Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 8 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[_Mike_]

Opposition supporters coming to troll , you have been warned

 

[Chalky White]

Brisbane won a flag and are losing Starsevich and Ah Chee.

They aren't losing them because they are a rubbish club, the are going becuase of external factors.

You are missing the point. What are they picking up?

 

[redmania]

How do we have 0 ambition?

Did we not go for Wilkie? Were we not the front runner for JSos before St Kilda put in a ridiculous offer? Did we not target depth like Erasmus before Freo decided to start playing him again and up his offer?

You act as if there is anything we can do besides go stupid with money like St Kilda is doing reality is if players want to go home to vic and don’t want limelight they go to Geelong if they want to go to vic and play big games Collingwood or Richmond we are left fighting over the scraps and only way to win 9/10 is to over pay and ruin the team like St Kilda have just done

We draft exceptionally well and can top up with targeted players like we did with Buderick and will do with Butts once he is a FA

I don’t disagree that we’ve asked the question on a few players — but that’s not the same as actually executing a strategy.

Going after Wilkie, SOS Jnr, Erasmus etc. is fine in theory… but missing out over and over again isn’t bad luck, it’s a pattern. And patterns come from approach.

A few points you’re overlooking:

1. “We tried” isn’t ambition — landing talent is

Every club in the comp “asks the question.” The successful ones close the deal. Collingwood missed on Grundy and got McStay/Hill/Lipinski. Brisbane missed on plenty and still got Neale, Dunkley, McKenna, Ah Chee. Geelong asked about everyone and still landed Cameron, Stengle, Bowes, Holmes, Bruhn.

We've had two off-seasons in a row where the net result has been:

Out – quality.
In – fringe.

That’s not bad luck, that’s failure to convert.

2. “We can’t compete with big clubs” is a cop-out

If our pitch is no longer cutting through compared to Geelong/Richmond/Collingwood, that’s on list management and culture, not geography.

You don’t win flags by stockpiling cap space.

3. Drafting well is great — but it’s not a trade strategy

Yes, we draft well. No one disputes that. But drafting well isn’t a get-out-of-jail free card for inactivity.

Every premiership winner in the last decade:

Drafted well AND Traded aggressively to fill structural holes.

We’re doing half of that equation and acting surprised when we stagnate.

4. “We’ll just wait for Butts/Buderick/free agency” is exactly the problem

Other clubs get better now. We keep talking about getting better eventually. That’s why Brisbane, Geelong, GWS and Collingwood keep passing us — they don’t wait for perfect timing.

No one is asking the club to throw $2M at Ashcroft or Daicos. The frustration comes from this idea that:

“We’re trying, but what can you do?”

That’s not ambition. That’s self-preservation dressed up as strategy.

Until we stop celebrating “almosts” and start landing actual best-22 players, nothing changes — and that’s all people are calling out.

 

[Foxman98]

Kennedy B Grade
Lobb B
Harmes C
Baker D
Bramble C
Treloar B+
Poulter D

JSos you rate as B despite never coming top 10 in a Bnf in his life yet Treloar is a B+ despite multiple AA squads

 

[Chalky White]

JSos is not a B grader he played 10 decent games as a Back pocket and got 5 years at 900k despite his age and injury history would’ve been the dumbest list management move ever to top it

We pivoted to Kennedy after missing Peatling who had a much better season

Hawthorn had a heap of cap space and play in front of larger crowds at the G most weeks

Geelong aren’t doing that now and have pulled out of 2 trades

You are right I was being kinfd to JSOS, maybe because i think his Mum is hot.
I'm pointing out our lack of aggression/ambition to get players into our organization.

 

[Foxman98]

I don’t disagree that we’ve asked the question on a few players — but that’s not the same as actually executing a strategy.

Going after Wilkie, SOS Jnr, Erasmus etc. is fine in theory… but missing out over and over again isn’t bad luck, it’s a pattern. And patterns come from approach.

A few points you’re overlooking:

1. “We tried” isn’t ambition — landing talent is

Every club in the comp “asks the question.” The successful ones close the deal. Collingwood missed on Grundy and got McStay/Hill/Lipinski. Brisbane missed on plenty and still got Neale, Dunkley, McKenna, Ah Chee. Geelong asked about everyone and still landed Cameron, Stengle, Bowes, Holmes, Bruhn.

We've had two off-seasons in a row where the net result has been:

Out – quality.
In – fringe.

That’s not bad luck, that’s failure to convert.

2. “We can’t compete with big clubs” is a cop-out

If our pitch is no longer cutting through compared to Geelong/Richmond/Collingwood, that’s on list management and culture, not geography.

You don’t win flags by stockpiling cap space.

3. Drafting well is great — but it’s not a trade strategy

Yes, we draft well. No one disputes that. But drafting well isn’t a get-out-of-jail free card for inactivity.

Every premiership winner in the last decade:

Drafted well AND Traded aggressively to fill structural holes.

We’re doing half of that equation and acting surprised when we stagnate.

4. “We’ll just wait for Butts/Buderick/free agency” is exactly the problem

Other clubs get better now. We keep talking about getting better eventually. That’s why Brisbane, Geelong, GWS and Collingwood keep passing us — they don’t wait for perfect timing.

No one is asking the club to throw $2M at Ashcroft or Daicos. The frustration comes from this idea that:

“We’re trying, but what can you do?”

That’s not ambition. That’s self-preservation dressed up as strategy.

Until we stop celebrating “almosts” and start landing actual best-22 players, nothing changes — and that’s all people are calling out.

How’s facts a cop out? It’s the same reason North/St Kilda hell even Carlton/Essendon now can’t pull anyone decent

what’s our Point of Difference that gets us over anyone else in Victoria? Crowds no, lifestyle no facilities maybe now blockbuster games no

 

[Thunderoad]

You are missing the point. What are they picking up?

They are getting Oscar Allen who has serious question marks on his ability to have an impact and Sam Draper who is a like for replacement for the retiring Oscar McInerney.

Do you think Allen and Draper seriously improve Brisbane's list?

 

[Foxman98]

They are getting Oscar Allen who has serious question marks on his ability to have an impact and Sam Draper who is a like for replacement for the retiring Oscar McInerney.

Do you think Allen and Draper seriously improve Brisbane's list?

Allen maybe Draper is 100% no given his injury history

 

[Thunderoad]

I don’t disagree that we’ve asked the question on a few players — but that’s not the same as actually executing a strategy.

Going after Wilkie, SOS Jnr, Erasmus etc. is fine in theory… but missing out over and over again isn’t bad luck, it’s a pattern. And patterns come from approach.

A few points you’re overlooking:

1. “We tried” isn’t ambition — landing talent is

Every club in the comp “asks the question.” The successful ones close the deal. Collingwood missed on Grundy and got McStay/Hill/Lipinski. Brisbane missed on plenty and still got Neale, Dunkley, McKenna, Ah Chee. Geelong asked about everyone and still landed Cameron, Stengle, Bowes, Holmes, Bruhn.

We've had two off-seasons in a row where the net result has been:

Out – quality.
In – fringe.

That’s not bad luck, that’s failure to convert.

2. “We can’t compete with big clubs” is a cop-out

If our pitch is no longer cutting through compared to Geelong/Richmond/Collingwood, that’s on list management and culture, not geography.

You don’t win flags by stockpiling cap space.

3. Drafting well is great — but it’s not a trade strategy

Yes, we draft well. No one disputes that. But drafting well isn’t a get-out-of-jail free card for inactivity.

Every premiership winner in the last decade:

Drafted well AND Traded aggressively to fill structural holes.

We’re doing half of that equation and acting surprised when we stagnate.

4. “We’ll just wait for Butts/Buderick/free agency” is exactly the problem

Other clubs get better now. We keep talking about getting better eventually. That’s why Brisbane, Geelong, GWS and Collingwood keep passing us — they don’t wait for perfect timing.

No one is asking the club to throw $2M at Ashcroft or Daicos. The frustration comes from this idea that:

“We’re trying, but what can you do?”

That’s not ambition. That’s self-preservation dressed up as strategy.

Until we stop celebrating “almosts” and start landing actual best-22 players, nothing changes — and that’s all people are calling out.

Long on rhetoric and short on solutions.

What, specifically, would you do differently?

 

[Thunderoad]

You are right I was being kinfd to JSOS, maybe because i think his Mum is hot.
I'm pointing out our lack of aggression/ambition to get players into our organization.

What was the Wilkie pursuit if it wasn't ambitious and/or aggressive?

 

[Foxman98]

Long on rhetoric and short on solutions.

What, specifically, would you do differently?

Become a mixture of Geelong and Collingwood over night

 

[King Harold]

Devils advocate here.
We have used a lot of draft pick capital on father/ sons and JUH that surely limit your ability to trade aggressively for top end talent.

 

[Mofra]

Long on rhetoric and short on solutions.

What, specifically, would you do differently?

I'll bite.
Have a contingency plan for missing out on players?

We went for a 1% shot at Wilkie and a half hearted approach to Butts. Surely we knew Wilkie was extremely unlikely.

 

[Foxman98]

I'll bite.
Have a contingency plan for missing out on players?

We went for a 1% shot at Wilkie and a half hearted approach to Butts. Surely we knew Wilkie was extremely unlikely.

The contingency plan is Buss, Regan has said this they will target players who are an upgrade on what we have

I know you’re a Young fan who may or may not have been an upgrade but outside that the market is pretty thin

 

[Thunderoad]

Become a mixture of Geelong and Collingwood over night

I'll bite.
Have a contingency plan for missing out on players?

We went for a 1% shot at Wilkie and a half hearted approach to Butts. Surely we knew Wilkie was extremely unlikely.

We can't just manifest players we need out of thin air though and I think a lot of the commentary on this forum is predicated on the idea that we can.

 

[Mofra]

We can't just manifest players we need out of thin air though and I think a lot of the commentary on this forum is predicated on the idea that we can.

You missed the discussion on more gettable players?
Tylar Young was perfect for us and we should have gone much harder. Output vs cost stacked up perfectly.

Nobody thinks we should "manifest players out of thin air". That's complete BS.

 

[Foxman98]

We can't just manifest players we need out of thin air though and I think a lot of the commentary on this forum is predicated on the idea that we can.

think it’s more the realisation that failure comes with ambition and that we need to accept that

 

[Mofra]

The contingency plan is Buss, Regan has said this they will target players who are an upgrade on what we have

I know you’re a Young fan who may or may not have been an upgrade but outside that the market is pretty thin

I like Buss but the kid is just too damned raw.
I really think a 1 to 2 year option is perfect for us.

I would legitimately sign Sam Frost to a 12 month deal so we have a mature option back there. Release JOD to a "looser" role so we have third man up cover for deep D50 entries.

Budarick is a massive tick for me. Exactly the type we needed to target as a smaller defender.

 

[Foxman98]

I like Buss the kid is just too damned raw.
I really think a 1 to 2 year option is perfect for us.

I would legitimately sign Sam Frost to a 12 month deal so we have a mature option back there. Release JOD to a "looser" role so we have third man up cover for deep D50 entries.

Budarick is a massive tick for me. Exactly the type we needed to target as a smaller defender.

I would sign Frost as well but as VFL unless we get an injury

I also don’t mind us trying to adjust our play style or personnel either to go to 2 genuine talls with Cleary Buderick Dale Sellwood around them

 

[Mofra]

I would sign Frost as well but as VFL unless we get an injury

I also don’t mind us trying to adjust our play style or personnel either to go to 2 genuine talls with Cleary Buderick Dale Sellwood around them

I like Cleary but have no faith he's the answer to support in the air.
Sellwood may or may not make it.
Dale is rolled gold and Budarick is great on smalls.

 

[Foxman98]

I like Cleary but have no faith he's the answer to support in the air.
Sellwood may or may not make it.
Dale is rolled gold and Budarick is great on smalls.

I was the same after the Geelong game however his finish to the year when he came back in he really grew into the role

 

[Thunderoad]

You missed the discussion on more gettable players?
Tylar Young was perfect for us and we should have gone much harder. Output vs cost stacked up perfectly.

Nobody thinks we should "manifest players out of thin air". That's complete BS.

Disagree entirely.

If Young was that balance between ability and cost then there would have been far greater demand for his services, particularly givien how thin the stocks are of gettable key defensive players.

There are plenty of people here whose expectations of trading, given the pool of players available, are completely unrealistic.

 

[Mojorisin]

Disagree entirely.

If Young was that balance between ability and cost you then there would have been far greater demand for his services, particularly giving how thin the stocks are of gettable key defensive players.

There are plenty of people here whose expectations of trading, given the pool of players available, are completely unrealistic.

In reality we just couldn't compete with a move back to WA. Not to mention more job security and previous relationships with players and coaches.

 

[Munnez]

Appreciate the effort in your points, but a few things need correcting or at least balancing out.

1. “McStay didn’t play / Lipinski was sub”
That’s the whole point — Collingwood still made moves. They added depth and competition for spots. We’ve done nothing this year, even with gaping list holes.

2. Jeremy Cameron / Tom Lynch / Tim Kelly comparisons
Free agency isn’t about guessing the destination — it’s about being in the conversations and putting compelling offers on the table.

Geelong still had to put a deal together for Cameron, and it changed their fortunes.

Lynch helped win flags — that’s exactly the kind of strategic move we refuse to even attempt.

Tim Kelly was elite in his first two years and cost West Coast because they went after talent — that’s ambition. We don’t even test the market.


3. Caddy / Prestia vs. Kennedy
Caddy and Prestia were part of a Richmond list build that resulted in three flags. Perspective matters. We added Kennedy as a band-aid. They built a system around aggression in trade and recruitment — we sit back and hope for development.

4. “We didn’t have defensive issues in 2024”
Yes, and we didn’t win a final either. This year exposed that our depth and structure weren’t built to withstand injuries or form drops. Identifying Wilkie is good — but failing to land anyone is the issue. Close doesn’t count.

5. “Geelong have KPF/Ruck issues too”
And yet they tried to get Curnow and Marshall — that’s the difference. They’re aggressive and transparent about needs. We act like improvement is optional.

6. Turning Ed Richards into an AA mid
Brilliant internal development — and credit to Bevo for that. But internal growth should complement external recruitment, not replace it. Freijah was drafted last year — not a trade or free agent solution. Still no mature injection of talent.

7. Davidson / youth development
Promising kids are great, but contenders don’t rely solely on promise. They supplement with experience, competition and high-end talent from elsewhere. Our wing depth still falls away dramatically after starters.

8. “We had 6× 20+ goal kickers — same as Geelong”
And Geelong won finals while we sat on the couch. That’s the difference. They don’t accept “good enough” — they actively look to top up. Naughton is still the bailout option whenever our ball movement stalls. Opposition coaches know it.

Bottom line:
We aren’t losing because of zero talent — we’re stagnating because of zero ambition in the trade space. Other clubs keep looking for edges. We keep convincing ourselves everything’s fine and development alone will bridge the gap. History says it won’t.

Until we stop patting ourselves on the back for “almost landing” players and start actually closing deals, nothing changes

I understand the frustration that not much appears to be changing for us. Just because there isn't a lot of media speculation about anything we might be doing, isn't really indicative that we aren't attempting to attract talent.

We mightn't like but fact is we do have to fight against the big club bias that is out there. Which 100% puts us behind on the chase for any big name talents.

This being the case if we can get Butters to nominate next year we just need to pony up whatever it takes to get the deal done. That kind of deal can be transformational to a clubs ability to attract further talent.

Only need to look back to Lions when they were dogsh1t. Neale requests a trade to them and it was the beginning of changing their fortunes. They also got a decent leg up from the AFL. No surprises there can't have a weak side in a non football state.

We would obviously like to attract more mature talent. As Regan has stated no point doing deals just to be seen to be making a "move" if they aren't objectively going to make you better it's not worth doing.

We chased JSOS and Saints offered stupid amounts of money. Pivoted to Wilkie when we saw that there was a chance to pry him out. Alright didn't work but would suggest it had a big part in Saints walking out on Aleer. Which without doubt has damaged their credibility and will make it harder in the future to attract talent.

We wouldn't be loving the net result but we do see the gaps and are trying to address them. Unfortunately not a lot of KPD options out there, very much open to suggestions on who we should be targeting now to address it.

 

[Northern Dogs]

Become a mixture of Geelong and Collingwood over night

I prefer the name Footscray or Western Bulldogs over Collinglong or Geewood.

 

[cecil]

In the last 2 off-season we've lost Macrae, Smith, Daniel and Jamarra. That's probably 4 or our top 10 highest paid players. Yet we've brought in Kennedy on a likely average wage.

We should be towards the cap floor considering those moves. Its all well and good to be "opportunistic" with trades but it completely disregards the significant opportunity cost involved with that approach (key players getting older and cap space unused). I am really hoping that the unexpected Dale and Lobb extensions are a sign that we are front loading contracts to make a splash some point soon.