List Mgmt. Trade & F.A. 2017 (if a scenario sounds wrong - read on before posting)

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Dynamics

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Sorry to intrude but what do you think Schache is worth on his own? I been reading the Schache thread on the Brisbane board to get an idea of what he is worth but all I see is them rubbishing Treloar and Collingwood.
Ha! That's about right.

But he's a contracted KPP who went pick 2 a couple of years ago and had great junior form... it artificially pushes his price up compared to what he's actually shown in two seasons. On the other hand, someone like Ben Reid didn't exactly set the world on fire early days. Had issues with his kicking that were all in his head and he shows you can work through stuff to become a top shelf player. Especially a tall. They take time. Still, he showed more than Schache has in his first two years.

They would want a top 10 pick. I wouldn't pay that price. 11 to 20 would be more tempting.
 

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Dynamics

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I am only comparing because of any assumption that Schaches 2nd year blues are due primarily to the Lions and their culture/structures.

We were all saying the same thing about Aish 2 years ago. A guy who had a gun 1st year then seriously fell off the pace in his 2nd, had some reported issues with the club about wanting to leave, and spent time sent back to the NEAFL.
A lot of us thought that we would get an Aish who would immediately get back to his 1st year trajectory... when really what we've seen since is more reflective of his 2nd year.

I am purely saying that you have to be vary wary in thinking that whatever has stalled Schaches development this year can be jusy blamed on Brissy and will go away the moment he gets to the Pies.

Because the player we saw in 2017 is not worth giving up Pick 6 for.
The only excuse would be homesickness because the culture/structures are working pretty well for other young talls at the Lions.
 

TradeDraft

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I am only comparing because of any assumption that Schaches 2nd year blues are due primarily to the Lions and their culture/structures.

We were all saying the same thing about Aish 2 years ago. A guy who had a gun 1st year then seriously fell off the pace in his 2nd, had some reported issues with the club about wanting to leave, and spent time sent back to the NEAFL.
A lot of us thought that we would get an Aish who would immediately get back to his 1st year trajectory... when really what we've seen since is more reflective of his 2nd year.

I am purely saying that you have to be vary wary in thinking that whatever has stalled Schaches development this year can be jusy blamed on Brissy and will go away the moment he gets to the Pies.

Because the player we saw in 2017 is not worth giving up Pick 6 for.
Though a Player we need and Was a Gun at U-18 Level. Talls can take longer to come on
 
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The only excuse would be homesickness because the culture/structures are working pretty well for other young talls at the Lions.
That might be true, however there is a huge cultural difference between QLD and VIC. Including the subtle undercurrent of racism and the fact that they call Victorians Mexicans, as in south of the border!
 

3rdMan

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Ha! That's about right.

But he's a contracted KPP who went pick 2 a couple of years ago and had great junior form... it artificially pushes his price up compared to what he's actually shown in two seasons. On the other hand, someone like Ben Reid didn't exactly set the world on fire early days. Had issues with his kicking that were all in his head and he shows you can work through stuff to become a top shelf player. Especially a tall. They take time. Still, he showed more than Schache has in his first two years.

They would want a top 10 pick. I wouldn't pay that price. 11 to 20 would be more tempting.
I don't see how Reid showed more in his first two years. Two goals in 6 games. Also, like Schache went backwards in year two: from 2 goals to 0 and averaging 5 marks to 3.

Going beyond the stats: Reid looked awful, seemed scared to even kick the ball.

Schache has kicked 25 goals in 27 games. Hasn't set the world on fire, but neither is there any clear reason to think he won't make it, or even that his stock has dropped. He's probably still worth around pick 6. If our recruiters felt he was worth it I'd be happy to pay that, even a little more. I am dreading drafting a KPP with pick 6 or even worse downgrading the pick to take one.
 

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I am only comparing because of any assumption that Schaches 2nd year blues are due primarily to the Lions and their culture/structures.

We were all saying the same thing about Aish 2 years ago. A guy who had a gun 1st year then seriously fell off the pace in his 2nd, had some reported issues with the club about wanting to leave, and spent time sent back to the NEAFL.
A lot of us thought that we would get an Aish who would immediately get back to his 1st year trajectory... when really what we've seen since is more reflective of his 2nd year.

I am purely saying that you have to be vary wary in thinking that whatever has stalled Schaches development this year can be jusy blamed on Brissy and will go away the moment he gets to the Pies.

Because the player we saw in 2017 is not worth giving up Pick 6 for.
I think it's important to consider that what is a bad environment for one person may not necessarily be a bad environment for another.
 

Apex36

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I don't see how Reid showed more in his first two years. Two goals in 6 games. Also, like Schache went backwards in year two: from 2 goals to 0 and averaging 5 marks to 3.

Going beyond the stats: Reid looked awful, seemed scared to even kick the ball.
Wasn’t Reid pushed in to defence after his first year?
Schache has kicked 25 goals in 27 games. Hasn't set the world on fire, but neither is there any clear reason to think he won't make it, or even that his stock has dropped. He's probably still worth around pick 6. If our recruiters felt he was worth it I'd be happy to pay that, even a little more. I am dreading drafting a KPP with pick 6 or even worse downgrading the pick to take one.
I don’t think his ability is in question. More his frame of mind, specifically his desire to make it as an elite athlete. You have a kid here who actually wanted to be drafted by Brisbane, who in his second year has contemplated walking out during the year, only to re-sign. He then chose to drive home to Victoria rather than stay to watch/play with his team mates in the NEAFL grand final.

Now according to the Lions he was ‘cooked’ after looking at his gps readings. That raises alarm bells for two reasons. Either the Lions are being truthful and he’s legitimately cooked after only playing 9 senior afl games in addition to his 2 weeks of personal leave he was granted, which is fairly shocking for a second year player who came in to the system with big wraps on his endurance, or alternatively he wanted to get out of there and home ASAP
with no thought for his club or team mates. Given that his family lives in country Victoria, there’s no guarantee he’d even be happy in Melbourne long term.

I’ll be buggered if I’d be happy paying pick 6 for a guy with those kind of question marks over his head.
 

Thefly38

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Wasn’t Reid pushed in to defence after his first year?

I don’t think his ability is in question. More his frame of mind, specifically his desire to make it as an elite athlete. You have a kid here who actually wanted to be drafted by Brisbane, who in his second year has contemplated walking out during the year, only to re-sign. He then chose to drive home to Victoria rather than stay to watch/play with his team mates in the NEAFL grand final.

Now according to the Lions he was ‘cooked’ after looking at his gps readings. That raises alarm bells for two reasons. Either the Lions are being truthful and he’s legitimately cooked after only playing 9 senior afl games in addition to his 2 weeks of personal leave he was granted, which is fairly shocking for a second year player who came in to the system with big wraps on his endurance, or alternatively he wanted to get out of there and home ASAP
with no thought for his club or team mates. Given that his family lives in country Victoria, there’s no guarantee he’d even be happy in Melbourne long term.

I’ll be buggered if I’d be happy paying pick 6 for a guy with those kind of question marks over his head.
Lol he could live in Seymour if he wanted and still play at collingwood haha
 

3rdMan

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Wasn’t Reid pushed in to defence after his first year?

I don’t think his ability is in question. More his frame of mind, specifically his desire to make it as an elite athlete. You have a kid here who actually wanted to be drafted by Brisbane, who in his second year has contemplated walking out during the year, only to re-sign. He then chose to drive home to Victoria rather than stay to watch/play with his team mates in the NEAFL grand final.

Now according to the Lions he was ‘cooked’ after looking at his gps readings. That raises alarm bells for two reasons. Either the Lions are being truthful and he’s legitimately cooked after only playing 9 senior afl games in addition to his 2 weeks of personal leave he was granted, which is fairly shocking for a second year player who came in to the system with big wraps on his endurance, or alternatively he wanted to get out of there and home ASAP
with no thought for his club or team mates. Given that his family lives in country Victoria, there’s no guarantee he’d even be happy in Melbourne long term.

I’ll be buggered if I’d be happy paying pick 6 for a guy with those kind of question marks over his head.
These are not things I'm willing to assess from outside. I see the talent and a need, if our recruiters are happy with his commitment levels then I'm sold.

Can't remember when Reid moved to defence, didn't think it was his second year. Either way his numbers were terrible for his first three years whether he was forward or back: 8 games in 3 years and only 2 in the third. All of a sudden his 4th year saw him play 21 games and double his disposal and mark average. Oh, played in a Premiership as well. So it can happen quickly.
 

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Dynamics

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That might be true, however there is a huge cultural difference between QLD and VIC. Including the subtle undercurrent of racism and the fact that they call Victorians Mexicans, as in south of the border!
There's a big difference, but that's the homesickness I was talking about.

I live in Qld and I'm a pinko southerner. It's not that bad, especially in inner Brisbane. If he was living in Ipswich or Toowoomba, sure. Bob Katters and Pauline Hansons abound.
 

Dynamics

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I don't see how Reid showed more in his first two years. Two goals in 6 games. Also, like Schache went backwards in year two: from 2 goals to 0 and averaging 5 marks to 3.

Going beyond the stats: Reid looked awful, seemed scared to even kick the ball.

Schache has kicked 25 goals in 27 games. Hasn't set the world on fire, but neither is there any clear reason to think he won't make it, or even that his stock has dropped. He's probably still worth around pick 6. If our recruiters felt he was worth it I'd be happy to pay that, even a little more. I am dreading drafting a KPP with pick 6 or even worse downgrading the pick to take one.
Reid looked awful when lining up to kick for sure. It was purely a mental issue and I was trying to draw a parallel between them to show that Schache isn't a write off. I may have been looking at Reid thorough rose coloured glasses, which I tend to do.

In terms of Schache I'm going off the times I've seen him live in particular. Was pretty underwhelming. He's an athlete and a talent but he just couldn't get into the game.

For all my criticisms, if we managed to get him he's automatically a future gun.
 

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I am only comparing because of any assumption that Schaches 2nd year blues are due primarily to the Lions and their culture/structures.

We were all saying the same thing about Aish 2 years ago. A guy who had a gun 1st year then seriously fell off the pace in his 2nd, had some reported issues with the club about wanting to leave, and spent time sent back to the NEAFL.
A lot of us thought that we would get an Aish who would immediately get back to his 1st year trajectory... when really what we've seen since is more reflective of his 2nd year.

I am purely saying that you have to be vary wary in thinking that whatever has stalled Schaches development this year can be jusy blamed on Brissy and will go away the moment he gets to the Pies.

Because the player we saw in 2017 is not worth giving up Pick 6 for.
There is a lot more than that going on with them though. Part of it is to do with the poor culture that makes it hard for the young boys from interstate. But he is incredibly close to his family and friends back home and does not enjoy it at the Lions. He is torn between wanting to stay as it is the club his dad played for and he always wanted to follow in his footsteps or come home to be with his family. Aish just didn't like Brisbane because the culture was shit it was more clear cut
 

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Wasn’t Reid pushed in to defence after his first year?

I don’t think his ability is in question. More his frame of mind, specifically his desire to make it as an elite athlete. You have a kid here who actually wanted to be drafted by Brisbane, who in his second year has contemplated walking out during the year, only to re-sign. He then chose to drive home to Victoria rather than stay to watch/play with his team mates in the NEAFL grand final.

Now according to the Lions he was ‘cooked’ after looking at his gps readings. That raises alarm bells for two reasons. Either the Lions are being truthful and he’s legitimately cooked after only playing 9 senior afl games in addition to his 2 weeks of personal leave he was granted, which is fairly shocking for a second year player who came in to the system with big wraps on his endurance, or alternatively he wanted to get out of there and home ASAP
with no thought for his club or team mates. Given that his family lives in country Victoria, there’s no guarantee he’d even be happy in Melbourne long term.

I’ll be buggered if I’d be happy paying pick 6 for a guy with those kind of question marks over his head.
I think that is spot on. I would be 50;50 using 6 on him. Having said that if the club do the homework though and are convinced I would back them in. Still think 6 is overs so you'd probably get something back. If it was a mid 20's pick and you could get a Clarivino / Petty then you have a spine for next 10 years of McClarty, Petty, Moore, Schache and Grundy. It's tempting as it potentially solves your biggest issue pretty quickly.
 

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Pick 6 for Schache + pick 18 seems like a fair deal to me for a player who spent a lot of the year in the NEAFL and doesn't appear happy in Brisbane.

We are paying for his potential not output and with Brisbane likely to receive pick 19 as compensation for Rocky they'd be silly not to seriously consider it.

Get pick 18 and it's possible we could elevate it to 13 if Fasolo requests a trade to West Coast.

I already believe we should do the Schache deal regardless but if Fasolo wants to go back to WA then it's a no brainer for mine.
 

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The only excuse would be homesickness because the culture/structures are working pretty well for other young talls at the Lions.
Yeah all the local talks who get to go home to their families and kick it with there mates they have known for 10 plus years are going well so the culture must be great. You look at a club like Sydney and the effort the senior players make to get around the young interstate boys and it pays off the young blokes enjoy their time in Sydney and want to stay. In Brisbane the senior players act like a pack of campaigners and don't get around the kids at all that's why they all want to **** off home as there is nothing for them at the club
 

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Pick 6 for Schache + pick 18 seems like a fair deal to me for a player who spent a lot of the year in the NEAFL and doesn't appear happy in Brisbane.

We are paying for his potential not output and with Brisbane likely to receive pick 19 as compensation for Rocky they'd be silly not to seriously consider it.

Get pick 18 and it's possible we could elevate it to 13 if Fasolo requests a trade to West Coast.

I already believe we should do the Schache deal regardless but if Fasolo wants to go back to WA then it's a no brainer for mine.
But he is Under Contract so Lions are not Forced to do any Trades
 

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It would be an amazing outcome if we were able to sign Schache and take a nice KPD with a pick Brisbane sent back our way. If Schache was able to come on like we'd hope it would be genius, almost all of our problems would be solved. Go the draft for a KPF and it's going to take 3-4 years at best. Yuck. Then we're relying on Cox really making it big.
 

Apex36

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These are not things I'm willing to assess from outside. I see the talent and a need, if our recruiters are happy with his commitment levels then I'm sold.

Can't remember when Reid moved to defence, didn't think it was his second year. Either way his numbers were terrible for his first three years whether he was forward or back: 8 games in 3 years and only 2 in the third. All of a sudden his 4th year saw him play 21 games and double his disposal and mark average. Oh, played in a Premiership as well. So it can happen quickly.
Have to remeber that Reid came in to the system far less physically ready than Schache too when comparing them.
 

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Ok, just passing on what I heard from a mate......he got some pretty spot on info last trade period from this bloke so will see how all this pans out.

Will be a pretty quiet trade period for us.

Our focus is on either Lynch, Cameron or Patton next year with Lynch the priority and will be offering him 5 years @ 1.2mil.
If this fails then we'll have a crack at the other 2 but pretty confident of landing one of the 3.

Smith has supposedly advised us he has chosen us and we have offered 3 years @ 450000.

Bucks has met with Watts but we are unsure at this stage as not sure what the dees want for him.

Not interested in Schache at his stage as the lions want too much.

Will pass on any more info that I hear from him.

:thumbsu:
 
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