List Mgmt. Trade & Draft UltraThread- Warning, May Contain Speculation #combinethethreads

[Doashuey]

Unless you have one of the undisputed best ruckman in footy, Gawn/Grundy level, then they’re all worth about the same. A pretty good best 22 ruckman is not worth much more than a replacement level ruckman.

The gap between English and a ruckman off the scrap heap every few years is not nearly as big as the gap between All Australian winger Andrew Gaff and a midfielder off the scrap heap.

We’re not trading Andrew Gaff.

I guess that depends on 2 things:
1, how long he is contracted for, it has been rumored to be a long term but nothing has been confirmed
2- if Gaff decides he wants to return to Vic.

If he wants to go it gives us serious leverage. IMO he hasnt been a shadow of the player he was in 2018, can rack em up but isnt knockin em down.

 

[FKASC]

I guess that depends on 2 things:
1, how long he is contracted for, it has been rumored to be a long term but nothing has been confirmed
2- if Gaff decides he wants to return to Vic.

If he wants to go it gives us serious leverage. IMO he hasnt been a shadow of the player he was in 2018, can rack em up but isnt knockin em down.

Yeah no hurt factor this year at all

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Disagree. His 2018 was his best year, yes, and his 2019 is (unsurprisingly) not as good. He’s still had some exceptional games and is integral to what makes our system run.

To say he hasn’t replicated his career best form and therefore he’s expendable is a stretch to me. Acknowledging his hurt factor has been down this year, he still does more damage, more consistently than most.

Didn’t he say on the Eagles podcast a few weeks ago that he’s here for his entire career and may consider moving to Melbourne post football?

 

[Candiru]

Unless you have one of the undisputed best ruckman in footy, Gawn/Grundy level, then they’re all worth about the same. A pretty good best 22 ruckman is not worth much more than a replacement level ruckman.

Since when?

You don't reckon Scott Lycett or Ben McEvoy are significantly more handy than Zac Clarke?

We picked up Hickey for an incremental pick downgrade somewhere in the fourth round. We should offer a similar deal for Tim English or Rowan Marshall and see how we go? Because after Gawn/Grundy, they’re all worth about the same.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Since when?

You don't reckon Scott Lycett or Ben McEvoy are significantly more handy than Zac Clarke?

We picked up Hickey for an incremental pick downgrade somewhere in the fourth round. We should offer a similar deal for Tim English or Rowan Marshall and see how we go? Because after Gawn/Grundy, they’re all worth about the same.

This thread needed more semantics, so I’m happy you’re here.

The impact that Hickey has on a game is, by and large, the same as the impact Marshall has on a game. Marshall is a better player. St Kilda, rightfully, would value Marshall a lot higher, as he’s going to be better overall throughout the course of a season, but on a game by game basis the difference between winning and losing is unlikely to be Hickey vs Marshall. It’s not worth paying for the benefit you get in return.

Bringing ruckmen in that other teams still want is hard, you often have to overpay for production - see Scott Lycett earning $100k more per year than Dom Sheed for the next three years.

It’s far easier to find a replacement level ruckmen that will be adequate than a starting midfielder that will be adequate, so I would be loathe to trade a starting mid for a ruckman that isn’t one of the truly game changing stars.

List building is about creating value and exploiting the market. The market rate for decent ruckmen is far higher than their impact compared to the next best option.

 

[FKASC]

(se)man(t)ic depression

 

[Candiru]

This thread needed more semantics, so I’m happy you’re here.

The impact that Hickey has on a game is, by and large, the same as the impact Marshall has on a game. Marshall is a better player. St Kilda, rightfully, would value Marshall a lot higher, as he’s going to be better overall throughout the course of a season, but on a game by game basis the difference between winning and losing is unlikely to be Hickey vs Marshall. It’s not worth paying for the benefit you get in return.

Bringing ruckmen in that other teams still want is hard, you often have to overpay for production - see Scott Lycett earning $100k more per year than Dom Sheed for the next three years.

It’s far easier to find a replacement level ruckmen that will be adequate than a starting midfielder that will be adequate, so I would be loathe to trade a starting mid for a ruckman that isn’t one of the truly game changing stars.

List building is about creating value and exploiting the market. The market rate for decent ruckmen is far higher than their impact compared to the next best option.

Do you even know what "semantics" are?

You said ruckmen below the elite Gawn/Grundy level are worth about the same.

That is demonstrably not the case.

We got Hickey, who is apparently best 22, for loose change. Would we be able to go and get Rowan Marshall or Tim English for the same? No. Because they're worth much more.

 

[HoneyBadger35]

Do you even know what "semantics" are?

You said ruckmen below the elite Gawn/Grundy level are worth about the same.

That is demonstrably not the case.

We got Hickey, who is apparently best 22, for loose change. Would we be able to go and get Rowan Marshall or Tim English for the same? No. Because they're worth much more.

They’re ‘worth’ more in the market, but their impact isn’t enough to justify that cost. That’s my entire point. You have to overpay to bring ruckmen in. The Eagles haven’t lost a single game this year because we had Hickey and not English. The gap between those two players is not a difference maker on a game by game basis, but the gap between their cost in the market is extraordinary. It’s not worth it.

Port had to give Scott Lycett a five year, three million dollar deal to prise him away. Any less and we would have just kept him. They’ll be paying a 31 year old Scott Lycett 600k, while we pay a 24 year old Dom Sheed $450k per year to have much more impact on a game.

You have to overpay to bring in ruckmen that their club still wants. It is not worth the price.

None of this is to say that English isn’t better than Hickey, just that the cost of doing that piece of business is massive, and it’s easier to replace ruckmen than mids. Finding a ruckman to adequately navigate the season with is easier than finding a replacement for All Australian midfielder Andrew Gaff.

 

[Candiru]

They’re ‘worth’ more in the market, but their impact isn’t enough to justify that cost. That’s my entire point. You have to overpay to bring ruckmen in. The Eagles haven’t lost a single game this year because we had Hickey and not English. The gap between those two players is not a difference maker on a game by game basis, but the gap between their cost in the market is extraordinary. It’s not worth it.

Port had to give Scott Lycett five year, three million dollar deal to prise him away. Any less and we would have just kept him. They’ll be paying a 31 year old Scott Lycett 600k, while we pay a 24 year old Dom Sheed $450k per year to have much more impact on a game.

You have to overpay to bring in ruckmen that their club still wants. It is not worth the price.

By all means, there is a premium attached to readymade ruckmen. And you might well argue English wouldn't be worth what we'd have to pay to get him. If that is your argument, I don't disagree. But that's not the same as all ruckmen below Gawn/Grundy being worth roughly the same. There are still significant differences in their trade value and their real "use value" or impact/utility.

 

[bUCKET__]

Eagles lock in trio of youngsters

West Coast have continued their re-signing spree, with Brayden Ainsworth, Jack Petruccelle and Francis Watson the latest to put pen to paper.

www.google.com

Thanks m8, dunno how I missed this one. Wonder if that means we're committed to upgrading him end of this year. Or perhaps he gets another year on the rookie list if his first year as a Cat-B rookie doesn't count.

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

Oh man, I left the changes thread lest I have a part in derailing it but I see Gunnar has already metastasised to this thread too.

 

[eagles_4_life]

Thanks m8, dunno how I missed this one. Wonder if that means we're committed to upgrading him end of this year. Or perhaps he gets another year on the rookie list if his first year as a Cat-B rookie doesn't count.

He's on the main list already

 

[KO_KO]

Oh man, I left the changes thread lest I have a part in derailing it but I see Gunnar has already metastasised to this thread too.

Seems like a decent discussion to me so far


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[KO_KO]

Just read the changes thread I’ll show myself out


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Eastcoasteagle]

https://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-2...m=feed&utm_campaign=RSS+feed:+AFL+Latest+News

This guy is a gun tall mid, can play back too. Could potentially drop to our first now...

 

[Scotland]

We're not going after English after he just re-signed. If we were into him we would've been into him before he signed, and if he was into us he would've, well, not signed.

 

[Godfather32]

We’re not trading Andrew Gaff.

Darling on the other hand...

 

[Dark Sharks]

Are English and Marshall better players and more valuable than Hickey? Yes.

Is it worth pursuing either of them right now? No.



Not even worth discussing, unless you're a bell end of course. Also Hickey is s**t.

 

[Candiru]

Are English and Marshall better players and more valuable than Hickey? Yes.

Seems obvious.

 

[Coasters7]

Are English and Marshall better players and more valuable than Hickey? Yes.

Is it worth pursuing either of them right now? No.



Not even worth discussing, unless you're a bell end of course. Also Hickey is s**t.

The real question is.. is Kreuzer better than both of them combined..

 

[Candiru]

Do you guys think that we shouldn't seek to improve our ruck stocks at year's end?

 

[Dark Sharks]

Do you guys think that we shouldn't seek to improve our ruck stocks at year's end?

Depends. Improve it via the draft, sure. We could 'potentially' squeeze another main ruckman onto the list to develop in place of Brooksby

But there is no superstar or up and coming superstar (English, Marshall, ROB) who is worth chasing or trading for right now.


We already have a solid ruckman in Hickey and a superstar in Nicnat, when we can get him on the park. Our ruck stocks aren't as dire as you seem to think.

It's hardly a 'pressing need' I'd consider our KPD and mid stocks to be more important personally.

 

[Gaffy Duck]

So basically the past 20 pages is just arguments.

 

[Candiru]

Depends. Improve it via the draft, sure. We could 'potentially' squeeze another main ruckman onto the list to develop in place of Brooksby

But there is no superstar or up and coming superstar (English, Marshall, ROB) who is worth chasing or trading for.

We already have a solid ruckman in Hickey and a superstar in Nicnat, when we can get him on the park. Our ruck stocks aren't as dire as you seem to think.

It's hardly a 'pressing need' I'd consider our KPD and mid stocks to be more important personally.

My position has been we should seek to improve our ruck stocks with a physically mature ruckman who would at least put pressure on Hickey's spot and could ideally even surpass him. I'm not advocating chasing English or Marshall - I agree, the cost would be too high.

You say our ruck stocks aren't dire. But with Naitanui injured, we have Hickey and then what?

 

[FKASC]

So basically the past 20 pages is just arguments.

Welcome to every trade thread ever