List Mgmt. Trade & Draft UltraThread- Warning, May Contain Speculation

RanaNaved

Senior List
Feb 15, 2019
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Is his kicking really that bad?
Or could he manage with what he's got if his other attributes stack up?
It's pretty bad. He needs time to execute his drawn out and technically awful kicking style. Usually goes short and safe as a result.
His longer kicks (about 40m) are to contests. His kicks lack the penetration and accuracy required to do anything other than kicking to a pack.
 

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beatlesmith

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 18, 2006
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Berry has been one of those draftees that excelled in the AFL environment. Nobody would be predicted he'd improve like he has. At draft time he was considered very vanilla HBF who didnt have much scope to improve as others (Venables for example had much higher expected scope for improvement).
This is laughably bad revisionist history.
Berry was being discussed as a potential number-one pick during his draft year.
Here's Cal Twomey's take back in June 2016:
Jarrod Berry
Midfielder/half-back
191cm/80kg
5/2/98
North Ballarat Rebels/Vic Country


Berry won All Australian honours last year for his work off half-back for Vic Country, but is likely to be pushed up the ground for this year's carnival. With his height, agility and strength, Berry is best as an inside midfielder who finds the ball and bursts away. He can also push forward to create an awkward match-up near goal or play across centre-half back, and has shown his leadership qualities over the past couple of years. Berry is one of a number of players in the mix as No.1 pick contenders.
Totally screams "vanilla" and limited "scope to improve" :rolleyes:

Here we have someone who was
  • 191cm
  • Versatile
  • The standout performer in the draft combine (1st in beep test and 3km time trial, 4th in repeat sprints, 6th in agility and 3rd in kicking)
  • Considered to be one of the toughest, if not the toughest player in his cohort
  • U18 All-Australian as an underage player, AFL Academy Mitchell medallist
  • The captain of his teams (AFL Academy, Vic Country and North Ballarat).

Here's what I posted shortly before the draft:
We've been calling out for tall, athletic midfield prospects for years on this board. Since the 2015 Grand Final (or even before) we've been calling out for better on-field leadership. Then someone like Berry appears in front of us and we complain because he hasn't played enough midfield and hasn't picked up enough touches this year?

Do you know what they call tall, athletic full time midfielders with leadership skills, U18 AA and AFL Academy pedigree and stellar draft-year seasons? Number one picks.
We're picking at 13-15 tomorrow. We shouldn't be expecting perfect or vaguely near-perfect prospects in that range. The only reason that we may have the opportunity to pick Berry is that he's had a middling draft year (on account of injuries and patchy form) and his best position isn't fully settled. Take away either of those issues and he's firmly a top 10, if not top 5 pick.
Nah - you're right - there's no way we could have predicted that he would develop into a very good player...
 

Eastcoasteagle

Club Legend
Oct 20, 2017
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Hmm

Lets revisit 2014 - Duggan @ 11 - I think a correct choice with Ellis the only claim after that.
Lamb didn't work out but that was not a talent thing.
Can't see an inside mid (with speed & kicking ability) after #11 although Caleb Daniels deserves a mention.
Note - The selection of Nelson deserves credit.

2015 - traded for Redden (an inside mid with kicking skills)
Can't see an inside mid of note after #28. Maybe Menegola maybe. In fact Oliver & Hopper probably only ones in entire draft.

2016 - venables @13 with Berry @ 17 & SPP @ 18 only other inside mids. I accept English, Hayward, Fisher were there after that but none are inside mids.

2017 - successful draft.

I know you're strong on Berry but if we accept that was a miss - I'm not sure exactly what WC should have done differently in those drafts.
I really liked Venables selection, he was a hff through the champs but played midfield for pegs. Berry was a hbf through the champs and had a bit of midfield time later in TAC cup. So both similar lead ups to the draft, but Venners had more x factor.

But they've had two very different experiences since in the afl system, Berry almost instantly got afl exposure as the lions weren't great, plus had a clean bill of health. Venables missed most of his first year, then had to crack into a seriously good side with a limited preseason. He was never going to get much midfield exposure with our midfield. This year he again had limited preseason and now a serious concussion. Hoping he gets a big preseason in and becomes part of the midfield group, as I think he'll become a jet.
 

Wadsworth

All Australian
Jul 21, 2015
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I really liked Venables selection, he was a hff through the champs but played midfield for pegs. Berry was a hbf through the champs and had a bit of midfield time later in TAC cup. So both similar lead ups to the draft, but Venners had more x factor.

But they've had two very different experiences since in the afl system, Berry almost instantly got afl exposure as the lions weren't great, plus had a clean bill of health. Venables missed most of his first year, then had to crack into a seriously good side with a limited preseason. He was never going to get much midfield exposure with our midfield. This year he again had limited preseason and now a serious concussion. Hoping he gets a big preseason in and becomes part of the midfield group, as I think he'll become a jet.
I agree. I was actually hoping for Berry or Venables at the draft, so was happy with the pick.

Venables’ seeming lack of development in the middle last year has me concerned that we won’t reach what I’d hoped when we selected him. His injuries have certainly held him back. But I’d like to point out that in the first game last season against Sydney, Venables started the first bounce... not on a flank... but right in the guts. The Match Committee clearly rated him after a full pre-season as a potential midfielder. Maybe that has changed following a somewhat stagnant season last year, but at the start of 2018 he was definitely being groomed as a mid. I hope he gets a full preseason next year.
 
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Godfather32

Brownlow Medallist
Jan 13, 2013
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Williams quiety re-signed by us until 2022. I might be off the reservation but rate him as high as Brander (and I rate Brander highly). Gem
Keen on him getting some games next year, I think if Nic Nat gets (and stays) fit then Williams would be a great option to pair up with him.
 

Eastcoasteagle

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Oct 20, 2017
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I agree. I was actually hoping for Berry or Venables at the draft, so was happy with the pick.

Venables’ seeming lack of development in the middle last year has me concerned that we won’t reach what I’d hoped when we selected him. His injuries have certainly held him back. But I’d like to point out that in the first game last season against Sydney, Venables started the first bounce... not on a flank... but right in the guts. The Match Committee clearly rated him after a full pre-season as a potential midfielder. Maybe that has changed following a somewhat stagnant season last year, but at the start of 2018 he was definitely being groomed as a mid. I hope he gets a full preseason next year.
Yeah, then he got that injury in round 4 vs Suns and only came back as a hff after that. I'm still think he'll be a good mid.
 

AsterixTheGaul

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Berry has been one of those draftees that excelled in the AFL environment. Nobody would be predicted he'd improve like he has. At draft time he was considered very vanilla HBF who didnt have much scope to improve as others (Venables for example had much higher expected scope for improvement).
That is s load of crap. Not sure whether you are being obtuse and deliberately s**tstiring or you were living under s rock in 2016.
 

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TOA.

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Oct 30, 2006
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That is s load of crap. Not sure whether you are being obtuse and deliberately s**tstiring or you were living under s rock in 2016.
No need to get angry. He was a bloke who already had an AFL level endurance and was seen as one of the most professional players in the draft class but only averaged 17 touches in the TAC. He was seen as a better prospect the year before he was draft so I'm sure there were queries about his scope for improvement given he had declined in his draft year - which is not uncommon as some blokes get found out when others catch up. I am not bagging him at all and I am not s**t stirring.
 

Monocle

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No need to get angry. He was a bloke who already had an AFL level endurance and was seen as one of the most professional players in the draft class but only averaged 17 touches in the TAC. He was seen as a better prospect the year before he was draft so I'm sure there were queries about his scope for improvement given he had declined in his draft year - which is not uncommon as some blokes get found out when others catch up. I am not bagging him at all and I am not s**t stirring.
Not sure how much you know of Berry's history and background.
Maybe his well documented struggles could explain the difference between his two years in the TAC cup comp and the subsequent match day stats.

Lost his mother to breast cancer in 2014.
Consequently moved to Boarding school in 2015 and played well at the Rebels, but at the end of the season popped his AC joint, so had a limited pre season in 2016 , that set him back in his start to the 2016 season.
This probably explained his drop in numbers in the front half of the season........ but like you say he "got found out as some other blokes catch up".
The longer the 2016 season went the better he got.... put in a massive combine, funny thing is there is no metric or test at the Combine that measure desire or pluck of a player.

So the queries about his scope for improvement, could be understood and factored in given his history, by more astute draft watchers.

Like others have said stats are handy but with out the colouring around them they don't always tell the true story.
 
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twce13

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Apr 29, 2012
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That is s load of crap. Not sure whether you are being obtuse and deliberately s**tstiring or you were living under s rock in 2016.
Berry and vanila was def being thrown around a lot in these parts in 2016, dont shoot the messanger.

Thats the problem i have with phantom drafts in general. Some of these forum experts throw a buzz word or two and half the forum recyle opinions on players after watching nothing more then a few mins of highlights.

I love how people bring up that player they advocated for in some draft years ago. At least bring up all the dud players you wanted.over the last half decade also.. :p thats the thing about drafting, its not one pick in isolation.

Anyway whoever said happy to let brandner go in a trade for kelly if it meant keeping one of our first rnd picks, yuk. Classic case of overrating a draft pick. Hopefully the club has more sense then that.
 

CM9000

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Aug 19, 2016
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You may have labeled him that way but you would have been mistaken. The proof is now in the pudding.
I don't think "everyone" wanted SPP. Berry had a fair few supporters on here.
I haven't labelled him a failure. I've acknowledged, two posts ago, that he has time to turn it around FFS. I don't think, based on what we've seen so far, that he is likely to ever develop the ball winning ability or tank required to become a good midfielder. He's more likely to settle as a forward.
In terms of making it as a midfielder, I think you pretty much have. That's where we expect (and want him) to end up.

And I was wrong about Berry, but he's turned out better than I think many people on here (predraft) thought he would. Personally, it was SPP or bust for me, so I'm not exactly disagreeing with you. However, you gotta give Venners a bit more time - it's just far too small a sample size to completely say he won't become a midfielder.
 

Godfather32

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Would hate to lose Petch. Has only been playing footy a couple years now so has plenty of scope to improve. Has hardly put a foot wrong so far.
I wouldn't say he's hardly put a foot wrong. He's a very, very good athlete but he doesn't have the football awareness to match it. Plays a fast but dumb game alot of the time
 

AsterixTheGaul

Plucked from the Amos
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Not sure how much you know of Berry's history and background.
Maybe his well documented struggles could explain the difference between his two years in the TAC cup comp and the subsequent match day stats.

Lost his mother to breast cancer in 2014.
Consequently moved to Boarding school in 2015 and played well at the Rebels, but at the end of the season popped his AC joint, so had a limited pre season in 2016 , that set him back in his start to the 2016 season.
This probably explained his drop in numbers in the front half of the season........ but like you say he "got found out as some other blokes catch up".
The longer the 2016 season went the better he got.... put in a massive combine, funny thing is there is no metric or test at the Combine that measure desire or pluck of a player.

So the queries about his scope for improvement, could be understood and factored in given his history, by more astute draft watchers.

Like others have said stats are handy but with out the colouring around them they don't always tell the true story.
Good overview - you summed up Berry’s 2 years at the u18 level pretty well. I recall catching up and we watched him for Vic Country and saw plenty in his game to like. His bottom age year was very good and not dissimilar to Cerra.
 

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