surely been done to death.

The Western Bulldogs and "Gun defenders" aren't both in a vacuum.

We can't just formulate a list and expect one of them to join.
There are so many other forces in play.
Who's to say we haven't enquired about 5 or 6 gun defenders over the last 12-18 months but have been flat out told No?

And at what point does a Plan C, D, E, F, G, ... become no better than what we have anyway?

As others have said before, Plan 'x' (if we didn't land the specific players we wanted) is to back and develop our own.

You might not agree with that, but advocating we now quickly grab May or Frost [not saying that is necessary your opinion] is neither the answer, nor any kind of long term Plan.

I just think that posters who are essentially insinuating that the Club have gotten to a dead end without even noticing (let alone trying to do something about it) are being a bit irrational (driven by frustration no doubt).

If they don't make us better they aren't coming. It's been a consistent message.
That is the Plan.

People's idea of who may or may not make us better will vary...
...just like opinions on draft night.

And sure, recruiters and CEOs get it wrong occasionally, but this idea that we're an unprofessional rabble and we're too busy admiring our own vision to attempt to improve is a bit on the nose to me.

AND... (very sorry for quoting myself)...

...I should have added that most of the [shall we call them] 'negative' posts are based on this assertion that we've never tried to land an A grade defender.

We know that is 100% not true.

Sure, we can all debate and postulate about how much extra we could have done to get Barrass, we can all speculate over how serious we were in chasing SoSoS...
...but there's clear evidence that we know it's a need.

Not only do we know it's a need, so do 17 other teams. None of whom are (I assume) keen to, a) let a rare key component go themselves; & b) in particular to a Club who 'desperately' needs one.

Anyway, I understand of course, that there is a wide and varied amount of emotional attachment in these parts (and that's a good thing)...
...but I have real trouble believing that the entire Wester Bulldogs organisation, from the CEO to the list manager to the coach to the players all want to win a Premiership less than me.
(And therefore aren't doing everything in their Powers () to do so).

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Think the plot is being lost a little bit here.

Key defenders are certainly a weakness but it's just one weakness among many. It's not as if lacking a good key defender was that much more important than lacking a defensive oriented small defender (which we have solved with Budarick), or the weakness of McNeil/Vandermeer as best 22 players as vague medium-small forward 6 centre bounce players, whatever the role is after the centre bounce (which we don't need to address this trade week as Hynes/Dolan should cement themselves as best 22 footballers this year).

I also think that people are overrating the idea that any player whatsoever, even ones that are not best 22 or otherwise play for bad teams, will be an improvement. I'm naturally sceptical of people talking up players like Tylar Young, who played for a bad team. Yes he is one player among 22, but ideally you want to recruit from teams better than you, because broadly speaking the players not getting a game for good teams tend to be better players than for weak teams (duh). Same with Butts - he's never proven himself as a cemented best 22 footballer over several years for Adelaide, and there's also doubts about how good he will be when he recovers.

Compare all of this to Ryan Gardner, considering him as a footballer objectively - Gardner has been a cemented, best 22 footballer in the past, finishing in the top 10 of best and fairests, and has had excellent VFL form this year. I'm not entirely convinced that if you had swapped Tylar Young and Ryan Gardner's positions this year that you wouldn't have had Young being a good VFL player every week for us but a player nobody wants to pick, and Gardner getting a game every week in a bottom 4 team, for example.

And I don't think we have to play three key defenders, most teams play two, the only reason we've had to play 3 is because all of our small-medium defenders are offensively-oriended, so we've needed to go to a weaker tall player to actually have some defensive mentality. But if Cleary improves as a best 22 footballer (which he gradually did over the course of the season, getting dropped then getting picked again) and we replace Johannisen in our best 22 with Budarick, all it takes is another medium defensive-oriented smaller player to come in and we have good balance with only two key defenders.

I suppose the main criticism is that we didn't do the Wilkie targeting across numerous players, swinging for the fences - even a contracted player that appears cemented, what would happen if we shook the branches and see what pops out? Maybe we did and were told to jog on. Anyway.

 

[who_let_the_dogs_out]

So was yesterday's Toby Pink info a pisstake?

 

[Foxman98]

Think the plot is being lost a little bit here.

Key defenders are certainly a weakness but it's just one weakness among many. It's not as if lacking a good key defender was that much more important than lacking a defensive oriented small defender (which we have solved with Budarick), or the weakness of McNeil/Vandermeer as best 22 players as vague medium-small forward 6 centre bounce players, whatever the role is after the centre bounce (which we don't need to address this trade week as Hynes/Dolan should cement themselves as best 22 footballers this year).

I also think that people are overrating the idea that any player whatsoever, even ones that are not best 22 or otherwise play for bad teams, will be an improvement. I'm naturally sceptical of people talking up players like Tylar Young, who played for a bad team. Yes he is one player among 22, but ideally you want to recruit from teams better than you, because broadly speaking the players not getting a game for good teams tend to be better players than for weak teams (duh). Same with Butts - he's never proven himself as a cemented best 22 footballer over several years for Adelaide, and there's also doubts about how good he will be when he recovers.

Compare all of this to Ryan Gardner, considering him as a footballer objectively - Gardner has been a cemented, best 22 footballer in the past, finishing in the top 10 of best and fairests, and has had excellent VFL form this year. I'm not entirely convinced that if you had swapped Tylar Young and Ryan Gardner's positions this year that you wouldn't have had Young being a good VFL player every week for us but a player nobody wants to pick, and Gardner getting a game every week in a bottom 4 team, for example.

And I don't think we have to play three key defenders, most teams play two, the only reason we've had to play 3 is because all of our small-medium defenders are offensively-oriended, so we've needed to go to a weaker tall player to actually have some defensive mentality. But if Cleary improves as a best 22 footballer (which he gradually did over the course of the season, getting dropped then getting picked again) and we replace Johannisen in our best 22 with Budarick, all it takes is another medium defensive-oriented smaller player to come in and we have good balance with only two key defenders.

I suppose the main criticism is that we didn't do the Wilkie targeting across numerous players, swinging for the fences - even a contracted player that appears cemented, what would happen if we shook the branches and see what pops out? Maybe we did and were told to jog on. Anyway.

Very much agree,

If Cleary/Sellwood/Jaques can all kick on we have that midsized player locked down and can shift our set up and be more flexible

 

[Dogsfan1]

So was yesterday's Toby Pink info a pisstake?

Of course

 

[TheSportingEyes]

4th best at stopping teams moving the ball from d50 to f50. 9th best at stopping teams moving the ball from d50 to scoring. System is fine but when we need our defenders to defend they haven't been good enough especially against the best teams. Lobb, JOD, Buss will not be the answer in 2026 and all of them are 2s or 3s not the big key back we need. Won't do much next year if the key back room stays this way.

 

[JohnnySteel]

Today has been dead on the trade front. It’s as if clubs have been told to hold off for deadline….

 

[who_let_the_dogs_out]

Of course

Nothing would surprise me.

 

[cleveland]

Of course

I thought marra was staying at dogs pal?

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Apologies, I was planning to reply quicker like I generally do, most of you know I don't vauge post. Generally I can waste my day away on BF as work is dead slow but just after I posted I actually had to deal with people, shocking.

cleveland is on the money.

We're doing nothing. The bigger problem is, we barely made any enquires outside of JSOS / Wilkie to any other potential defender or their management, we put all our eggs in the JSOS / Wilkie basket. We've had some very shallow talks with Adelaide / Butts (who is open to a move if it gives him more oppitunity) but as reported by media, nothing has or will come of it.
No questions asked of players like Vlastuin, SDK, Weitering etc.

As some posters have pointed out ''you can't make KPD's appear out of thin air'' - Yes - But when you rattle the tree, see nothing pop out and give up, are you really doing your job?
Unless something falls into our lap (very unlikely).
Out: Buku, JUH
In: Budarick, and some consulation picks

Given they operate in the real world. This seems a perfectly reasonable take from the clubs point of view to me.

Understood that. The theory I was trying to convey, was that if we had contributed an extra $50,000 to our offer, JSOS would’ve accepted our offer, over the Saints significantly higher offer.

Im not sure how. You'd have to assume that he and his father were acting in good faith during initial negotiations between him, our club and the club that his father is the list manager of.

Thats a chasm of logic that not even Evel Knievel and his Skycycle could get over.

 

[Dogsfan1]

Nothing would surprise me.

I can tell you 100 percent toby pink is not coming here lol

 

[Ash1337]

Today has been dead on the trade front. It’s as if clubs have been told to hold off for deadline….

I think the JUH 1 will get done today atleast.