List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency IV - hypotheticals etc. (Continued in Part V)

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Killer_Mike

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Chris Mayne and Daniel Wells have had little impact. Trealor has been racking up 30+ with rampant OP. He's a good get. Probably not advisable with 1 key forward and an already solid midfield, but still good
The point is not that he has been good. The point is that he has added little to the results of the club.

I prefer to go to the draft and develop and I think history tells us that that's the best method. Topping up with trading when you have the depth of young talent is fine but history is littered with teams that overestimate their talent and it never results in a premiership.
 

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TheGrizz

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Anyone who says Collingwood won the Treloar trade is delusional. Imagine how good Logue and Weideman would look right now book ending that side?
Logue and McKay* would be better, but that is just semantics.
Your point though is valid. To top 10 picks is a massive price to pay for midfielder.
Especially when you look over history and see that most key forwards that are any good are normally taken in the first round.
I wouldn't want is to pay 2x first rounders for Kelly or Martim, would rather back Dodoro in to continue his recent good drafting
 
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The point is not that he has been good. The point is that he has added little to the results of the club.

I prefer to go to the draft and develop and I think history tells us that that's the best method. Topping up with trading when you have the depth of young talent is fine but history is littered with teams that overestimate their talent and it never results in a premiership.
But the same Trealor deal made with our team already stacked with Daniher's, Hurley's and Hookers lol. He would've had an impact at that price
 
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Aren't all Libba's issues related to his off field 'activities' & he is therefore not applying himself correctly to his craft? As I haven't heard of any other reasons for his fall from grace, he is clearly in the 'Do Not Want At Any Price' category.
Woosha has had success dealing with players who enjoy said 'activities'. If there's anyone who could get the best out of him it's our man
 

Killer_Mike

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But the same Trealor deal made with our team already stacked with Daniher's, Hurley's and Hookers lol. He would've had an impact at that price
Of course he would have an impact. Can't guarantee a flag though and as I have said many times the odds are stacked in the favour of the side that first loads the side with young talent first and then when they reach the top they get guys in to fill spots. This method allows you to negotiate wages on your terms because you can effectively sell them premiership success.
 
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Of course he would have an impact. Can't guarantee a flag though and as I have said many times the odds are stacked in the favour of the side that first loads the side with young talent first and then when they reach the top they get guys in to fill spots. This method allows you to negotiate wages on your terms because you can effectively sell them premiership success.
No one guarantees it, Buddy to Sydney would have to be the closest thing I've seen to a sure thing and look how that went.

We could take our picks to the draft and pick up 2 David Myers and watch Kelly dominate us at Carlton - or relinquish 2 years of the first round, which has happened before and we ended with Merrett and Raz, but with Josh Kelly as well? Done - sign next to the X and put a number on it Mr. Kelly.
 

Killer_Mike

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No one guarantees it, Buddy to Sydney would have to be the closest thing I've seen to a sure thing and look how that went.

We could take our picks to the draft and pick up 2 David Myers and watch Kelly dominate us at Carlton - or relinquish 2 years of the first round, which has happened before and we ended with Merrett and Raz, but with Josh Kelly as well? Done - sign next to the X and put a number on it Mr. Kelly.
I like to use Sydney as the example for the Buddy reason alone. They had Tippet, Cola, Buddy and then a swag of top 5 picks that the AFL calls the "Academy Players" and they still couldn't beat Hawthorn who used the draft method. Geelong also went the draft method.
 

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Am I wrong that I feel Parish can be just as good if not extremely close to Zerrett?

Kelly is obviously better than Parish right now and most likely still will be for the rest of his career. Would I expect a straight swap no GWS would ask for a little more and rightly so

So what I'm getting at is we shouldn't trade a potential Zerrett AND a 1st round pick for Kelly. I could use the same example for Oliver it Demons wanted to get Kelly, not an inch of Essendon bias
Parish will be very good. Like Cousins good in my eyes. Runs in very good lines, attacks the ball hard, uses it well.
Parish and a 1st is overs, Parish alone is unders. Perhaps Parish and our 2nd if we were doing that deal, but i wouldn't do it.

2017 & 2018 1st for Kelly and their 2018 2nd.

That said, i don't see him leaving. Not yet. 3 year deal should get signed and he may ask for a trade in 2.

Would rather be talking to them about Smith if he's keen to come to Vic.

Anyone who says Collingwood won the Treloar trade is delusional. Imagine how good Logue and Weideman would look right now book ending that side?
Wouldn't call Logue a book end as such, but he's a very good athletic rebounder. With that pick, the pies would likely have gone Brodie (yet another mid, but a gun inside replacement for Pendlebury) or Marshall (KPF stocks are ragged).

GWS for their part got Hopper (who they would have got one way or another) and Taranto, but lost McCarthy in the process too.
All in all they didn't walk away with much from Treloar.
Could have loaded up on Hopper picks with a different trade. Taranto is a good get, but so were a lot of the first round last year, and it took more than the Treloar pick to get to him.
 

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I think this sums it up pretty well.

Jono Brown uses Collingwood giving up two first rounders to get Treloar. Safe to say Treloar has had little impact on Collingwoods results.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st...s/news-story/56c35e0dda27da0a00ef37108f3945f0

"Brown added that the Saints desperately need a star midfielder and should be prepared to make a bold deal, just like Collingwood did for Adam Treloar nearly two years ago."

“It’s a big call. You’ve probably got to assess the draft … it’s Picks 7 and 8 at this stage, but it’s a lot to give up for one player,” Lloyd told 3AW’s Sportsday.

“I’d still take Picks 7 and 8 over Josh Kelly.”
7 & 8 would probably be the biggest deal ever done? Maybe Judd is the leader (Kennedy the best fwd in the comp, plus picks 3 and 20)

Saints need flair and star power. They are a very vanilla side and are missing the guns to really threaten anyone (i.e. there is no one to tag at the Saints).
Kelly is that. Ready to go, proven at AFL level.
Picks 7 & 8 could be two of them. I don't know this years crop very well, so i can't comment. But if it was last years draft, there is no way I'd be giving up 2x top 10 picks for Kelly.
 

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Killer_Mike

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Hawthorn also did unbelievably well out of free agency/recruiting from others.
Yes they did but they were astute purchases. They got players that could fill a role for them and they got them for unders when they were already at the top.

Burgoyne is the obvious one and he was purchased the year after they won their first flag.

And after that they got Hale, Gunston and Frawley. None superstars but all played significant roles and they got them without giving up lots.
 

Killer_Mike

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7 & 8 would probably be the biggest deal ever done? Maybe Judd is the leader (Kennedy the best fwd in the comp, plus picks 3 and 20)

Saints need flair and star power. They are a very vanilla side and are missing the guns to really threaten anyone (i.e. there is no one to tag at the Saints).
Kelly is that. Ready to go, proven at AFL level.
Picks 7 & 8 could be two of them. I don't know this years crop very well, so i can't comment. But if it was last years draft, there is no way I'd be giving up 2x top 10 picks for Kelly.
As I continue to say, give me evidence of a side that has given up that much that has gone on and had flag success?

99% of Premiership side are built through the draft.
 
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I like to use Sydney as the example for the Buddy reason alone. They had Tippet, Cola, Buddy and then a swag of top 5 picks that the AFL calls the "Academy Players" and they still couldn't beat Hawthorn who used the draft method. Geelong also went the draft method.
Tippett has ****** them for mine. If it was just Bud they would have at least 1

As I continue to say, give me evidence of a side that has given up that much that has gone on and had flag success?

99% of Premiership side are built through the draft.
I reckon what we're building around now from the draft is going to be scary good.
 

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But we have KPP's everywhere... it's legitimately our midfield issues now. Happy to do that Trelor deal of this years 1st and next years 1st for Kelly & a 2nd.

I think you'd be crazy to say no to that.
I am nervous our FF stocks are running on empty.
Not sure Stewart can play #1 target. Daniher is too valuable as a CHF.
Hooker is 29 (?). Gives us 2-3 years to find and develop his replacement and they are currently not on the list.

Tom Lynch should be one of our top targets.
Our midfield issues stem from the age gap between Heppell & Merrett. In that group, if one or two of Jerrett, Kav, NOB, Ashby or Browne had come on we'd be ok.
But they didn't, so we're waiting on 20 year olds and under in Laverde, Langford, Mutch, Clarke and Begley to rapidly develop into AFL ready mids.

midfield depth is there, as i see all 5 of those as solid prospects to step up and take over from Watson, Myers and Goddard over the years.
Unfortunately we can't freeze time on guys like Zaka and Heppell, who would be primed for a premiership window if those guys were 2 years older and further down the development track.

That 2010-2012 draft period has hurt more than 2013 and 2014 did in the long run.
In that time, Heppell, Daniher, Bags and Gleeson have gone on to become a player
2 rookies (Jenkins and Hibberd) are playing elsewhere
 

Killer_Mike

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Tippett has ****** them for mine. If it was just Bud they would have at least 1



I reckon what we're building around now from the draft is going to be scary good.
I always discount anything Sydney do purely because of the leg up they get.

Anything they do comes with an asterix for mine.
 

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I am nervous our FF stocks are running on empty.
Not sure Stewart can play #1 target. Daniher is too valuable as a CHF.
Hooker is 29 (?). Gives us 2-3 years to find and develop his replacement and they are currently not on the list.

Tom Lynch should be one of our top targets.
Our midfield issues stem from the age gap between Heppell & Merrett. In that group, if one or two of Jerrett, Kav, NOB, Ashby or Browne had come on we'd be ok.
But they didn't, so we're waiting on 20 year olds and under in Laverde, Langford, Mutch, Clarke and Begley to rapidly develop into AFL ready mids.

midfield depth is there, as i see all 5 of those as solid prospects to step up and take over from Watson, Myers and Goddard over the years.
Unfortunately we can't freeze time on guys like Zaka and Heppell, who would be primed for a premiership window if those guys were 2 years older and further down the development track.

That 2010-2012 draft period has hurt more than 2013 and 2014 did in the long run.
In that time, Heppell, Daniher, Bags and Gleeson have gone on to become a player
2 rookies (Jenkins and Hibberd) are playing elsewhere
I know what you're saying but the fact is, is that it's hard to attract a big FA and if you have a big fish FA like Kelly who nominates us then you pull the trigger.

If you take Dusty out of Richmond then they don't make the 8. I believe Kelly will have that sort of influence.
 

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Anyone who says Collingwood won the Treloar trade is delusional. Imagine how good Logue and Weideman would look right now book ending that side?
Collingwood did the trade because they thought they'd move up the ladder straight away.

The 2 you have named have done sweet FA. Logue might not even be a key tall. Probably a third tall which Howe has locked for years to come. Weideman is still heaps far off. All draft picks are risks. No risk in Treloar he is a very good player.

Hindsight is stupid in this trade untill about 10 years down the track
 
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Yes they did but they were astute purchases. They got players that could fill a role for them and they got them for unders when they were already at the top.

Burgoyne is the obvious one and he was purchased the year after they won their first flag.

And after that they got Hale, Gunston and Frawley. None superstars but all played significant roles and they got them without giving up lots.
Then they spent 3 1sts on 2 mids haha
 

citizen-erased

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As I continue to say, give me evidence of a side that has given up that much that has gone on and had flag success?

99% of Premiership side are built through the draft.
Agree.
Its risky and i were the Saints, i'd be looking for something back with Kelly if i was giving up 7 & 8 (or any club stumping up 2x 1st round picks who aren't a top 4 proposition right now).

Tigers would be the ones who would be thinking the 2x 1st round picks they hold this year might be worth gambling on Kelly, if their cap allows both Martin and Kelly in it.

As for other sides:
Adelaide gave up 2x 1st rounders to get access to Brad Crouch.
Dees gave up for Hogan (though got 20 back)
Suns have up 2x 1st rounders for Martin

Only ones i can think of and all involve mini draft players (i.e. future 1st rd players).
Only Adelaide are contending, though Melbourne aren't far off and had Hogan had better luck this year, i still rate them top 4.
 

Killer_Mike

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Agree.
Its risky and i were the Saints, i'd be looking for something back with Kelly if i was giving up 7 & 8 (or any club stumping up 2x 1st round picks who aren't a top 4 proposition right now).

Tigers would be the ones who would be thinking the 2x 1st round picks they hold this year might be worth gambling on Kelly, if their cap allows both Martin and Kelly in it.

As for other sides:
Adelaide gave up 2x 1st rounders to get access to Brad Crouch.
Dees gave up for Hogan (though got 20 back)
Suns have up 2x 1st rounders for Martin

Only ones i can think of and all involve mini draft players (i.e. future 1st rd players).
Only Adelaide are contending, though Melbourne aren't far off and had Hogan had better luck this year, i still rate them top 4.
I agree on the Richmond one it's a risk worth taking because most of their A grade talent is mature so topping up now makes sense.

Saints for mine don't have enough talent and like us need to continue to add depth.
 
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