List Mgmt. Trade & Draft UltraThread- Warning, May Contain Speculation

Monocle

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With honest hindsight the club has done far better than any of us could have chosen. Unless someone can provide a link showing who they would have chosen over these drafts I call bull on any melt
Dude you have a very selective memory if you can’t recall the support for Berry, SPP and Worpel.

And I call bull on you not agreeing that both Berry and Worpel would have made our midfield rotations better last weekend against Adelaide.

No one expects the recruiters to nail every pick on every draft but to say posters didn’t and haven’t put up ( pre draft ) some very good alternate picks is simply not true.
 

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FatPizza

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Dude you have a very selective memory if you can’t recall the support for Berry, SPP and Worpel.

And I call bull on you not agreeing that both Berry and Worpel would have made our midfield rotations better last weekend against Adelaide.

No one expects the recruiters to nail every pick on every draft but to say posters didn’t and haven’t put up ( pre draft ) some very good alternate picks is simply not true.
Speaking of selective memory, whilst our board was quite high on SPP the vast majority did not think he was worth our first round pick. The narrative that we somehow missed out on him due to negligence only appeared after Port snapped him up earlier than what we expected.
 

Keys

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From memory most people, myself included, were keen on Powell-Pepper although there was also some doubts on him due to his disposal and that he was a bit of a reach at our pick.

As the draft got closer Berry was the name getting linked with us and whilst he had pockets of support I recall the vanilla term getting thrown around regularly

The Venables selection came pretty much out of nowhere. If he can get over his concussion and get a full preseason in for the first time since arriving I still have hope that he can impact games more regularly but I doubt he’ll ever get to be that 25-30 disposal mid that Berry could become

With the benefit of hindsight and given our current need for more midfield depth, Berry would have been the better selection but I can understand why Venables was taken
 

Monocle

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Speaking of selective memory, whilst our board was quite high on SPP the vast majority did not think he was worth our first round pick. The narrative that we somehow missed out on him due to negligence only appeared after Port snapped him up earlier than what we expected.
Sure on this board SPP had his detractors he was in the conversation but he like Galuci was seen as having some limitations ( namely SPP his disposal). But at the same time he also had his fans.
We took a punt on Venables as a HFF that we hoped wouldn’t blossom into a midfielder, to date that has not eventuated , still time for him to develop and improve in that area.
I was a fan of him pre draft but viewed him as a super skillfull flanker and to date that’s exactly what he is . If he can increase his possession count then he will be a very good player. What he does have in spades is genuine foot speed and that was also a priority for our list at the time.
 

AsterixTheGaul

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From memory most people, myself included, were keen on Powell-Pepper although there was also some doubts on him due to his disposal and that he was a bit of a reach at our pick.

As the draft got closer Berry was the name getting linked with us and whilst he had pockets of support I recall the vanilla term getting thrown around regularly

The Venables selection came pretty much out of nowhere. If he can get over his concussion and get a full preseason in for the first time since arriving I still have hope that he can impact games more regularly but I doubt he’ll ever get to be that 25-30 disposal mid that Berry could become

With the benefit of hindsight and given our current need for more midfield depth, Berry would have been the better selection but I can understand why Venables was taken
If Venables was taken to give us a fast half forward, then I can see why we picked him. If however Venables was taken with midfield in mind, I cannot agree with you on that as I said at the time and still believe he is not a midfielder.
 

Art OF war

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Our drafting has been pretty good. As DS would say we won a premiership gaiz. Everybody needs to take a deep breath.

I think I was on the Galluci train. My friend was on the SPP train. Did not want to get Berry. And thus the reason why I and 99.283% of this board should never be a recruiter.

We deliberately got games into Venables last year, similar to Oscar Allen, despite the fact that on performance we should of dropped them. They'll be better for it. Venables just needs to build his tank for repeat efforts and midfield time. Rioli will end up playing increased midfield minutes once he gets another preseason.

We still probably need a midfielder or two in this draft though to fill the gap in 3-5 years.
 

DanWCE

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Nelson spent a preseason with the mids and has played some minutes there as a tagger this year. He, Duggan and Cole all have some scope to play midfield.

With Rotham and Franky waiting in the twos I'd like to see the club review our list and identify who might be able to role through the midfield rotations more heavily and train them up over the preseason. Yeo believes he is now a better, more complete midfielder from his time spent in defence so I'd happily take more of that.
 

Keys

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Dude you have a very selective memory if you can’t recall the support for Berry, SPP and Worpel.

And I call bull on you not agreeing that both Berry and Worpel would have made our midfield rotations better last weekend against Adelaide.

No one expects the recruiters to nail every pick on every draft but to say posters didn’t and haven’t put up ( pre draft ) some very good alternate picks is simply not true.
From our side that played against Adelaide who would Worpel and/or Berry replace?

I could see Berry getting a game ahead of Nelson but that’s not a midfield rotation. Maybe Petruccelle but again not a midfield rotation and that would rob us of some of the pace that makes our forward half so dangerous

As far as mids go Hutchings is the only one that you’d consider but given Simpson’s penchant for specific roles I’m not sure either Berry or Worpel are getting in ahead of him

No doubt both would give us better depth to cover injury but Worpel in particular would be slugging it out in the WAFL waiting for an opportunity and considering a trade home for more game time. Berry would probably be shoe-horned in somewhere the way Venables was given he’s more versatile
 

AsterixTheGaul

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Hmm

Lets revisit 2014 - Duggan @ 11 - I think a correct choice with Ellis the only claim after that.
Lamb didn't work out but that was not a talent thing.
Can't see an inside mid (with speed & kicking ability) after #11 although Caleb Daniels deserves a mention.
Note - The selection of Nelson deserves credit.

2015 - traded for Redden (an inside mid with kicking skills)
Can't see an inside mid of note after #28. Maybe Menegola maybe. In fact Oliver & Hopper probably only ones in entire draft.

2016 - venables @13 with Berry @ 17 & SPP @ 18 only other inside mids. I accept English, Hayward, Fisher were there after that but none are inside mids.

2017 - successful draft.

I know you're strong on Berry but if we accept that was a miss - I'm not sure exactly what WC should have done differently in those drafts.
I view the 2016 and 2017 drafts in total as successful. The problem is that we need to break the chain of not getting ourselves a top inside mid. Seems that with Yeo, Redden and possibly Kelly we might just have to rely on trading for inside midfielders. We certainly are better than most at selecting Talls so maybe we need to be more active in trading talls for mids. That will be a change of direction as we have generally been very good at keeping and developing our draftees.

I look forward to eating humble pie with Ainsworth. He will be 22 at the end of next season when he comes out of contract, so he has a very short window to prove to the new list manager he will be worth keeping on the list.

In terms of 2018 draft, I think we nailed the Williams, Cameron and Edwards picks. Not saying they are the finished items yet but I see why we selected them and I believe at an early stage they are keepers. Also loved the pick upgrade work with Sydney. O'Neill (seems like a real O'Brien pick but felt like a full round too early) is a wait see because he has shown he can play while I have low expectations for Foley. I note that there a run of inside mid options at the end of day 1 and hence slim pickings for inside mids at the start of day 2 so fair call to trade back.

In looking at the 2019 crop of draftees, I believe there will be some really good options at our 1st and Sydney's 2nd pick. I am also understanding that if we get Kelly, we will probably lose our first this year and next year. Then we have to nail our first pick and not go best available but go best available midfielder. If we then come away with Kelly and a Rivers/Schoenberg type at our first pick of the draft, then all OK. Maybe go a Chad Warner sort for our second pick.


The thing I am surprisingly optimistic about is the midfielder we may have in our grasp of Rioli. I am loving his forward craft but now that he has some of his fitness back, he is starting to look dangerous further up the field. He is very handy at centre clearances and I am looking forward to seeing a NicNat to Willie hit out team.
 

liam123

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Dude you have a very selective memory if you can’t recall the support for Berry, SPP and Worpel.

And I call bull on you not agreeing that both Berry and Worpel would have made our midfield rotations better last weekend against Adelaide.

No one expects the recruiters to nail every pick on every draft but to say posters didn’t and haven’t put up ( pre draft ) some very good alternate picks is simply not true.
I only called bull on everyone wanting berry. Almost everyone on here wanted SPP and Worpel I agree on that.
 

AsterixTheGaul

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From our side that played against Adelaide who would Worpel and/or Berry replace?

I could see Berry getting a game ahead of Nelson but that’s not a midfield rotation. Maybe Petruccelle but again not a midfield rotation and that would rob us of some of the pace that makes our forward half so dangerous

As far as mids go Hutchings is the only one that you’d consider but given Simpson’s penchant for specific roles I’m not sure either Berry or Worpel are getting in ahead of him

No doubt both would give us better depth to cover injury but Worpel in particular would be slugging it out in the WAFL waiting for an opportunity and considering a trade home for more game time. Berry would probably be shoe-horned in somewhere the way Venables was given he’s more versatile
Berry has been playing a winger at Brisbane with the occasional inside stint. I would select him ahead of both Hutchings and Masten for the wing with Gaff on the other.
 

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Wedgetailed Westerner

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Dude you have a very selective memory if you can’t recall the support for Berry, SPP and Worpel.

And I call bull on you not agreeing that both Berry and Worpel would have made our midfield rotations better last weekend against Adelaide.

No one expects the recruiters to nail every pick on every draft but to say posters didn’t and haven’t put up ( pre draft ) some very good alternate picks is simply not true.
Monocle I agree with you there. However, it's easy for us supporters to look from the outside at possible draftees and say that they would be a perfect fit for us and a no brainer. Without having access to the testing and interviews and anything else our great club, has put the draftees through, then all we can do is hope and speculate why the kid/s were taken or not taken. For the kids they didnt take (Berry, Worpel, SPP) the club obviously had their reasons. I myself can only speculate and not agree with whatever those reasons must be:)
I do think the club, realises that they need to continue stocking up the midfield, so they trade in players instead (Redden and TK this year)mif they believe they couldn't find on ein the draft.
 

tigger_ferret

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Dude you have a very selective memory if you can’t recall the support for Berry, SPP and Worpel.

And I call bull on you not agreeing that both Berry and Worpel would have made our midfield rotations better last weekend against Adelaide.

No one expects the recruiters to nail every pick on every draft but to say posters didn’t and haven’t put up ( pre draft ) some very good alternate picks is simply not true.
I read the initial comment that our recruiters overall have done a very good job, yes they miss the odd 1 or 2 (Berry or Worpel) but to melt over these picks is pointless. Especially when you throw in picks in the 40’s such as Barrass, Nelson, Willie.

I rate your opinion and insight into potential draftees very highly, but I’m sure you’ve had a few favourites that have been bust, I think you would have done far better than Freo’s recruiting, but think overall WCE would be sitting ahead even including the head scratching picks such as Anus or Gorter

Again no point melting over the few missed picks, it’s a bit like the game day melts despite winning the game
 

Monocle

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Wedgetailed Westerner good post and Yes I think in the main out recruitment staff have done a very good job, after all they just delivered us a Premiership and maybe even a shot at back to back.
Some of my posts are a touch mischievous and deliberately provocative and I don’t ever shy away from the fact that I want our Club to be in a constant search for excellence.

That said I think most here would agree that our midfield depth is not flash and needs urgent attention.
Days like last Sunday just annoy the s**t out of me when I see the likes of the Crouch brothers and Sloan tear us apart at stoppages , hence my angst.

What our recruiting team now have at their disposal, that they did not have previously, is the ability to trade down in a draft and specifically target player X or Y to ensure we get our mark in the draft. This allows a flexibility to maximise draft picks and more specifically address list needs. Where as our previous success has precluded us from picks at the pointy end of the draft.
 

Yamumluvsbigcox

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Venners is still only 21 had a shocking run with injury. Is beautifully skilled, strong and duel sided his athleticism and skill is top end.

I’d rather be trying to improve a players tank/ Midfield capacity then teach them skills
His talent is their for sure and it the type of player that makes things happen . I think people are disappointed that he hasnt stepped up and made a transition to the midfield .

He had surgury after the GF and didnt have a pre season . This pretty much ruled him out of tranitioning to the midfield this season .

Im sure he would have played his Hff role this season and tried to improve but the concussion has ended his season .

He is only 21 so many mids dont hit their straps until 23-24 .

We are lucky enough to have a list with depth enough to give him time
 

BOND 007

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I view the 2016 and 2017 drafts in total as successful. The problem is that we need to break the chain of not getting ourselves a top inside mid. Seems that with Yeo, Redden and possibly Kelly we might just have to rely on trading for inside midfielders. We certainly are better than most at selecting Talls so maybe we need to be more active in trading talls for mids. That will be a change of direction as we have generally been very good at keeping and developing our draftees.

I look forward to eating humble pie with Ainsworth. He will be 22 at the end of next season when he comes out of contract, so he has a very short window to prove to the new list manager he will be worth keeping on the list.

In terms of 2018 draft, I think we nailed the Williams, Cameron and Edwards picks. Not saying they are the finished items yet but I see why we selected them and I believe at an early stage they are keepers. Also loved the pick upgrade work with Sydney. O'Neill (seems like a real O'Brien pick but felt like a full round too early) is a wait see because he has shown he can play while I have low expectations for Foley. I note that there a run of inside mid options at the end of day 1 and hence slim pickings for inside mids at the start of day 2 so fair call to trade back.

In looking at the 2019 crop of draftees, I believe there will be some really good options at our 1st and Sydney's 2nd pick. I am also understanding that if we get Kelly, we will probably lose our first this year and next year. Then we have to nail our first pick and not go best available but go best available midfielder. If we then come away with Kelly and a Rivers/Schoenberg type at our first pick of the draft, then all OK. Maybe go a Chad Warner sort for our second pick.


The thing I am surprisingly optimistic about is the midfielder we may have in our grasp of Rioli. I am loving his forward craft but now that he has some of his fitness back, he is starting to look dangerous further up the field. He is very handy at centre clearances and I am looking forward to seeing a NicNat to Willie hit out team.

What supporters have to accept is that recruiters are also aware of holes in the list. However there are factors privy to recruiters that are not public knowledge. As such decisions are made that from the outside don't make sense but from inside are perfectly logical.

The other unknown is the ceiling each player can reach & is what recruiters live and die with.
Tom Lamb had enormous talent and WC were amazed he lasted that far. We genuinely thought he could mirror Hird.

On the flip side - is Liam Ryan. Probably nobody including Liam himself could envisage how quick his development was. He was accused of being lazy at WAFL - an accusation you would laugh at now.

Recruiters look at certain characteristics to determine possibility to move into midfield especially when selecting where WC have which recently has been mid to late teens. The very best goes top 5 - after that its conjecture & guesswork.

Was Duggan selected with the possibility of being a midfielder rotation - yes. Same with Venables. Did WC think Rioli could do some midfield time - an honest answer was a very guarded yes. But his development and ability make that more than just a possibility.
 

DanWCE

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What supporters have to accept is that recruiters are also aware of holes in the list. However there are factors privy to recruiters that are not public knowledge. As such decisions are made that from the outside don't make sense but from inside are perfectly logical.

The other unknown is the ceiling each player can reach & is what recruiters live and die with.
Tom Lamb had enormous talent and WC were amazed he lasted that far. We genuinely thought he could mirror Hird.

On the flip side - is Liam Ryan. Probably nobody including Liam himself could envisage how quick his development was. He was accused of being lazy at WAFL - an accusation you would laugh at now.

Recruiters look at certain characteristics to determine possibility to move into midfield especially when selecting where WC have which recently has been mid to late teens. The very best goes top 5 - after that its conjecture & guesswork.

Was Duggan selected with the possibility of being a midfielder rotation - yes. Same with Venables. Did WC think Rioli could do some midfield time - an honest answer was a very guarded yes. But his development and ability make that more than just a possibility.
Reading between the lines Coniglio to WCE confirmed!!
 

AsterixTheGaul

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Venners is still only 21 had a shocking run with injury. Is beautifully skilled, strong and duel sided his athleticism and skill is top end.

I’d rather be trying to improve a players tank/ Midfield capacity then teach them skills
As you say, Venables is one of our most skilled players. His downside is that he has never had a complete year of football. Last year was his best since being drafted and it was only 2/3rds of a year from memory. His 2 years at Western Jets were both injury plagued. So will he ever get his body right to put in a full season? If so great, but I believe he will continue to be a 20 possession player as he is not at the drop of the ball or the bottom of the pack. which is more the inside role.
 

Spider Klein

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Berry has been playing a winger at Brisbane with the occasional inside stint. I would select him ahead of both Hutchings and Masten for the wing with Gaff on the other.
The Berry argument taking place would be meaningless if we had taken Duncan instead of Weedon or Stevens. That imo was the miss. There really wasn't any reason to miss Duncan there. And this isn't hindsight there was massive Duncan support at the time.
 

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