List Mgmt. Trade for ready made or draft?

Draft v Trade

  • Draft. Invest youth.

    Votes: 27 79.4%
  • Trade. Ready to go

    Votes: 7 20.6%

  • Total voters
    34

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Marcel Proust

"Oohh WADA ooga booga" {Jul 11 2013}
Sep 6, 2018
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After a quiet off-season ,

richmond have decent draft picks in what some say is a good draft class.

As discussed elsewhere, do you prefer the tigers HQ and list management to essentially rebuild? Via the draft. Hopefully finding the next generation of flag winning richmond players.

Or 'top up' with trading in more ready made options to compliment the successful list? (Maybe mid or early 20s age bracket)

The tiger trying to win a 4th Cotchin era flag is the main dish but the list management decisions may loom in the background.

Essentially a good problem competition for places in the senior team
 
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Marcel Proust

"Oohh WADA ooga booga" {Jul 11 2013}
Sep 6, 2018
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Tigers list atm.



Trade discussion
 

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smurfin

Club Legend
Apr 1, 2016
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Need to invest in the draft, if only to always have some first and second year players on peanuts to manage the total player payments.
We've had to delist Turner & English without giving them a real chance, and it might be similar for 2 or 3 of Martyn, Cumberland, Ralphsmith & Naish at the end of this season.

I've tended to think that there are enough half-decent ruckmen around that you can trade for one cheaply enough in their early to mid-20s rather than developing your own from their teens. Like we did with Maric & Nank (Hampson...), who have been great for us, but weren't in the Sandilands/Gawn/Grundy class.
Except for our cheap Category B options such as Soldo & Mate. Why I was a bit surprised with the Samson pick.
 

Frank Grimes

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May 8, 2007
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I'm in two minds about what to do.

On one hand we could try to extend the premeirship window by trading for ready made players. Geelong has tried this and it has kept them "there abouts" for about 8 years since the last flag. However, Hawthorn also tried it and it appears to be failing. I think the key difference is Geelong had a young Selwood at the time and recruited one of the top 3 midfielders of the competition (Dangerfield) to build their core. I don't think the topping up strategy will work unless if something like that can be pulled off.

Or we could try to do a transition to the "next generation" due to our good position in the draft (2 first rounders, 2 second rounders and 2 third rounders). Needless to say I really hope Geelong has a very poor season because it will benefit us if they do. However, even though we have a couple first rounders they are looking to be late first rounders. This will diminish the chance of picking up an elite type of player like Dusty, Fyfe or Dangerfield.

In the end I went with replenishing through the draft because of the reduction of the salary cap. Even if we have enough room in the salary cap it is better to go for a free agent than to trade.

The only scenario I can see if trading is if someone elite wants to come to us and we have room in the cap for them (e.g Cripps, Fyfe). But I think that is a very unlikely scenario.
 
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daird

Senior List
Oct 12, 2017
289
905
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Even without trading in players I don't see us dropping out of the 8 anytime soon. By the time some of our key players are retiring others should be stepping up - only worries are Key Forward/Back spots but hopefully any number of CCJ/Biggy/Chol can stand up, and hopefully we can draft someone like Van Rooyen this year too.
 

fargothegreat

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Oct 8, 2011
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I think our list is transitioning to something a lot more even than the 'stars and roleplayers' setup we began our dynasty with. The money won't be there to throw at one absolute gun. It'll instead be spread more evenly, similar to the Cats list model.
 

Meteoric Rise

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Feb 4, 2008
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My view is you don’t rule anything out. You place a draft pick value on all the potential draftees, a salary and draft pick value on all the potential trades who might appeal to the club, and a salary value on all potential Free Agents who might appeal.

You just don’t get involved in paying overs anywhere for anyone, unless they are truly the missing piece in the Premiership puzzle, say a bit like a Brian Lake for the Hawks after 2012.

I don’t mind bringing in guys like Maric, Caddy, Prestia, Grigg, Houli, Lynch, Nankervis and potentially now Gallucci. Go after these guys when they are 25 or younger. So if there is a decent value 20, 22 or 24yo out there who might be available, trade a pick for him, I have no problem with that. If 26 or older they need to be filling an obvious urgent need for a tilt at a flag.

Otherwise, use the picks at the draft. I think our 25 or younger players already includes a nice array of playing ability and potential leadership:

Soldo, Castagna, Rioli, Baker, Graham, Bolton, Coleman-Jones, Balta, Collier-Dawkins, Stack, Ross, is 11 strong or likely types and you can bet another couple from the rest will prove decent AFL players. So there could be essentially 14 of our 2026 team already at the club. From 6 decent picks this season you can probably expect to add another 3. The odd Free Agent and some picks from the next few seasons…you’ve got a decent 2026 team already sort of locked in. Not wise to interfere with that process by reaching for quick fixes now.
 

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Dr Tigris

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Aug 19, 2009
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FA/trade for someone who will fil a strategic need over the next few years. That is only a JR replacement or maybe KPD (not sure of this need though). Or if someone like the Bont came it'd be good to trade.

Otherwise draft into the deepest field for ages - 2021 + heaps from 2020.

So I'm saying go the draft, unless something really good comes along that will likely lead to another flag, then stuff the picks.
 

Meteoric Rise

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FA/trade for someone who will fil a strategic need over the next few years. That is only a JR replacement or maybe KPD (not sure of this need though). Or if someone like the Bont came it'd be good to trade.

Otherwise draft into the deepest field for ages - 2021 + heaps from 2020.

So I'm saying go the draft, unless something really good comes along that will likely lead to another flag, then stuff the picks.
I think that is right too, this draft in particular is likely to carry a 30% or higher premium on picks below a certain level, ie probably all of our picks. As you have pointed out, this is due to the carryover 2020 talent in the pool.
 

Soberian Tiger

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Jul 25, 2018
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Need to invest in the draft, if only to always have some first and second year players on peanuts to manage the total player payments.
We've had to delist Turner & English without giving them a real chance, and it might be similar for 2 or 3 of Martyn, Cumberland, Ralphsmith & Naish at the end of this season.

I've tended to think that there are enough half-decent ruckmen around that you can trade for one cheaply enough in their early to mid-20s rather than developing your own from their teens. Like we did with Maric & Nank (Hampson...), who have been great for us, but weren't in the Sandilands/Gawn/Grundy class.
Except for our cheap Category B options such as Soldo & Mate. Why I was a bit surprised with the Samson pick.
Guess the Soldo injury and CCJ suspension had a bit to do with that.

If Nank goes down in round one the cupboard's rather bare.
 

Phar Ace

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My view is you don’t rule anything out. You place a draft pick value on all the potential draftees, a salary and draft pick value on all the potential trades who might appeal to the club, and a salary value on all potential Free Agents who might appeal.

You just don’t get involved in paying overs anywhere for anyone, unless they are truly the missing piece in the Premiership puzzle, say a bit like a Brian Lake for the Hawks after 2012.

I don’t mind bringing in guys like Maric, Caddy, Prestia, Grigg, Houli, Lynch, Nankervis and potentially now Gallucci. Go after these guys when they are 25 or younger. So if there is a decent value 20, 22 or 24yo out there who might be available, trade a pick for him, I have no problem with that. If 26 or older they need to be filling an obvious urgent need for a tilt at a flag.

Otherwise, use the picks at the draft. I think our 25 or younger players already includes a nice array of playing ability and potential leadership:

Soldo, Castagna, Rioli, Baker, Graham, Bolton, Coleman-Jones, Balta, Collier-Dawkins, Stack, Ross, is 11 strong or likely types and you can bet another couple from the rest will prove decent AFL players. So there could be essentially 14 of our 2026 team already at the club. From 6 decent picks this season you can probably expect to add another 3. The odd Free Agent and some picks from the next few seasons…you’ve got a decent 2026 team already sort of locked in. Not wise to interfere with that process by reaching for quick fixes now.
Agree, if we are ever going the get any extra leverage for being a destination Club it is now, and we must polish that, make it shine and choose wisely!
 

Infamy

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I don't see why it has to be one or the other
With 6 picks in the first 3 rounds this year, we won't have the list space to take all of them
So it will either have to be group them together to trade up in the draft, or package them up for a trade
Even if we do trade, we'll still be able to take a good batch of kids
 

Jonesracing82

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IMO the way fwd is to use FA for "ready to go" & use the draft for youth. Hawks did the FA part right in thier time but the error they made, which is now biting them on the backside is they traded all thier draft picks for "ready to go" & the youth have suffered as a result. Ideally a mix of "RTG" & Youth but it's important to use the Draft.
 

theyellowsash

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Feb 9, 2009
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i say draft. our group is getting older and theres a few key holes (after retirements) without any obvious replacements at the moment. our young midfield talent is worryingly thin.

plus we've seen that going the experienced route doesnt work and just ends up in teams sacrificing draft picks to try and stay up, but merely delaying the inevitable and then falling in a massive hole (brisbane, hawks, sydney, carlton post ratten, stkilda kinda). the only reason the cats can do it is because they can cheat it by using free agency to sell the beach/farm life to homesick babies.

going the draft route doesnt mean bottoming right down to last. we should be able to stay around 12-10th spot with smart recruiting for a few years and then head back up again when guys like rioli, graham, castagna, baker, short etc are hitting their mid-late 20s, just like the current group.
 

Meteoric Rise

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IMO the way fwd is to use FA for "ready to go" & use the draft for youth. Hawks did the FA part right in thier time but the error they made, which is now biting them on the backside is they traded all thier draft picks for "ready to go" & the youth have suffered as a result. Ideally a mix of "RTG" & Youth but it's important to use the Draft.
Broadly agree with this but say someone like a 23-24yo Prestia is a player type you need and might be available in a trade. You trade picks to fair value don’t you?

I definitely agree the way the Hawks did it wasn’t right when they started targeting premium players like O’Meara and Wingard and just paid whatever it took in draft picks to get them in, as if their best previous form would be automatically attained at Hawthorn and there is no downside risk to price into the trade. I really don’t want Richmond to ever do that sort of thing.

I don’t think you can just use Free Agency or just trades or just the draft ultimately.

Just Free Agency = too much cap spaced used because these guys are mostly available for the highest or near the highest bidder.

Just trades = you may do a bit better cap space wise if you are lucky but will use too much draft capital to get quality players in at reasonable salaries.

Just draft = possible quality list in the future but due to variance in development of different types of players some puzzle pieces missing.

The thing is Free Agency, the Trade Period and the Draft happen sequentially. The Draft is always last in the sequence. So if you can get good value Free Agents and trades then take them and the draft is the fall back position. Free Agents and trades are probably not often great value so you mainly should default to the Draft.

Let’s go back to say 2015 to get a concept of relative value from each method of bringing players in. Let’s compare each traded player and Free Agent with the player taken in the draft with the compensation received just to give a bit of a vague concept.

Significant Free Agents


PlayerPlayer taken with comp pickWinning choice
SucklingMathiesonFA
S SelwoodSydney used as points for MillsDraft
LuenbergerBrisbane used as points for HipwoodDraft
5 other FA’s changed hands for no comp and none worked out any good


Significant Trades

DangerfieldWayne Milera & Mitch HibberdTrade(though Milera could be a very good player yet)
ReddenBen McKayTrade(though McKay could yet change that)
Lachie Henderson Jarrod BerryDraft
Harley Bennell & pick used for Darcy TuckerFiorini & BalicNo winners only losers
JettaSinclair(straight player swap)indeterminate
MelkshamRedmanhard to say, trade ahead at this stage
AndersonBurtonclose, maybe Draft
Curtley HamptonDarcy(Freo)Draft
Townsendpick not usedTrade
RosaTom ColeDraft

Too many to list the lot but this gives a taste. The draft does seem to get better outcomes overall from this small sample.
 

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